thelinuxlink.net

The interview with Linus starts at 34:27

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 6776623782

First, I want to say that I'm a big fan of Linus. I like the guy, and am very grateful for him giving me, and the rest of the community, this great kernel. That being said, I also have to say that I was disappointed with some of the things he said in this interview, as well as the way he said them, and some things he left unsaid. Following are a few excerpts, and my reactions... (I bolded the parts that I thought particularly stood out)

I'll start off right at the beginning of the interview...

Rose: Linus Torvalds was just a twenty one year old student in 1991 when he created Linux, the ground breaking operating system for computers. After developing the system, he posted it on the Internet for free, inviting users to download, share , and modify. It's popularity has skyrocketed over the last few years. There are currently more than twelve million Linux users. In addition, tech stalwarts including Sun Microsystems, Oracle, and IBM have begun incorporating it into their operations. Today Torvalds is hailed as a hero by the open source community. His new book is quote, "Just For Fun - The Story of an Accidental Revolutionary". I am pleased to have him here at this table for the very first time. Welcome.

Torvalds: Thank you.

It would have been nice if Linus took the opportunity presented to him here to just quickly clarify that he created the Linux kernel which is just one very important part of the OS, and maybe give a quick mention of GNU.


The following starts at 41:49

Rose: Would Linux have met it's potential without the open source system?

Torvalds: No

Rose: There's no way that even you are smart enough to have given it...

Torvalds: People don't realize what an incredible amount of resources it takes to make just about any software project. I mean software is hard to write. You need many programmers even to do just one program, much less create a complete system that you can actually give people a CD and say OK install this and you'll have everything you'll need. You need like hundreds, thousands, of highly paid professionals to do that. And if I hadn't made it available on the Internet that just wouldn't have happened. You have big companies, huge companies, that can afford to do what Linux has done.

Obviously he has a valid point here about how important it is to have financial resources to accomplish more things. But something about the emphasis he places on "highly paid" programmers and how "big" "huge" companies afforded Linux the ability to do what it has done, rubs me the wrong way. Lot's of not so highly paid programmers have brought Linux a long way even before the "big" "huge" companies got religion.

Edit: As pointed out by hellonorman, I think I misinterpreted what Linus was saying here, so I retract criticism on this part.


The following starts at 42:49

Rose: You have copyrighted it?

Torvalds: I and all people who actually have written code for it have copyrighted our code. Actually you don't have to copyright something. You automatically hold the copyright to what ever work you've done. And what is kind of special about Linux is that it kind of uses a Judo trick in copyright law, turning the copyright law kind of against itself, in saying that sure we own the copyright to this, but you get to copy it freely. You can do whatever you want with it. You can use it in any way. You can change it in any way. The only thing that we require is that when you change it and you give it to someone else, you give that somebody else the same rights.

I think here is where I was most disappointed with Linus. He makes a point to talk about this great thing (Judo trick), the GNU GPL licence, but can't bring himself to actually say "GPL" and doesn't point out that this "Judo trick in copyright law" is known as "copyleft", and that the person who invented this great trick is Richard Stallman.


The following starts at 44:50

Torvalds: Absolutely. It's interesting meeting people who are that driven and who live in their own world. I mean that's true of people like Richard Stallman too, who's one of the gods of open source programming. He's so driven. He's so self-assured, just because he knows what he does is right. And it's very interesting meeting people like that. You may not like them as people, but they're fascinating.

So when he does mention Stallman it's this sort of vague backhanded compliment.


Edit: Oh, and here is Linus' prediction from that interview in 2001 of where "Linux on the Desktop" would be in five years (2006)... he was confident

The following starts at 40:18

Rose: Is it a smart question or a stupid question to ask, will Linux supplant Windows?

Torvalds: It's a hard question to answer. I don't know if it's a smart question to ask.

Rose: Why is it a hard question to answer? Will this just be a niche operating system that...?

Torvalds: I think Linux has a very strong future on the desktop.

Rose: On the desktop?

