It may not affect you as a Canadian but it may affect you as a Linux user. The more that third party hardware and software developers support Linux in general benefits all of us directly and indirectly.Judland wrote:Again, this affects me as a Canadian in what way?
Would you pay for legal codecs support via Linspire's CNR?
Moderators: snarkout, Patrick, dann
And what sort of message are we sending by paying for, and therefore supporting, this kind of "solution"?Chess wrote:It may not affect you as a Canadian but it may affect you as a Linux user. The more that third party hardware and software developers support Linux in general benefits all of us directly and indirectly.
Paying for something that we should already have the rights to do is not something we, as supporters for F/OSS, should be doing. I think this is a message that RMS has been trying to get across to the American people for some time. Not many are listening.
I cannot and do not want to change US patent laws... but I can decide on the project and people I wish to support. This project isn't one of them.
Well, if that day does come, then I'll do my best to change the laws in my country. But, I'm afraid that the US citizens will have to fend for themselves.Tsuroerusu wrote:I'm sure Canadian Recording Industry Association is pretty much the same, and I'm sure theyøre pushing laws that will outlaw DeCSS and stuff like that, it's just a matter of time, hell even France is adopting "an implementation" of the EUCD.
By the way, ask me how long it's been since I've purchased a CD from a Canadian record store. It's been years and it's been a deliberate decision. However, thankfully file sharing of music between individuals is not illegal in Canada... at least the last time I heard. There must be a pretty good reason for this.
Last edited by Judland on Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tsuroerusu
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I fully see your point here, and I agree with you, but it'll be very very hard to get Linux into the hands of mainstream users without this sort of thing.Judland wrote:And what sort of message are we sending by paying for, and therefore supporting, this kind of "solution"?
Paying for something that we should already have the rights to do is not something we, as supporters for F/OSS, should be doing. I think this is a message that RMS has been trying to get across to the American people for some time. Not many are listening.
Here's an example: Joe average user can buy a PC with Windows preinstalled where he can play all his video files, music files, DVDs and stuff right out of the box (Because WinDVD or some shit like that is included from HP or whoever), or he can buy a PC with Ubuntu preinstalled that will play roughly, only OGG Vorbis and OGG Theora as the celebrity formats.
"Hatred does not cease by hatred, but only by love. This is the eternal rule."
- Siddhattha Gotama (Buddha), founder of Buddhism.
You're just giving up your freedom for convenience. That's a pretty heafty price, and corporations spend a lot of money convincing you that it's worth it. By supporting them, you're allowing it to happen.Tsuroerusu wrote:I fully see your point here, and I agree with you, but it'll be very very hard to get Linux into the hands of mainstream users without this sort of thing.
Here's an example: Joe average user can buy a PC with Windows preinstalled where he can play all his video files, music files, DVDs and stuff right out of the box (Because WinDVD or some shat like that is included from HP or whoever), or he can buy a PC with Ubuntu preinstalled that will play roughly, only OGG Vorbis and OGG Theora as the celebrity formats.
Things aren't going to change if you don't start making some personal decisions.... easy or otherwise. It's just that simple.
More from Kevin Carmony regarding Freespire:
http://www.linspire.com/linspire_letter ... .php?id=27
I totally disagree with this comment:
"Linspire uses legally licensed, proprietary codecs, drivers and software from third-party companies. Without utilizing this software, Linux is right back where I started five years ago: unusable."
Linux is pretty strong without the proprietary codecs and software in my opinion. The proprietary stuff does make it a better experience for someone new to linux though.
http://www.linspire.com/linspire_letter ... .php?id=27
I totally disagree with this comment:
"Linspire uses legally licensed, proprietary codecs, drivers and software from third-party companies. Without utilizing this software, Linux is right back where I started five years ago: unusable."
Linux is pretty strong without the proprietary codecs and software in my opinion. The proprietary stuff does make it a better experience for someone new to linux though.
Ego contemno licentia
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Tsuroerusu
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Again, as I clearly stated, I fully see what you're saying, and I agree with you, but how can we (By "we", I'm referring to the entire community) ever convince a Windows user to switch to GNU/Linux if he can't play all the media that he already have, even if he buys a computer with GNU/Linux preinstalled? Let alone be the freaking Mac users.Judland wrote:You're just giving up your freedom for convenience. That's a pretty heafty price, and corporations spend a lot of money convincing you that it's worth it. By supporting them, you're allowing it to happen.
