Biting the hand that feeds

Gomer_X · Post by **Gomer_X** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:05 am

chuck wrote: There is a baseline for recording in any area. I can't believe that in any area that you record in regularly you can't start from the last settings and be damn close the following week. I know alot of people who do home recording and they aren't that far off from thier base settings from one session to another.

I've run sound (as an amatuer) on the same board on a weekly basis. I've set up everything the same, and used the same settings, but sometimes things just didn't work right. There are just too many variables. I realize if you've never done it, it probably seems easy, but the reality is different.

Post by **dann** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 1:28 pm

Chuck, our audio issues have always been a sore subject. There is a combination of factors involved here, questionable equipment, bandwidth issues, mistakes on our part, and software issues. You'd think after 143 episodes we should have made stellar progress on that end, but such is not the case yet. We have not ripped out the polish of TWIT, IT Conversations or similar shows. While I suspect we never will get that level of quality without significant costs to our infrastructure, I'm sure we can do a bit better than we do now.

I'd like to look into traffic shaping, it interests me and if it is something that will benefit the show, why not. That's what we are about, here, learning and having fun.

Our current format has been going now for over a year, maybe it is time for a change. While there are a number of people that enjoy the banter, I think we should have some more technical and Linux relevant content. To that end, a bit more pre-planning of topics and show notes would benefit us in the long run. Trying to always wing it from memory is not always conducive to a smooth running show and tends to smack right into the guesst remaining unfinished at times.

As for the profanity, show 142 really pushed it there. Man was there a lot of profanity in that show. I can understand why a number of people were concerned.

schotty · Post by **schotty** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:46 pm

To be honest the only audio issues I have ever noticed (on the mp3 files) is the skype calls. It seems that due to either the pud on the other side, or with skype itself, the audio levels fluctuate far too much.

The gang sounds fine, week in and week out. That is my observation after listening from episode 60 something.

granduke · Post by **granduke** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 9:17 am

I kinda enjoy that the show sometimes has poor audio. The 15 minutes it took to connect to the woman from Tux Magazine has some of the best banter and I learned some things about asterisk. And it's interesting to find out if the guest will hear Pat or not.
The audio gives the show a homebrew folksy feel that connects it with its listeners. I, as a linux novice, take some solace in knowing that four of the most experienced linux podcasters have problems such as I when it takes me half an afternoon to get a mount share working.
My only concern is for the guests as they sometimes struggle during the interview. They are often professionals who have have been interviewed dozens of times and usually get through fine.
I have no problem with the show.

snarkout · Post by **snarkout** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 3:02 pm

I think the audio quality is an issue. I honestly haven't listened to an entire show since the Linux World Expo shows. This is primarily because the focus of my life has taken a drastic turn, both at home and at work (new baby, new position, etc). However, I have to admit that when I do have the chance to listen, having to battle the audio is a fairly major turnoff.

As for the banter, fsck people who don't like it - it's one of the main reasons I listen to the show.

brakthepoet · Post by **brakthepoet** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 5:24 pm

dann wrote:Our current format has been going now for over a year, maybe it is time for a change. While there are a number of people that enjoy the banter, I think we should have some more technical and Linux relevant content.

I don't care whether the profanity stays or goes, or you closely follow show notes or completely wing it, or you adopt particular technologies for the show. I figure you'll do the best that you can with what you have. What's most important to me is that you keep doing a show that's fun for you.

Right now you four are doing a show that you enjoy. It's obvious in the way you interact with each other, the guests, and your listeners. The day that the show becomes a chore and not a joy will be the beginning of the end for TLLTS. Whatever you four decide to do, be sure it keeps it fun. It's because we know what a good time you're having that we listeners enjoy it.

godzero · Post by **godzero** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:22 am

Your current format has worked for me. I like the "4 guys/linux-nerds get together and shoot the bull" angle.

As an ex-musician... I wish I was in your neck of the woods so I could look at your setup and give pointers.

Hell, heat up your levels to +10db and stream at 8Kbps for all I care.. I'll still listen.

EDIT:

Another thing. As for the language... I'm an adult, have been since '88. F bombs don't hurt me. I was the one who commented on LaGER #1 as to that I wanted to play it for my girls (15, 9 and 6). *I* will censor the F bombs to my choosing. I know what I want my kids to hear.. and no-one else could possibly know. Just give me the raw feed and I can take it from there.

You guys are doing great. Please keep it up.

EDIT2:
"Daddy has a gun!" LOL.. greatest

godzero · Post by **godzero** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:17 am

More notes: (I promise to try not abduct this thread)

My areas of experience:

As I said.. I was a musician (keyboards.. punk, trance, house) and was anal about sound quality (bang for buck)
Programming, linux.. since '81 and '02
Networking since '90
Telephone systems since '90
electronics since late 70s

What Dan said about the problems with phones: totally TRUE. (it's the 4wire to 2 wire converter that causes the probs)

For any recording, pickups (mics) are hugely important.. compressor pretty big too.

