Why software Sucks and What you Can Do About It Debate

[mowestusa]

These are just some ideas. I'm no usability expert and I am the wrong person to be asking as I am not a general user. Maybe we need to get some general users' opinions.

When I think about all this stuff I keep getting stuck here. What are the things that a "geek" user wants to do that a general user has no use for? But let's limit this to ordinary desktop computing. Browsing, Email, Photos, Video, CD/DVD burning, Office Application, File Sharing, Backups, (are there more?).

Surely a general user wants those things to just work. But ANY user wants those things to just work. Don't they?

Oh, I'm coming so late to this conversation, and this thread has gone in so many different directions, but I really wanted to add to what kind of started this thread, Dann's book review and usability in Linux.

A friend asked me about three weeks ago to help him get Linux running on an old old laptop that he picked up for $15. I did have the time these last three weeks to get together with him. He got bored waiting for me, bought a Ubuntu CD for $10 from somewhere. Installed it to a spare drive he had for a much nicer and newer laptop that he has. Certainly a much better experience than what I could have cobbled together for him on this supper old and supper low memory laptop that he had.

He was amazed. He thought I would just full of it when I talked about Linux, but Ubuntu blew him away. He couldn't believe that he could just open a Word or Excel file in OpenOffice edit it, save it, and take it back to Word and Excel without any issues at all. He couldn't believe that the wireless card just worked, and worked better under Linux (I was happy to hear that one, because wireless is not always such a great experience), and he didn't have to reboot his laptop to plug in a USB stick like he was doing with Windows XP (strange Windows problem, but I'm glad it gave Linux another point). If he can get connected to an email foldier for an online class that he is taking right now, he said he is just going to leave Windows completely on his everyday laptop. That is the only thing left that he needs to set up and get working. He has only been using it for about two weeks now.

He is going to put DSL on his old laptop and see what it gives him. He has three old laptops all with 32 megs of ram or 16 megs of ram. I'm hoping DSL will work out, otherwise he said he might be willing to max out the ram in the three old laptops that he has.

Back to usability. Like Dann mentioned on the show he is used to buying his software in a store, and just loading it on. That is why he went and ordered Linux CD's for $10 (he also couldn't figure out how to burn an ISO file). However, when I explained burning ISO's he realized his mistake. He also had no idea about "apt-get" or synaptic. When I showed him synaptic and it clicked that it gave him access to all kinds of different software that would just be downloaded, installed, and menu items created, he fell in love.

So are people used to doing things one way, and do we need to meet them where they are at. Well, I guess it was good that some place ripped him off by selling him $10 Ubuntu and DSL CDs because he did try Linux without me because of these "stores". At the same time, with a little show and tell, his software install questions disappeared, and he immediately fell in love with a new way to use his computer and install software. I guess, I'm a big believer in LUGs because this is what a LUG can do. It can with a little show and tell session cast off usability issues that the general user might have. Now if we can just keep the general user from getting scared off at the first LUG meeting he or she attends because of the "geek" speak.

Anyway, I just wanted to add a positive story for Linux usability. I would not consider my friend super tech savvy. He isn't afraid to take apart computers, but that is because he has taken apart electronics his whole life. He can reinstall Windows, so installing Linux was not too hard for him. He is no system admin, nor a geek, and he is not the type that goes out of his way to learn new ways of doing the same thing he has always done. I would consider him a general Window's user who knows how to install new software on Windows, reinstall Windows, and knows how to hook up the parts of a computer. He really is not advanced in diagnosing hardware and software issues.

[shopRatt]

As a general home end user <K|X>Ubuntu is a great starting point. And the neat thing is that as your needs grow, the packages are out there to allow you to expand your system as you see fit. If you decide that you need to get 'under the hood' you have the option to drop down to a shell and bang away and the command line.