Things aren't going to change if you don't start making some personal decisions.... easy or otherwise. It's just that simple.
Completely agree, that was a bullshit comment! I just tried installing the completely open source version of SUSE 10.0 under VMware, and it was more than usable, plenty of usable fonts, plenty of drivers... Very very usable if you ask me, you have a fantastic web browser (Firefox), a wonderful email/calendar/news-reader/groupware suite (Kontact), a robust office suite (OpenOffice) and hundreds and hundreds of other programs.Patrick wrote:More from Kevin Carmony regarding Freespire:
http://www.linspire.com/linspire_letter ... .php?id=27
I totally disagree with this comment:
"Linspire uses legally licensed, proprietary codecs, drivers and software from third-party companies. Without utilizing this software, Linux is right back where I started five years ago: unusable."
Linux is pretty strong without the proprietary codecs and software in my opinion. The proprietary stuff does make it a better experience for someone new to linux though.
Last edited by Tsuroerusu on Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Hatred does not cease by hatred, but only by love. This is the eternal rule."
- Siddhattha Gotama (Buddha), founder of Buddhism.
This page has lots of information on Freespire:
http://www.freespire.org/support/faqs#mementum
And this post at Groklaw comes down pretty hard on Linspire:
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?stor ... 4164142296
http://www.freespire.org/support/faqs#mementum
And this post at Groklaw comes down pretty hard on Linspire:
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?stor ... 4164142296
Last edited by Patrick on Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ego contemno licentia
It ain't easy... I know. I don't have guaraneed solutions. All I can say is lead by example. That's probably your best way to convince people. It won't convince everyone and it takes time... but at least it's making a stand.
Two years ago there were only two of us, in an office of over 80 people using Linux. Now, we actually have a LUG (had our first meeting in March) that went from six in attendance to eleven at the second meeting. Six of these people I have helped install Linux on their home PCs over the last six months or so.
It's been a slow process, but I keep drumming the message of Linux and open source at ever opportunity.
Here's another example:
The company I work for is privately owned, but owned by shareholders within the company itself... shareholders that must be "inivited" to buy into the company.
Two weeks ago, one of those shareholders told me that the new CEO sent a memo out to the "principals", outlining his new objectives and goals for the next few years. One of the goals was to look into open source alternatives and opportunities to impliment such alternatives where ever possible.
Strangely enough, the new CEO was in our office a week before this meme was sent out. I'm happy to say that I approached him myself and had about a 30 minute discussion about open source/Linux solutions that we could be beneifiting from. I like to think I had some influence on him during that time.
It's a slow process, but people are now starting to think about Linux and what they might be missing out on by not using it. That's a good thing, from my point of view.
P.S.
My apologies for getting up on my soap box again. I'll get down now so others can make more useful contributions to the discussion.
Two years ago there were only two of us, in an office of over 80 people using Linux. Now, we actually have a LUG (had our first meeting in March) that went from six in attendance to eleven at the second meeting. Six of these people I have helped install Linux on their home PCs over the last six months or so.
It's been a slow process, but I keep drumming the message of Linux and open source at ever opportunity.
Here's another example:
The company I work for is privately owned, but owned by shareholders within the company itself... shareholders that must be "inivited" to buy into the company.
Two weeks ago, one of those shareholders told me that the new CEO sent a memo out to the "principals", outlining his new objectives and goals for the next few years. One of the goals was to look into open source alternatives and opportunities to impliment such alternatives where ever possible.
Strangely enough, the new CEO was in our office a week before this meme was sent out. I'm happy to say that I approached him myself and had about a 30 minute discussion about open source/Linux solutions that we could be beneifiting from. I like to think I had some influence on him during that time.
It's a slow process, but people are now starting to think about Linux and what they might be missing out on by not using it. That's a good thing, from my point of view.
P.S.
My apologies for getting up on my soap box again. I'll get down now so others can make more useful contributions to the discussion.
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Tsuroerusu
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As Marcel Gagné said during his keynote at DSL: "Stop apologizing for Linux"Patrick wrote:Don't apologize! This is why we're here. Vent away!Judland wrote: My apologies for getting up on my soap box again. I'll get down now so others can make more useful contributions to the discussion.
"Hatred does not cease by hatred, but only by love. This is the eternal rule."
