Taking Linux advocacy to the "mainstream" tech press

[rowinggolfer]

First of all I have to come right out and tell all that do not know that I am a Christian

Why do you have to come right out and tell us that?
What assumptions about you are we supposed to make given that you are a Christian?

[snarkout]

Well, considering it was their second post, more than likely all of us knew it anyhow.

I do admit I never understand posts like these. It's like: Hi my name is snarkout, and I am a devout vegetarian. The fact that there are no vegetarian cisco books out there really bothers me, especially in light of the fact that I read so many of them. Hopefully, some day I'll be able to combine bean and cheese burritos with BGP route reflection and perhaps later tofu and tempeh stir fry with vrf route leaking and mpls. I mean, quite simply, what does one aspect of my life have to do with the other? I guess some people feel the need to wear their hearts on their sleeves, and hell, if it makes them better and happier people, or makes them better more caring parents and partners, more power to them, but please don't be offended if I can't make sense of it at all.

[zeke123]

>Linux is already a dominant force in the open source world.
>Any show I do on Linux or Linux-desktop-related things would
>be “preaching to the choir”, and has already been covered to death, in my opinion.
>After all, look at the number of Linux-specific podcasts!

How does one say that this is the most idiotic thing I've heard without sounding insulting?
Isnt every Mac podcast preaching to the choir?
Yet even though Mac is OVERSATURATED and seeps into every conversation, I have never heard anyone suggest that its been covered to death and coverage should be cut back.
Wait, I remember you doing live coverage of people waiting in line for the iphone? Must have been because there was a dearth of coverage, right?

How about we get to only about 10% of Mac coverage in the mainstream tech media and
THEN maybe start worrying about oversaturating the podcast world with Linux coverage?

The excuse is reminiscent of the obese woman who joins a gym but doesnt want to overdo it and get 'too muscular'. In both cases, dont worry, we are faaaaaaar from there yet.

>My goal with FLOSS “Weekly” bookings is to bring to the forefront
>those things that are worthy, but don’t have quite as much overdone press on them.

Again, how many FLOSS topics are done to death?
Maaaaybe Firefox?
So you dont want to preach to the choir and then turn about and deal with uber-niche topics that isnt for the new FLOSS user, its not for the average FLOSS choir but for a certain small segment of the community?
Yeah, that makes perfect sense.
There is no mainstream FLOSS show ANYWHERE that covers this topic so instead of doing the first one, lets really narrow it down?
That's like having no foundation on your house yet and start working on the roof.

Btw, name me a mainstream online content company like Rev3, Cnet, Ziff, Twit, that has a Linux or FLOSS show?
Name me one that has even just a regular Linux segment. Linux and FLOSS are grossly underrepresented in mainstream tech media. Please dont insult our intelligence by claiming that Linux or FLOSS isnt shunned by the mainstream media and that it is overplayed on any level.

I think that Leo can do what he wants with a vanity project but he should consider
being the trailblazer he claims to be and create a THIS WEEK IN LINUX show.

We can also stop pretending we care about FLOSS Weekly. Most of us who listen TLLTS
grok the GPL, some dig the FSF which you have made clear you despise, so we can be guaranteed we will never hear about that.
And you dont know Linux, so really, it ends up being a vanity show about some things you like which happen to be FLOSS. (I nevr have time to try Bender so its not like the show has no use). I know more about what ISNT ever going to be on your show than what is.
So how about we stop kidding ourselves and hope that by miracle one of our interests will be covered? Clearly, its not gonna happen.

Therefore why doenst Leo just 'fork the show' and have a show which will keep people abreast of things in the Linux world and a FLOSS one? You could even get rid of the F and L if you want.
You alternate each week with the Linux show and get to cover your favorite topics.
I think it would be nice to free yourself of expectations from a group of people who expect you to be someone you are not.
The tone you take to describe your distate of GPL, RMS and others leave me to believe that while you may try to impune on someones motives earlier, youve made your positions pretty clear along with a hint of disdain. And I have no intention in starting the age old pissing contest between the various factions that you seem to perpetuate.
Thanks for clarifying for us all where you stand. It will save us all a lot of time.

THe problem is that with all the anti-Linux mouthbreathers that appear on Twit, people expect you as a FLOSS supporter to stand up and offer a very minimal counterbalance which you will admit it yourself I am sure, is not happening.
Asking you to be Chris DeBona isnt fair either.