Good point chuck. I got my daughter to try Linux via Fedora Core 3. She is 12 now. She really lost interest and finally stopped using it. About 8-9 months ago she saw me install Kubuntu and she liked the look of it. I wipped out FC3 on her machine and Installed Kubuntu. She likes it and uses it as much as her Windows partition. I still can't get her to totally remove herself from Windows, she will have to do that on her own. She asks me all the time to install software on it because she is getting more interested in her system. I still have not gone over the command line with her because I don't want to get her too confused. She uses the GUI to install software with me present. I would agree that Kubuntu/Ubuntu is a great starting point.

[Tsuroerusu]

I see a lot of talk about what we need and want and how things should be done. Is all this talk accompanied by any action? The source code is open and the development tools are free for a reason. Go write something.

Like I mentioned earlier, I can't even write a hello world program in C!

That's your problem. Open source is not a democracy, you only get to vote if you contribute code or money.

LOL, well, I have never been much of a programmer, and probably never will, since I just don't have the logics for math or programming in it's entirety.

I'm pretty darn good at writing. The way I feel that I "contribute" back is by introducing new people to GNU/Linux and helping them along, which you also could call advocacy and support. I've also written an article that summarizes the history of GNU/Linux, and I've got another giant one that I just need to spell- and gramma check. Plus in addition to that, I've also bought OpenBSD 3.9, and I intend to donate a few bucks to KDE when my student budget is a little more stable.

Anyway, that's just my two cents on what I do.

TLLTS uses Asterisk most of the time, I know this for a fact, as I myself has been one a few times!

Pat, Dann, Linc? Could I get some confirmation on this?

We use Asterisk all the time for the phone interviews and shows where we can't get together. In the beginning we used Skype regularly but now we keep it around solely as a backup. I can't remember the last time we used it.

Pat, question for you. How much upstream bandwidth would you say is the minimum for doing a good sounding conversation using Asterisk?

Back to usability. Like Dann mentioned on the show he is used to buying his software in a store, and just loading it on. That is why he went and ordered Linux CD's for $10 (he also couldn't figure out how to burn an ISO file). However, when I explained burning ISO's he realized his mistake. He also had no idea about "apt-get" or synaptic. When I showed him synaptic and it clicked that it gave him access to all kinds of different software that would just be downloaded, installed, and menu items created, he fell in love.

So are people used to doing things one way, and do we need to meet them where they are at. Well, I guess it was good that some place ripped him off by selling him $10 Ubuntu and DSL CDs because he did try Linux without me because of these "stores". At the same time, with a little show and tell, his software install questions disappeared, and he immediately fell in love with a new way to use his computer and install software. I guess, I'm a big believer in LUGs because this is what a LUG can do. It can with a little show and tell session cast off usability issues that the general user might have. Now if we can just keep the general user from getting scared off at the first LUG meeting he or she attends because of the "geek" speak.

Excellent point. If you know somebody who wants to try Linux, then I think it's actually a great option of just being able to say "Go here and buy X, and put the disc in and follow the instructions", because that's really the way people are used to doing things.

By the way for his laptop where WiFi worked, tell him to open Synaptic and install "network-manager" and "network-manager-gnome" and then log out and back into his account. Then he will have a network switcher that will make his life easier, if he roams around.

Anyway, I just wanted to add a positive story for Linux usability. I would not consider my friend super tech savvy. He isn't afraid to take apart computers, but that is because he has taken apart electronics his whole life. He can reinstall Windows, so installing Linux was not too hard for him. He is no system admin, nor a geek, and he is not the type that goes out of his way to learn new ways of doing the same thing he has always done. I would consider him a general Window's user who knows how to install new software on Windows, reinstall Windows, and knows how to hook up the parts of a computer. He really is not advanced in diagnosing hardware and software issues.

This is the kind of people (In your friend's case, a little beyond) that I see as the ones capable of installing Linux. People who can install Windows can absolutely install Linux, be it Ubuntu, openSUSE, Fedora or Mandriva.

Good point chuck. I got my daughter to try Linux via Fedora Core 3. She is 12 now. She really lost interest and finally stopped using it. About 8-9 months ago she saw me install Kubuntu and she liked the look of it.

