Thoughts on the Zack Rusin interview and DE's

[hellonorman]

Linc asked a very good question of Zack in regards to Thunderbird and how it would fit in with all the development going on in KDE4. The answer was of course that it doesn't and it should switch to the "KDE way".

This is one of the things that has bothered me lately about using linux. I find the increasing number of DE centric applications to be more of a problem than progress. And before you say you can run any app in any DE, it's often not the same. And from the way Zack was talking running a KDE program in Gnome or vice versa is going to result in more and more loss of functionality unless the two camps start working together on compatability.

Are distros that currently use gnome going to swith to KDE 4 if it is really good? Will this set the distros back having to do so? What if the next gnome is really good will they switch back? The problem with this is that with all the DE centric apps switching between gnome and kde means switching apps as well.

What do you think?

[snarkout]

99% of the time I like the kde or qt apps. I like k3b a lot more than, say, gnomebaker. I like konqueror more than I like firefox (though I admit to missing the plugins). I like kaffeine (though the UI really sucks these days) much better than totem. I like amarok much better than rythmbox. Unfortunately I think grip kicks the ass of any kde/qt app of the same sort, though. I really, really like grip though.

But I do see what you are saying - the lack of integration sucks - save dialogs are the place I find this to be the case most often. I *like* the kde way, and generally dislike the gnome way. I also hate using the qt-kde-engine, but have started using qtcurve instead. Other than these issues, though, I'm happy enough to use gtk/gnome apps with a kde desktop.

[Tsuroerusu]

Linc asked a very good question of Zack in regards to Thunderbird and how it would fit in with all the development going on in KDE4. The answer was of course that it doesn't and it should switch to the "KDE way".

This is one of the things that has bothered me lately about using linux. I find the increasing number of DE centric applications to be more of a problem than progress. And before you say you can run any app in any DE, it's often not the same. And from the way Zack was talking running a KDE program in Gnome or vice versa is going to result in more and more loss of functionality unless the two camps start working together on compatability.

Are distros that currently use gnome going to swith to KDE 4 if it is really good? Will this set the distros back having to do so? What if the next gnome is really good will they switch back? The problem with this is that with all the DE centric apps switching between gnome and kde means switching apps as well.

What do you think?

OK, for once I'm gonna use this kind of phrase in a way I mean is seriously, you're confusing Zack's answer with some non-sense, non-facts and a bit of something else.

If you listen to what Zack actually said, you will hear that the KDE guys are working to make Akonadi, the new storage framework for KDE 4.0, cross-desktop compatible, so that Evolution and Thunderbird can use it, IF THEY DECIDE TO DO SO. I wouldn't call this a KDE way to do things, but rather a new way to do things.

Also, first of all, in the case of Thunderbird, it already uses it's own way to store data and settings, neither KDE or GNOME has any say over Thunderbird. I feel you're raggin' a little bit on KDE because they are trying something that really looks like it could be a vast improvement. Plus neither Thunderbird or Evolution currently integrates into KDE, why shouldn't they make their stuff work with KDE (Just playing complete opposite against the argument I'm got out of your post).

KDE and GNOME are working together in the Portland project, what else should they be doing? Are you expecting them to merge codebases like some retarded incompetent people who don't realize that it's technically unfeasible, or should they use accurately the same way of storage data which may not fit both say Evolution and Kontact be cause the current formats aren't flexible enough (It seems that Akonadi will solve this).

And regarding Thunderbird, are you expecting the KDE people to go out and rewrite a huge part of of Thunderbird when it already is a little GNOMish in a way (file dialogs, and some other stuff) ?

[hellonorman]

Linc asked a very good question of Zack in regards to Thunderbird and how it would fit in with all the development going on in KDE4. The answer was of course that it doesn't and it should switch to the "KDE way".

This is one of the things that has bothered me lately about using linux. I find the increasing number of DE centric applications to be more of a problem than progress. And before you say you can run any app in any DE, it's often not the same. And from the way Zack was talking running a KDE program in Gnome or vice versa is going to result in more and more loss of functionality unless the two camps start working together on compatability.

Are distros that currently use gnome going to swith to KDE 4 if it is really good? Will this set the distros back having to do so? What if the next gnome is really good will they switch back? The problem with this is that with all the DE centric apps switching between gnome and kde means switching apps as well.

What do you think?