There have been plenty of topics that you could have covered in the past few months that were totally overlooked by the mainstreams tech news and which go much further than our personal tastes in Linux but really would you care?

It doesnt have to be as crass as doing product placement for the 20 manufacturers that will be carrying Linux by the end of the year but the big problem with getting any traction on the desktop has been about getting the OEM's on board. Since Dell did their Ideastorm website a little over a year ago, 20 manufacturers have come one board.
I think a whole segment on the importance of OEMs to get market share would have been very illumintating and timely considering the netbook onslaught.
A little more than a year ago, we were thrilled that Dell even had the Ideastorm site. The very idea of so many manufacturers on board with Linux is still new to many people.

And while you might not be as willing to shil for Linux products like you would for Mac's newest cure for cancer launch, how does something like Asus adding embedded Linux to ALL their motherboards not even get a sniff?
Millions of motherboards each month as well as some Asus laptop (Dell is supposedly also getting into this) lines will have that Splashtop instant on option. Any geek will tell you that slow boot up times have been a bane on our existence yet this story was totally bypassed by the so called tech shows. No chance of beating this story to death too.

You could have done a segment on the big technology push in Brazil where they will build 50,000 computer labs by the end of next year (30,000 by the end of 2008) which will serve 50 MILLION students using localized versions of Linux/KDE.
Heck, you could have plugged this story into a regular Twit appearance because of the sheer number. How do you NOT cover this story?

You could have covered something more for the core geeks, licenses issues which are always evolving. Maybe how the Microsoft open source licenses will impact us or if it will be used simply as FUD fodder?

But hey, its your show, you get to choose how you run it. Fine.

But I get to ask Leo and strongly suggest that people nicely write in and explain the need for the first Linux podcast on a major tech network and suggesting that a TWIT Linux show be added to the lineup.
It is unfair to the Linux community to expect any kind of coverage in the FLOSS show.


Btw, your mom can get paid Ubuntu phone support from Best Buy now. Of course, that's not your thing to actually know this. But like they say in Taiwan: "Linux is for housewives and XP is for geeks!"


>First step - get the guys at LinuxCranks to stop making podcasts until they can grow >up. >Get these guys off the air.

I hope this is said tongue in cheek because if it isnt, then even if you dont like profanity (or Lugradio for taht matter!), Id have to ask who the EFF you are to decide who can say what?
And if you're honest, I'm sure you were salivating at the Fake Steve Jobs blog when it was anonymous. Jobs on the other hand probably had a reaction like yours. No idea where Im going with that really...trying to find a way to say byebye!!

Zeke,
Saint-Félicien, QC

[diggsIt]

Damn, what a great thread. I gotta get this on Festival.

[eddie]

I am a red blooded carnivore, but I partake of vegetables as needed. My big push now is to get off of proprietary pre-processed foods. We try to make everything from scratch so we generally know what is in it. Open source recipes are the way to go. In most cases it is easier and faster. (i.e. kneadless bread). Pancakes are also a cinch to make from scratch. A little dough bashing never hurt anyone, I do not even use Bertoli. Who needs something from a shrink-wrapped box.

[jelkimantis]

First of all, I cringed a little bit at the playing of clips of Linux bashing from the various Twit broadcasts. While many of those comments pissed me off, what immediately sprung to mind is that we could likely string together 8 full hours of Windows and Mac-bashing comments from the TLLTS shows over the years if we wanted to. It just sounds hypocritical to complain about this.

With respect to playing TWIT bashing Linux, it's not hypocritical at all that TLLTS bashes windows. It's like this: If TLLTS stated, "We are a tech show, devoted to giving you the best in technology, period. No bias, or any slandering of viewpoints that are valid." Then TLLTS would be wrong in MS bashing. But, as you say later, (quoted below for other purposes), TLLTS is a linux show. They should and will bash windows. TWIT on the other hand, whether you agree with it or not, presents itself as a general tech segment. Theoretically devoid of bias, presenting facts. I know, I know, it is NOT devoid of bias, but I assure you that there are people who believe that they are.

The guys on TLLTS feel passionate about Linux and open source - as do I. The guys on MacBreak feel passionate about the Mac. IMO that's what's great about podcasts, you can have a show about a niche interest, done by people passionate about the subject. That's what makes them interesting to me.

interestingly enough, TLLTS does not focus purely on Linux stuff, but on stuff that is cool and important in the community. Occasionally (with VISTA) only to tell us why Linux is so much better, but still, we get a rounded view. MacBreak will be telling us all about the Open Mok-- wait... no they won't. They'll be talking about the iphone as if It's the only phone on the market. Sorry, that's not passion, that's marketing.

