hellonorman wrote:Dude you are way too defensive about this.
Maybe, but I hate when people blame the wrong people for a problem. When people find their new 400 dollar ATi cards to work like crap under Linux they often blame Linux, WTF is that shit about? We don't have the stinking documentation for the hardware, nor do we have a trace of source code that enables acceleration that we as a community can maintain. Blame ATi damn it, send them angry emails.
hellonorman wrote:Do you think Gnome will use akonadi or will they come up with their own system?
If Akonadi doesn't depend of any sort of KDE specific things, I don't see why they couldn't use it for GNOME 3 for example, this is what Akonadi looks like:
It may be the KDE developers who is making this, primarily because they a building a brand new major version, but that's not to say that it's a "KDE thing", I classify things as KDE things if they have dependencies or in other ways need KDE components to be functional, and from the diagram I just showed you, I don't see why this would be the case with Akonadi.
hellonorman wrote:The point is that increasingly choosing a DE means choosing a set of applications to fully utilize that DE.
Just you wait and see what Qt 4.2 can do, check this out:
http://doc.trolltech.com/4.2/qt4-2-intr ... ntegration
hellonorman wrote:It means that often developers must choose a DE to integrate the most features into their apps.
Well, you can only work with one API when doing a desktop application in the way we are talking about it right now. I know you can make an app that can be displayed with either Qt or GTK (YaST and Ubiquity are good examples), but doing an actual end-user application this way that integrates well in both KDE and GNOME, let's take Amarok as an example, I think is just technically infeasible or virtually impossible.
hellonorman wrote:It means that increasingly distros have to choose a DE to base their fit and finish around.
Well, just to say something positive about Novell, and SUSE, if you download openSUSE and boot it up, very early in the installation process you're forced to pick a desktop, and either one is put together equally well, very polished, slick looking, and the whole kitchen sink of stuff you'd except from desktop specific distributions.
hellonorman wrote:I don't see that as a good thing.
If you have a different view than please share.
Well, I agree that running Kontact under GNOME is not particularly great, to say it politely. What you say about choosing a desktop based on it's apps has been the case for actual OS platforms for years and years. I see graphics guys use Macs because there's a lot of programs on that platform that can do the things they need, I see people use Windows because all the new games are on that platform and I see people using Linux and FreeBSD for workstations and servers, because they do that job really well. This is also the case with gaming consoles, I buy Nintendo's machines because they have the kinds, or specific, games that I want to play.
I choose KDE primarily because of it's apps like Amarok, digiKam, Kontact, Konqueror, Kaffeine, K3b, BasKet etc. etc.
If you think this is a new concept, you're in for a surprise it has been the case for years.
hellonorman wrote:If you are just going lash out because you perceive my post as a rag on KDE than don't bother.
By all means, rag on KDE all you want, as long as you don't make bullshit, like some ignorant-GNOME-people (I'm not generalizing GNOME people here, I'm referring to the ignorant ones), do about Qt's licensing (IT'S BEEN GPLED FOR OVER SIX FUCKING YEARS NOW). The argument of KDE needing to organize their control center, or the interface of Konqueror a little better I fully agree with, that I think they need to improve on, for example, the way you define which app you're using for email so that mailto: links on webpages in Konqueror opens up in the right app, that is barried in a place called KDE Components, a user would never even think to look there, I mean that's a place where GNOME does that specific thing a lot better, they have a thing called "Preferred applications" where you just set it to whatever program you want to launch when doing this and this.
Wally Balljacker wrote:As much as I like having the abundance of choices on the Linux desktop, the lack of consistency across desktop environments and applications frustrates the hell out of me. I don't care who's fault it is, I don't care if the GNOME guys are the problem. FIX IT. The end user shouldn't be presented with any of this crap. All apps should look and feel the same across all desktop environments. KDE and GNOME have been around for how many years now? And how well do they integrate? Get your sh!t together already.
I think the problem here is that you may, somewhere, expect people to do things at a certain phase. Look when you have democracy, and not a dictatorship, then you need to agree on things, and sometimes things just takes time to work out. Microsoft can say "We'll scrap WinFS to ship Vista in 1½ years" despite a lot of developers potentially having put their heart and soul into the code that is being scrapped. In the free and open source software world, people can say "No, this thing is a good idea and I am gonna finish it". In a dictator led state like North Korea, I'm sure you can get a new law done very quickly, or get some new bomb set up very quickly, because you don't have to debate things with like human rights activists or other people, you just do it because one person is in charge. In a democracy, people can actually protest against law proposals and stuff, the EFF struck down the broadcast flag, if the US' president was the guy who is president of the RIAA, I think we would already have the broadcast flag and any technology without it would be illegal.
In the free and open source software world, we have chosen the path of openness and "democracy" and those may increase the amount of time it takes to do certain things that Apple may be able to do within a year or even six months.
Yes, I know that KDE and GNOME both have been around for a very long time, but I think that it's only within the last 3½ years that they have become "ready" (I hate that word) for average users, maybe a certain thing was missing in the control center, or you have to mount a drive manually with the commandline or you had some other little thing that was missing in the desktop to make it user-friendly enough for say my mom to use it. Today it's very different, today, you can plug in your USB camera have it automatically mounted and then picked up by digiKam, or put in a CD and tell an app to rip it (Or drag and drop in Konqueror), there's just so many things that have been solved over a very short amount of time when we look back at it now.
The Linux desktop will have it's issues solved at it's own phase or way, not Apple or Microsoft's phases or ways.
Wally Balljacker wrote:And, Tsuroerusu, please stop apologizing for Linux.
I'm not apologizing for anything, I just want credit where credit is due, and complaints where complaints are due. And I think complaints against KDE making a cross-desktop framework for storage address book data, email, etc. etc.
It's you wanting interoperability and compatibility, I'm arguing that it's stupid to rag on people trying to create a system to enable this, I think Akonadi is exactly the kind of thing we need, that way I can just install Evolution and fire it up to see if I like it better than Kontact without having to export and import my mails and all that fancy stuff, and have my filters just be there because they store data in the same place in the same way.
Wally Balljacker wrote:This is an area that clearly needs work, and when the topic is brought up you act like a kid with his hands over his ears, saying "I'M NOT LISTENING!"
"Believe what you want to"
Did I ever say this area didn't need work? No I didn't!!
And no I don't put my hands over my ears in order not to listen, I listen to your complaint, and then think about what solutions are out, and right now, for say Kopete and Evolution to work together, they need to be able to read each other's data, which they currently cannot do.
I hear people say the things you say all the time, it's all complaints, complaints, complaints, complaints and more complaints. I have never once seen a blog post, a comment on digg or similar give an actual solution to the "problem", and even when it's just a little in that direction it's like "We need to have GNOME and KDE merge and just have one unified desktop" and hopefully we can both agree that that is an utterly ridiculous idea. Both KDE and GNOME are millions of lines of source code, done in different languages with different toolkits and different APIs, how could you ever possibly merge all that? Plus the people who make those technologies may work in different ways, like Zack not liking C for GUI apps, but some people do.
But as I said, I am not saying that there aren't a problem that needs to be solved, so let me ask you, what should we do about the problem?
People can complain all they want, but if nobody even tries to come up with some rational and constructive criticism and suggest a soluion to the problem, then some people, and namely me, just loose respect for people making all those complaints (Not saying that I have).