Having looked at quite a bunch of my female friends' desktops on their laptops (What?), it seems that girls like things that do look a little shiny. They always seem to have something flashy going on on their desktops, so for girls, always make sure you show them a Linux desktop that actually looks cool, Beryl and Compiz might be like pepperoni on a pizza for this. Some nice colors etc. etc. (Kubuntu got pretty good at this with Edgy) that makes the desktop pleasing to look at (Bright light is good for your mood after all) does make Linux look more appealing, as crazy it may sound to some of us (Not me) who use ratpoison (OK; I'm not gonna make any jokes about that name!) with tons of terminals open!

I still have not gone over the command line with her because I don't want to get her too confused.

Dude, when you get a girl hooked on something you just shut up and nothing happens, if you say the wrong thing, boy can you get yourself into trouble mighty fast!! I speak from experience having to help my sister with a bunch of things. However I did get her hooked on Audacity on Windows, and then it's just like where I shut up so she just keeps using it.

She uses the GUI to install software with me present. I would agree that Kubuntu/Ubuntu is a great starting point.

It's getting a lot better (Kubuntu), but the UI of that Adept package manager, still kind of suck balls, in my opinion, even compared to the UI of Synpatic, or even freaking YaST!

[snarkout]

As a data point, my wife has been using kubuntu on a thinkpad for a few months now, and recently chose to keep that thinkpad with linux instead of a 17" g4 powerbook with OS X on it. Not because I'm a linux freak, but because she prefers it, I guess.

My son who is 3 uses linux nearly exclusively except for cartoon network/toonami stuff - it requires shockwave which simply doesn't exist for linux for some reason. For that he uses my ancient quicksilver with OS X. Other than that, he loves linux games - supertux, supertuxkart, maniadrive, blobwars, nexuiz, torcs, slune, and ri-li are his faves. I can't believe how good he is with a computer already - it makes a father proud...

[snarkout]

She uses the GUI to install software with me present. I would agree that Kubuntu/Ubuntu is a great starting point.

It's getting a lot better (Kubuntu), but the UI of that Adept package manager, still kind of suck balls, in my opinion, even compared to the UI of Synpatic, or even freaking YaST!

Yeah - adept really does need some work. I've shown my wife how to use apt instead because she found adept way too confusing. I have to say that I can't blame her - I can't even figure out HTF it's supposed to work.

[Tsuroerusu]

As a data point, my wife has been using kubuntu on a thinkpad for a few months now, and recently chose to keep that thinkpad with linux instead of a 17" g4 powerbook with OS X on it. Not because I'm a linux freak, but because she prefers it, I guess.

Just to put my free software hat on for a minute. Why take away the freedom? You know some freedoms are great to have even if you're not gonna use them, a few years ago I didn't write stuff and published it, so back then I could've cared less about my freedom to do so, however today I do through my blog (Which I will post about later today) etc.

* Troels takes his free software hat off again.

Guess what, a ThinkPad also in theory has better battery life if it uses a Pentium M CPU. Just curious, what does your wife's desktop look like? Flashy colors? Beryl ( ) ?

My son who is 3 uses linux nearly exclusively except for cartoon network/toonami stuff - it requires shockwave which simply doesn't exist for linux for some reason. For that he uses my ancient quicksilver with OS X. Other than that, he loves linux games - supertux, supertuxkart, maniadrive, blobwars, nexuiz, torcs, slune, and ri-li are his faves. I can't believe how good he is with a computer already - it makes a father proud...

Dude that's awesome, and don't forget TuxRacer and Frozen-Bubbles!!
One thing I hate today is those stupid-ass "kid games" that you can find in the gutter at some random super store, those games reminds of brainless shit like Teletubbies. I'm all about making something kid friendly, but also putting some freaking intelligence into it, because kids are NOT stupid, in fact, I've met kids who surpass their parents in understanding of what's fun and cool to do, I've met like 4 or 5 year old kids who know exactly how to be nice to like a cat or dog, all their parents do is like kick the animal.
I'm not a dad yet (Hopefully I will be, someday, 10 or 15 years maybe!), but you can be damn sure I'll have my NES lumbering around by then, because that was some good shit!