So what to do? Make a better product maybe. Leo doesn't have a patent on the mainstream audience capture mechanism... Why isn't there a competitor to Floss Weekly? If the interest is there (and maybe it's not) then there could be a show that is very much like Floss Weekly, but maybe more interesting and aimed more toward the Desktop Linux community for instance.

Leo has one thing that we don't. A television history. He was on screen savers, and a lot of college aged person will remember that and use that as a validation of his "coolness" status. People don't pick based on content, people pick shows based on feelings...

jsl

[rfquerin]

With respect to playing TWIT bashing Linux, it's not hypocritical at all that TLLTS bashes windows. It's like this: If TLLTS stated, "We are a tech show, devoted to giving you the best in technology, period. No bias, or any slandering of viewpoints that are valid." Then TLLTS would be wrong in MS bashing. But, as you say later, (quoted below for other purposes), TLLTS is a linux show. They should and will bash windows. TWIT on the other hand, whether you agree with it or not, presents itself as a general tech segment. Theoretically devoid of bias, presenting facts. I know, I know, it is NOT devoid of bias, but I assure you that there are people who believe that they are.

For the record, a lot of the clips that Pat or Dann cued up were from MacBreak Weekly I believe. A show biased, of course, for the Mac.

interestingly enough, TLLTS does not focus purely on Linux stuff, but on stuff that is cool and important in the community. Occasionally (with VISTA) only to tell us why Linux is so much better, but still, we get a rounded view. MacBreak will be telling us all about the Open Mok-- wait... no they won't. They'll be talking about the iphone as if It's the only phone on the market. Sorry, that's not passion, that's marketing.

I don't think it's marketing per se. Leo has a group of several self-confessed Mac-heads on a show about Apple. I don't think they scheme to 'market' on Apple's behalf - they do *sometimes* present the negative along with the positive. Perhaps not as much as I'd like, but they do it. I genuinely believe those guys are passionate about Apple just like the TLLTS guys are passionate about Linux and FOSS. I don't think they're much different in that respect. Apart from the fact that they're wrong, and we're right.

Leo has one thing that we don't. A television history. He was on screen savers, and a lot of college aged person will remember that and use that as a validation of his "coolness" status. People don't pick based on content, people pick shows based on feelings...

I never watched any of his stuff. In fact I never knew who he was until I started listening to his podcast stuff (the KFI show podcasts etc.). For sure his background puts him in the catbird seat in a lot of respects, but I think there's still lots of room for competition and creativity from the FOSS side of things.

And there's always the realistic possibility that Leo is simply not a Linux guy and doesn't really care that much. He can do what he wants, and if he's doing stuff he's passionate about and that doesn't include linux, then so be it. It's his show, and I'm not paying him for it. I just think it's not unrealistic that someone else can come up and fill in the gaps. He doesn't have to be the only game in town.

[RandalSchwartz]

A few constructive suggestions:

Take an existing Linux podcast, or create a new one, and pitch it to Leo (leo@twit.tv). Leo doesn't have a lot of room left in his recording schedule, but the first step is to have an experienced producer that can schedule guests and help produce the overall content. Leo can play his "everyman" role, asking the questions for the more naive parts of the audience. That's how it works with me on FLOSS Weekly, anyway: I press in technically, and he brings it back to introduction.

And/Or: write Chris Dibona and Maddog and remind them that FLOSS Weekly still isn't weekly, and Leo is very willing to have them both step (back) up to the plate to fill in the weeks that I can't tape. I would be thrilled if we could get FLOSS back up to weekly, and I bet you Maddog's biases would clearly be much more aligned to your stated goals so far.

And/Or: Bring me a primed contact for a project that you think should be covered on FLOSS. As in, get someone who already wants to talk, and can talk well, and can meet my schedule. The less work I have to do to put them on the show, the far more likely it'll be they get on. I'm not terribly picky, but if I have to put personal unpaid effort into it, it's gonna be a subject that I am personally interested in (and I don't find mainstream Desktop Linux all that interesting). I don't know why that's so hard for y'all to figure out. I'll be your lazy lackey, if you meet me halfway. Feel free to contact me at my public address: merlyn@stonehenge.com. I welcome all-comers. (Good: "here's Foo@example.com who has already said they know skype and want to talk about the Bar project, and are available on the following wednesdays: x, y, z". Bad: "I think Bletch would be an interesting project!". Work it out.)