- Siddhattha Gotama (Buddha), founder of Buddhism.
I understand what Judland is saying and this is a tough issue. In the end, for me at least, I believe we can make quicker change from the inside out. What I mean is, if we can get more people using Linux, and explain to them the advantages of free alternatives, then market forces might dictate change in those areas.
I'll use a simple, personal example. I used to use an iPod and bought songs through the iTunes Music Store. I ripped my entire music collection to mp3 format. This was still while I was using Linux as well.
As I learned more about the issues surrounding codecs and the like, I realized the error of my ways. I slowly reripped my entire music collection to ogg. I got rid of my iPod and bought an iAudio. I now listen to ogg format podcasts whenever I can. But this change in me was because I was already using Linux and had the opportunity to first use mp3's before switching to ogg. For me, the total Linux conversion came first, then the understanding of the F/OSS issues came second. For others, that's not the case and I get that.
But, for many people, not having legal (in the US) audio/video codec support out of the box will turn them off from using Linux. My parents and my siblings fall into this category. For some of those folks, explaining the advantages of free codecs won't mean much to them because they may not understand Linux and the F/OSS principles. I was at my sister's wedding this weekend and got into discussions with people about these issues and they just didn't get it. However, if these folks were able to use Linux and use those proprietary codecs and become comfortable with Linux, then maybe they would start to understand the F/OSS principles, and after that then perhaps, like me, they would actually start supporting open codecs. And once we have more Linux users demanding third parties support those open codecs, the more likely those third parties will start to see the light. Strength in numbers and all that.
I know that many disagree with this opinion. I know that some would argue that since we (meaning us TLLTS listeners who are more "advanced" Linux users) grasp the F/OSS issues, we need to take a stand. I just think it's a balancing act between taking a stand on those issues and recognizing that some people won't get it right away.
That's why I would support what Linspire is offering. If I could tell my siblings that they could legally listen to their mp3 collection and watch their DVD's, then they would instantly be much more amenable to switching to Linux. And then I could really engage them in a debate about the open codecs.
Anyway, that's my opinion, which ain't worth much.
Go ahead: flame away.
I'll use a simple, personal example. I used to use an iPod and bought songs through the iTunes Music Store. I ripped my entire music collection to mp3 format. This was still while I was using Linux as well.
As I learned more about the issues surrounding codecs and the like, I realized the error of my ways. I slowly reripped my entire music collection to ogg. I got rid of my iPod and bought an iAudio. I now listen to ogg format podcasts whenever I can. But this change in me was because I was already using Linux and had the opportunity to first use mp3's before switching to ogg. For me, the total Linux conversion came first, then the understanding of the F/OSS issues came second. For others, that's not the case and I get that.
But, for many people, not having legal (in the US) audio/video codec support out of the box will turn them off from using Linux. My parents and my siblings fall into this category. For some of those folks, explaining the advantages of free codecs won't mean much to them because they may not understand Linux and the F/OSS principles. I was at my sister's wedding this weekend and got into discussions with people about these issues and they just didn't get it. However, if these folks were able to use Linux and use those proprietary codecs and become comfortable with Linux, then maybe they would start to understand the F/OSS principles, and after that then perhaps, like me, they would actually start supporting open codecs. And once we have more Linux users demanding third parties support those open codecs, the more likely those third parties will start to see the light. Strength in numbers and all that.
I know that many disagree with this opinion. I know that some would argue that since we (meaning us TLLTS listeners who are more "advanced" Linux users) grasp the F/OSS issues, we need to take a stand. I just think it's a balancing act between taking a stand on those issues and recognizing that some people won't get it right away.
That's why I would support what Linspire is offering. If I could tell my siblings that they could legally listen to their mp3 collection and watch their DVD's, then they would instantly be much more amenable to switching to Linux. And then I could really engage them in a debate about the open codecs.
Anyway, that's my opinion, which ain't worth much.
Go ahead: flame away.Chess Griffin
I fall into this camp as well. If all of a sudden I couldn't play mp3s and dvds, etc, I'd use another OS for that type of thing, and would have no reason at all to use linux as a desktop. It bugs the hell out of me that I have to break the law to play DVDs/mp3s that I've paid for, but the people who have made the technology available want money from me to use the technology. I'm willing to pay them for the codecs to be legal.But, for many people, not having legal (in the US) audio/video codec support out of the box will turn them off from using Linux.