Bandwidth: completely, unforgivingly brick-wall type prob. Shaping helps little because there will be a point of failure. Second note: try speex ~8-16kbps if you can (wide band mode) (speex is great in this range)

Levels: max peak on any one feed should be max -6dB (yelling, 1 foot) or less

Compressor: only can tell in-person

For temp files.. always use wav or flac, 44.1khz or more

Any other Qs: ask me (john.godzero at that g mail thing)

EDIT:

Again, there are ways to record land line calls. I've got an uncle who was a lawyer. Some 6-7 years ago I remember him having a device that he would use at his home office that plugged in between the handset and the base. It had a plug coming off of it that he connected into his mini tape recorder. I'd imagine that with little to no effort you could take that plug and pt it into your board or sound card to get that audio off the call to hear the callers and a speaker phone so that the caller can hear your guys.

Did your uncle try to do more than 1 phone call at once, or on a pc?

Remember the words ground-loop. Importaint to remember. That's the hum you hear when you plug 1 piece of audio equipment into another. At 3 pieces it gets really bad. There are ways around it (multiple phone lines with 600ohm to 600ohm impedence matching transformers, etc) but we're talking $s here.

EDIT2:
Someone.. for the love of god... take my keyboard away before I respond again!

snarkout · Post by **snarkout** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:47 am

What Dan said about the problems with phones: totally TRUE. (it's the 4wire to 2 wire converter that causes the probs)

You lost me there.

CptnObvious999 · Post by **CptnObvious999** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:43 am

I agree with basically everything godzero said

I have not seen any speex audio files nor had a chance to compare that and OGG Vorbis so I don't know how much better it is but I would assume it would be pretty good considering its by the same guys that did Vorbis and Theora IIRC. The one problem with that it that it has even less support than Vorbis, although I am pretty sure Rockbox supports it so I could boot up into that and Gstreamer has a plug-in and Xine supports it so I could listen to it in a fair amount of player, don't know about everyone else though.

As far as the cussing I never notice it as long as you guys don't do it as much as rappers I see no problem with it and it can actually make things more funny sometimes. Although I am not around little kids when I am playing it, actually I'm usually alone on my computer so maybe I'm a little biased.

godzero · Post by **godzero** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:56 pm

Snarkout wrote:
What Dan said about the problems with phones: totally TRUE. (it's the 4wire to 2 wire converter that causes the probs)
You lost me there.

Umm.. The Dan part or the 2/4 wire part?

The Dan part:

Back on page two Dan referred to the echos, ground loops etc that are involved with multiple phone lines interfacing to 1 device (PC in this case)

The 2 to 4 wire part:

The 2 wire part of the converter is what is actually hooked up to the wires going to your house (red and green - center two wires... the other 2 are in hopes of selling you a second line).. the 4 wire part went to the actual equipment that reads dtmf & routs your call. 2 wires are send + & -, the others are receive + & -. I personally usually worked on the T3 and bigger satellite links.

godzero · Post by **godzero** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:48 pm

CptnObvious999 wrote:I agree with basically everything godzero said

I have not seen any speex audio files nor had a chance to compare that and OGG Vorbis so I don't know how much better it is but I would assume it would be pretty good considering its by the same guys that did Vorbis and Theora IIRC. The one problem with that it that it has even less support than Vorbis, although I am pretty sure Rockbox supports it so I could boot up into that and Gstreamer has a plug-in and Xine supports it so I could listen to it in a fair amount of player, don't know about everyone else though.

As far as the cussing I never notice it as long as you guys don't do it as much as rappers I see no problem with it and it can actually make things more funny sometimes. Although I am not around little kids when I am playing it, actually I'm usually alone on my computer so maybe I'm a little biased.

Speex is a great little voice-oriented codec. I was only suggesting it for the VOIP parts. It has the advantage of having 2 payloads - the low end & high end. If bitrate drops it will (hopefully) revert to 1/2 rate. This codec is only really good for VOIP or text to speech applications ( ie: the the VOIP part of the conversation). Look into speex for more info. I again suggest bps>8k, WB.

Tsuroerusu · Post by **Tsuroerusu** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:07 am

godzero wrote:Speex is a great little voice-oriented codec. I was only suggesting it for the VOIP parts.

Your suggestion is true today, Kopete 0.12, which should be a part of the next version of KDE (3.5.4) uses it for their implementation of libjingle, which is Google's voice chat protocol which they released under the BSD license, big props to Google for that, finally we'll have something superior to Skype that's open source so it won't stay unmaintained.

snarkout · Post by **snarkout** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 7:37 am

godzero wrote:
Snarkout wrote:
What Dan said about the problems with phones: totally TRUE. (it's the 4wire to 2 wire converter that causes the probs)
You lost me there.
Umm.. The Dan part or the 2/4 wire part?

The Dan part:

Back on page two Dan referred to the echos, ground loops etc that are involved with multiple phone lines interfacing to 1 device (PC in this case)

The 2 to 4 wire part:

The 2 wire part of the converter is what is actually hooked up to the wires going to your house (red and green - center two wires... the other 2 are in hopes of selling you a second line).. the 4 wire part went to the actual equipment that reads dtmf & routs your call. 2 wires are send + & -, the others are receive + & -. I personally usually worked on the T3 and bigger satellite links.

I've never seen a 4 wire pots line - that's where you lost me. Most places I've been, honestly, there's a major push for 2 wire t1 at this point. Mostly, though, I don't understand what converter we're talking about here. IME, there are 2 wires leaving the CO, 2 wires leading into and leaving the cross box, and 2 wires into the customer prem (though many houses are wired for more pairs to the dmarc). In the home, very often I've seen those two wires jumpered to 4 wires to provide the same dial tone on jacks that are fed off of two different terminals. Is this what you're talking about?