You want 50,000 downloads to cover more of what you want... this is how. Get organized. Make it happen.

[rfquerin]

I'm not terribly picky, but if I have to put personal unpaid effort into it, it's gonna be a subject that I am personally interested in (and I don't find mainstream Desktop Linux all that interesting). I don't know why that's so hard for y'all to figure out.

I'm not too sure that was evident to anyone else (before you posted here) Randal. At least it wasn't to me.

Unfortunately, it sounds like we don't match up interests, so at least I know that Floss Weekly in it's current state is likely not going to interest me. I am interested in Desktop Linux and the people that make it happen. I'll stick to shows that cover those kinds of topics. Thanks for the clarification.

[rowinggolfer]

A few constructive suggestions:
And/Or: write Chris Dibona and Maddog and remind them that FLOSS Weekly still isn't weekly

You have a very good point here.
By chance I relistened to FLOSS episode 17 last night (whilst in the bath... but I digress). Perhaps worth stating that the Floss back-catalogue is a fantastic resource IMO.

Anyway, Floss ep 17 was from March 2007, (the Chris-de-Bona era), and the interviewee is John "MadDog" Hall. Towards the end of the show, Leo invites maddog to become a frequent co-host for the series, and all three of them are very optimistic and enthusiastic about doing this.

It never happened, however, Randal Schwartz, himself an interviewee on Floss episode 9, has picked up the baton and run with it, giving us a much more regular dose of the Floss medicine.
Granted this debate has made us realise that he is not the hardcore linux-advocate some of us would like him to be, but I for one am grateful to him that open-source gets more 'mainstream' air time than it would otherwise.

Anyway, back to the point.
Randall - if you're reading this post, please consider a reversal of episode 9, ie. You interview Chris-de-Bona.
Obviously talk to him about something you both are interested in.
However, a good topic might be about how code.google.com works (or doesn't!) to promote FLOSS.
Also, IIRC Chris used to work at sourceforge. Perhaps a current sourceforge guy could join in also?

Anyway, this would be a great way to get Chris contributing, and take some of the load off yourself.

regards,
A cranky anonymous coward.

[RandalSchwartz]

Randall - if you're reading this post, please consider a reversal of episode 9, ie. You interview Chris-de-Bona.

Since that's what episode 1 essentially was, I'm not interested in doing that. Leo interviewed Chris to start the series.

However, a good topic might be about how code.google.com works (or doesn't!) to promote FLOSS.

We talked a lot about the design and implementation of code.google.com during the Greg Stein interview. Wasn't that enough?

I appreciate suggestions, but I'm not likely to do anything that overlaps the back-catalog. There are too many other new ideas in my queue already.

[Gomer_X]

I'm not terribly picky, but if I have to put personal unpaid effort into it, it's gonna be a subject that I am personally interested in (and I don't find mainstream Desktop Linux all that interesting). I don't know why that's so hard for y'all to figure out.

I'm not too sure that was evident to anyone else (before you posted here) Randal. At least it wasn't to me.

I've posted about this before (in one of the other threads), so it's evident to me. Although it's not spelled out in detail every show, it's obvious that FLOSS weekly is NOT a Linux show.

If you don't like it, that's OK but it's a bit short sighted to condemn it for not being yet another Linux show. Talking about desktop Linux may make us happy, but it's NOT going to impact the mainstream person. FLOSS weekly brings open source software to people who are not Linux geeks. Doesn't this help us more in the long run than another Linux show?

What has helped us more, Firefox or boxed Linux distros in stores? Even if people aren't using Linux because of it, the fact that enormous numbers of people are using Firefox is a huge win for Linux. If people can see what can be accomplished with free software, they're more likely to accept Linux or FreeBSD or whatever.

Linux installfests, distro reviews and Microsoft bashing aren't putting Linux in the mainstream.

[rfquerin]

I've posted about this before (in one of the other threads), so it's evident to me. Although it's not spelled out in detail every show, it's obvious that FLOSS weekly is NOT a Linux show.

Actually what I meant was that I didn't know that Randal wasn't interested in Desktop Linux and therefore wouldn't be covering topics related to that on Floss weekly. Re-reading my comment, I was unclear.