Shared pain is lessened, shared joy is increased; thus do we refute entropy.
--Spider Robinson
--Spider Robinson
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Tsuroerusu
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Just to point something out here. The MAD library, which is a US-patent-violating MP3 decoder for Linux/UNIX, which is released under the GPL, is not illegal here in Denmark or in Europe in general. I'm not gonna buy a proprietary MP3 codec that costs money, as long I can just use MAD for zero dollars, and at the same time, stay all Free Software on my machine.
So the point is, as long as I don't have to pay for shit to stay legal, I'll use whatever is available, maybe with the exception of Windows Media, because right now, MPlayer and Xine uses the Windows binary DLLs, if I could have native Linux codecs/libraries, I would prefer that, but I doubt I'd pay for it even then unless the native Linux codecs were significantly better.
So the point is, as long as I don't have to pay for shit to stay legal, I'll use whatever is available, maybe with the exception of Windows Media, because right now, MPlayer and Xine uses the Windows binary DLLs, if I could have native Linux codecs/libraries, I would prefer that, but I doubt I'd pay for it even then unless the native Linux codecs were significantly better.
"Hatred does not cease by hatred, but only by love. This is the eternal rule."
- Siddhattha Gotama (Buddha), founder of Buddhism.
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Anonymous
I completely agree with your post. I don't think some little codec should be a stopping point for converting over. There are many different levels of computer users. Some really just view their computer as an electronic device, and they don't bear any beliefs regarding it beyond that. Everybody uses a car analogy to describe this, so here goes: Some people want a car to get them from point a to point b without breaking down. These kinds of people do not generally get under the hood when it breaks down, they immediately whip out a cell phone and call Triple A. We are the ones that like to dig around under the hood and say "Oh, that's what's causing the problem!", or "That's what I need to add to squeeze a little more performance out of it." Not everyone enjoys it. Should we ban the ones that can't fix their own cars from driving? Absolutely not, because we are the ones that they come to when they need help.Chess wrote:I understand what Judland is saying and this is a tough issue. In the end, for me at least, I believe we can make quicker change from the inside out. What I mean is, if we can get more people using Linux, and explain to them the advantages of free alternatives, then market forces might dictate change in those areas.
I'll use a simple, personal example. I used to use an iPod and bought songs through the iTunes Music Store. I ripped my entire music collection to mp3 format. This was still while I was using Linux as well.
As I learned more about the issues surrounding codecs and the like, I realized the error of my ways. I slowly reripped my entire music collection to ogg. I got rid of my iPod and bought an iAudio. I now listen to ogg format podcasts whenever I can. But this change in me was because I was already using Linux and had the opportunity to first use mp3's before switching to ogg. For me, the total Linux conversion came first, then the understanding of the F/OSS issues came second. For others, that's not the case and I get that.
But, for many people, not having legal (in the US) audio/video codec support out of the box will turn them off from using Linux. My parents and my siblings fall into this category. For some of those folks, explaining the advantages of free codecs won't mean much to them because they may not understand Linux and the F/OSS principles. I was at my sister's wedding this weekend and got into discussions with people about these issues and they just didn't get it. However, if these folks were able to use Linux and use those proprietary codecs and become comfortable with Linux, then maybe they would start to understand the F/OSS principles, and after that then perhaps, like me, they would actually start supporting open codecs. And once we have more Linux users demanding third parties support those open codecs, the more likely those third parties will start to see the light. Strength in numbers and all that.
I know that many disagree with this opinion. I know that some would argue that since we (meaning us TLLTS listeners who are more "advanced" Linux users) grasp the F/OSS issues, we need to take a stand. I just think it's a balancing act between taking a stand on those issues and recognizing that some people won't get it right away.
That's why I would support what Linspire is offering. If I could tell my siblings that they could legally listen to their mp3 collection and watch their DVD's, then they would instantly be much more amenable to switching to Linux. And then I could really engage them in a debate about the open codecs.
Anyway, that's my opinion, which ain't worth much.
Lets look at this as an opportunity to welcome in some new users, something all the distributions need. The average computer user is going to take it personally if we tell them mp3s and dvds are evil. Linux, in every form and every distro is a step in the right direction. It is senseless to shove people that want to take smaller steps and move gradually.