Torvalds: Including the desktop. I mean Linux already has like a quarter of the web server market or a little more. So, in certain markets Linux is very strong today. The desktop is obviously for a lot of reasons it's a very interesting market. And it's also very obviously a market that Microsoft completely dominates today. And makes a lot of money dominating. And it's a market a lot of people have tried to enter. I mean Apple... IBM tried with OS2. A lot of the Unix vendors tried and the only reason your average person doesn't even know that they tried is that they failed so horribly. The reason I think Linux actually has a chance... why I feel in five years the situation will be different is that Linux kind of works around the market. A lot of people are very interested in the desktop, so a lot of people will be working on all the applications going on the desktop, making it look nice, and you can really see the changes that have been going on the last few years.

I guess interpretations can vary but I don't find anything he said "disappointing".

I do think you miss the point about highly paid programmers. I think what he is saying is that the open source community created something that would normally take a huge company with hundreds or thousands of high paid programmers to create.

hellonorman wrote:I do think you miss the point about highly paid programmers. I think what he is saying is that the open source community created something that would normally take a huge company with hundreds or thousands of high paid programmers to create.

After looking at it a second time, I think you may be right. I think I took what he said here the wrong way.

greggh:
It seems you see him as martyr, which by the way he never said he was.
He's in it for fun. Have you read his book?

jnash2001 wrote:greggh:
It seems you see him as martyr, which by the way he never said he was.
He's in it for fun. Have you read his book?

Oh no, I absolutely do not see Linus as a martyr. In fact I don't think Linus thinks too deeply or puts much stress on the "free" aspect of Linux and what having it licensed under the GPL really has meant to the project and to the community. I'm sure he thinks it's been a good thing, but it's hardly at the top of his priorities. I'm okay with that. But I think it would be nice if that when these topics come up in interviews, he was a little bit more forthcoming with credit where credit is due.

Oh no, I absolutely do not see Linus as a martyr. In fact I don't think Linus thinks too deeply or puts much stress on the "free" aspect of Linux and what having it licensed under the GPL really has meant to the project and to the community. I'm sure he thinks it's been a good thing, but it's hardly at the top of his priorities. I'm okay with that. But I think it would be nice if that when these topics come up in interviews, he was a little bit more forthcoming with credit where credit is due.

IIRC, he has given credit before.
But look at the audience here. What did you expect? That he started raving about the four freedoms of GPL?

jnash2001 wrote:

Oh no, I absolutely do not see Linus as a martyr. In fact I don't think Linus thinks too deeply or puts much stress on the "free" aspect of Linux and what having it licensed under the GPL really has meant to the project and to the community. I'm sure he thinks it's been a good thing, but it's hardly at the top of his priorities. I'm okay with that. But I think it would be nice if that when these topics come up in interviews, he was a little bit more forthcoming with credit where credit is due.

IIRC, he has given credit before.
But look at the audience here. What did you expect? That he started raving about the four freedoms of GPL?

Point taken. But I still think a quick mention was called for. The way Linus made it sound, one would come away with the idea that Linus or Linux invented copyleft...

Linus: "And what is kind of special about Linux is that it kind of uses a Judo trick in copyright law..."

greggh wrote:

jnash2001 wrote:

Oh no, I absolutely do not see Linus as a martyr. In fact I don't think Linus thinks too deeply or puts much stress on the "free" aspect of Linux and what having it licensed under the GPL really has meant to the project and to the community. I'm sure he thinks it's been a good thing, but it's hardly at the top of his priorities. I'm okay with that. But I think it would be nice if that when these topics come up in interviews, he was a little bit more forthcoming with credit where credit is due.

IIRC, he has given credit before.
But look at the audience here. What did you expect? That he started raving about the four freedoms of GPL?

Point taken. But I still think a quick mention was called for. The way Linus made it sound, one would come away with the idea that Linus or Linux invented copyleft...

Linus: "And what is kind of special about Linux is that it kind of uses a Judo trick in copyright law..."

Well this is Linus Torvalds we're talking about, would you honestly expect him to give credit to the FSF or the GNU project? Such a thing belong in dream land in my opinion. During the drafting of GPLv3 all Linus ever did was spread FUD and confuse people, I do not know that he participated in the process, all he did was be a loudmouth and bitch.