If you don't like it, that's OK but it's a bit short sighted to condemn it for not being yet another Linux show. Talking about desktop Linux may make us happy, but it's NOT going to impact the mainstream person. FLOSS weekly brings open source software to people who are not Linux geeks. Doesn't this help us more in the long run than another Linux show?

I'm not condemning anybody. If I don't like it, I won't listen. And I'm not sure everyone is expecting to have FLOSS be a desktop linux show. I think it's a desire just to have some more desktop linux related content in there. Of course though as Randal says, it's not something we should be expecting.

What has helped us more, Firefox or boxed Linux distros in stores? Even if people aren't using Linux because of it, the fact that enormous numbers of people are using Firefox is a huge win for Linux. If people can see what can be accomplished with free software, they're more likely to accept Linux or FreeBSD or whatever.

I agree. But here's a real world example. Our office of 15 or so people switched to using Firefox (on XP) about 2 or 3 years ago. For web browsing, it's all we run. However no one, NO ONE, has a clue that it is free (as in speech) software. NO ONE has a clue what the hell free software is, nevermind the concept of software freedom. While it has succeeded at replacing IE, it has done nothing for FOSS here. Mind you this is one example, but I'm not sure FF does all that much for the FOSS community when you look at real world users (not computer geeks). Sad to say.

Linux installfests, distro reviews and Microsoft bashing aren't putting Linux in the mainstream.

I agree on the Microsoft bashing, I don't think it helps anything. But Distro reviews on mainstream sites and things like Linux installfests are not wastes of time. I think putting Linux (the word, the concept, whatever) in front of someone who has never heard of it or seen it before is a worthwhile thing no matter how small or insignificant it might seem. Unless it's done in a negative light of course.

[RandalSchwartz]

But here's a real world example. Our office of 15 or so people switched to using Firefox (on XP) about 2 or 3 years ago. For web browsing, it's all we run. However no one, NO ONE, has a clue that it is free (as in speech) software. NO ONE has a clue what the hell free software is, nevermind the concept of software freedom. While it has succeeded at replacing IE, it has done nothing for FOSS here. Mind you this is one example, but I'm not sure FF does all that much for the FOSS community when you look at real world users (not computer geeks). Sad to say.

And I'm going to disagree with you there. There are two parts to FLOSS for me.

There's the idea that programmers of the world can get access to good software bases to build on and customize, rather than having to reinvent things from scratch simply because you don't have source code.

Then there's the idea that the end users of the world get higher quality and more appropriately customized software as a result.

While having FF on everyone's desktop might not do anything for the first goal, it clearly is a manifestation of the second goal. Not everyone is a programmer. Not everyone needs to appreciate that the source code is available. But if one of your non-programmer friends comes to you and says "hey, I don't like the way the tab key works here in FF.. can you fix it for me?", you should have a big grin on your face, because you can, because they're running open source, not closed source. That's what FLOSS is about for me.

This is why I think the time focussed on Distro Wars is a bit misleading. Replacing Windows (and maybe OSX for some of you) is a worthwhile goal. But it's only one of many goals. I want people to be able to use FLOSS for everything they do, not just the OS.

That's why I like how SugarCRM can replace proprietary CRM systems. And PostgreSQL can replace Oracle. And FF can replace IE. And Git can replace BitKeeper. And Apache can replace IIS. And The Gimp (sorta) replace PhotoShop. They are all movements forward—toward people running software that can be fixed and customized locally. Even if they are running on locked-up operating systems, they are still an overall win.

Don't be so religious! Be practical! One win at a time. That's what I've been doing for years, even before the FSF existed. As a programmer, give me source code, and I can make your end-user experience better. Use that as your mantra.

[rfquerin]

Randal, I think we're shooting at different targets here.

My point to Gomer_X was that I don't think FF adoption does all that much for Linux in terms of promoting it in front of the mainstream user. I'm not speaking as a developer, or about developers.

I think your right in that free and open source software is advanced piece by piece, with quality software. I've said many times that I think it's inevitable that people will adopt it in many forms and fashions.

As far as being religious about it, you're talking to the wrong person. I'm just your (utterly) average user, who happens to be interested in getting more desktop linux podcast talk to listen to, and who would like to see Linux's representation in the mainstream media increase along with it. Nothing bad (or religious) about that I don't think.