Anyway, if your son ever gets interested in more of what "gamers" play, be sure to get him a console (Even a freaking SNES or something old-ass like that, because those games are like pick up and play because of the technical limitations at that time) to keep him off the Windows.

Rant over! Just my two cents.

She uses the GUI to install software with me present. I would agree that Kubuntu/Ubuntu is a great starting point.

It's getting a lot better (Kubuntu), but the UI of that Adept package manager, still kind of suck balls, in my opinion, even compared to the UI of Synpatic, or even freaking YaST!

Yeah - adept really does need some work. I've shown my wife how to use apt instead because she found adept way too confusing. I have to say that I can't blame her - I can't even figure out HTF it's supposed to work.

I consider Adept a UI disaster, just look at the updater part of it, it looks really clunky and ugly! Whereas main Ubuntu looks a lot more polished and professional, oh well, I guess that's what you have to expect from a project where KDE gets treated as a second-class citizen. OK, I'm sure somebody is gonna refer me to a Mark Shuttleworth statement of KDE being equal with GNOME yada yada yada, I just don't buy that, because Kubuntu always seems to be of substantial or just plain out lower quality than Ubuntu itself. The crappy System Settings dialog, Adept and over all quality. I will admit that Edgy improved a lot on that last one, but the two others are still there. Also there's the whole issue of the partitioning part of the installation bombing out when trying to create more than two or three partitions, let alone be, what I thin is, sh!tty Konqueror hacks and customizations

OK, second rant over! Sorry about that.

[snarkout]

Guess what, a ThinkPad also in theory has better battery life if it uses a Pentium M CPU. Just curious, what does your wife's desktop look like? Flashy colors? Beryl ( ) ?

No, just standard kde. It's a t42 with a lowend radeon card in it - I can't remember which right now - but it's not great. Her 1024x768 screen lasts for something like 5 hours on a single 9 cell battery - my 1500x1050 t43 lasts about 3 with the same battery. The higher rez really makes the screen look a shitload nicer, but it also really eats the battery.

Anyway, if your son ever gets interested in more of what "gamers" play, be sure to get him a console (Even a freaking SNES or something old-ass like that, because those games are like pick up and play because of the technical limitations at that time) to keep him off the Windows.

He uses my PS2 for that stuff. His favorites are Spyro (the original - I picked it up for $5 new at target a few years ago) and "Cars" right now. I used to let him play GTA3 since all he wanted to do was drive the cars around, but my wife caught him kicking ass with a baseball bat, and that was the end of that...

...I just don't buy that, because Kubuntu always seems to be of substantial or just plain out lower quality than Ubuntu itself. The crappy System Settings dialog, Adept and over all quality. I will admit that Edgy improved a lot on that last one, but the two others are still there. Also there's the whole issue of the partitioning part of the installation bombing out when trying to create more than two or three partitions, let alone be, what I thin is, sh!tty Konqueror hacks and customizations

Yeah, I'm pretty disappointed with some of the things they've done with edgy. It works well, but removing the "ibm_thinkpad" module from kcontrol, and forcing users to use kmilo with no way of easily customizing buttons really just sucks. Also, they've completely broken media:/ for some reason, and the "root folder" option in konq now only shows home and media. I'm looking for a new lappy distro at this point - the main reason I use kubuntu is the large amount of work they've done with suspend to get it to work nearly flawlessly. Last time I installed arch, everything worked very well, but suspend2 would randomly bomb out which was kind of a bummer. PCLinuxOS (worst. name. evar.) looks nice, so do suse and mandriva. I suppose I should really give them a look-see again - I don't mind paying for a distro, especially for my wife.