OK, for once I'm gonna use this kind of phrase in a way I mean is seriously, you're confusing Zack's answer with some non-sense, non-facts and a bit of something else.

If you listen to what Zack actually said, you will hear that the KDE guys are working to make Akonadi, the new storage framework for KDE 4.0, cross-desktop compatible, so that Evolution and Thunderbird can use it, IF THEY DECIDE TO DO SO. I wouldn't call this a KDE way to do things, but rather a new way to do things.

Also, first of all, in the case of Thunderbird, it already uses it's own way to store data and settings, neither KDE or GNOME has any say over Thunderbird. I feel you're raggin' a little bit on KDE because they are trying something that really looks like it could be a vast improvement. Plus neither Thunderbird or Evolution currently integrates into KDE, why shouldn't they make their stuff work with KDE (Just playing complete opposite against the argument I'm got out of your post).

KDE and GNOME are working together in the Portland project, what else should they be doing? Are you expecting them to merge codebases like some retarded incompetent people who don't realize that it's technically unfeasible, or should they use accurately the same way of storage data which may not fit both say Evolution and Kontact be cause the current formats aren't flexible enough (It seems that Akonadi will solve this).

And regarding Thunderbird, are you expecting the KDE people to go out and rewrite a huge part of of Thunderbird when it already is a little GNOMish in a way (file dialogs, and some other stuff) ?

Dude you are way too defensive about this.

Do you think Gnome will use akonadi or will they come up with their own system? The point is that increasingly choosing a DE means choosing a set of applications to fully utilize that DE. It means that often developers must choose a DE to integrate the most features into their apps. It means that increasingly distros have to choose a DE to base their fit and finish around.

I don't see that as a good thing.

If you have a different view than please share. If you are just going lash out because you perceive my post as a rag on KDE than don't bother.

[Wally Balljacker]

As much as I like having the abundance of choices on the Linux desktop, the lack of consistency across desktop environments and applications frustrates the hell out of me. I don't care who's fault it is, I don't care if the GNOME guys are the problem. FIX IT. The end user shouldn't be presented with any of this crap. All apps should look and feel the same across all desktop environments. KDE and GNOME have been around for how many years now? And how well do they integrate? Get your sh!t together already.

And, Tsuroerusu, please stop apologizing for Linux. This is an area that clearly needs work, and when the topic is brought up you act like a kid with his hands over his ears, saying "I'M NOT LISTENING!"

[Wally Balljacker]

Just to get an idea of where I'm coming from, I'm using Enlightenment DR17 right now, and the level of integration with KDE and GNOME applications is terrible. GNOME applications look completely out of place, using an ugly gray and blue color scheme. KDE applications like Konqueror carry their fisher-price blue theme on over, which looks extremely awkward, since my E17 theme is the default gold and white. It looks like a complete hodgepodge. It's a mess, really. This isn't even limited to E17. Every window manager I've ever used also suffers from this.

Applications shouldn't be desktop centric at all, they should be completely DE independent. I HATE having to choose between applications based on whatever desktop I happen to be using. A perfect example of this is Ktorrent and Azureus. Azureus is the more feature-rich application of the two, but I use Ktorrent because it actually integrates into my desktop scheme when I use KDE. Frankly, I'm tired of this. It just makes me want to use OS X, instead.

[hellonorman]

Just to get an idea of where I'm coming from, I'm using Enlightenment DR17 right now, and the level of integration with KDE and GNOME applications is terrible. GNOME applications look completely out of place, using an ugly gray and blue color scheme. KDE applications like Konqueror carry their fisher-price blue theme on over, which looks extremely awkward, since my E17 theme is the default gold and white. It looks like a complete hodgepodge. It's a mess, really. This isn't even limited to E17. Every window manager I've ever used also suffers from this.

Applications shouldn't be desktop centric at all, they should be completely DE independent. I HATE having to choose between applications based on whatever desktop I happen to be using. A perfect example of this is Ktorrent and Azureus. Azureus is the more feature-rich application of the two, but I use Ktorrent because it actually integrates into my desktop scheme when I use KDE. Frankly, I'm tired of this. It just makes me want to use OS X, instead.

That's a big part of it. I'm also refering to integration in the sense of how these programs can talk to each other and share data. How increasingly you have to choose the KDE or Gnome specific apps to have that happen.

[greggh]

I would really like to use KDE and prefer the look and feel of it to Gnome. But everytime I tried KDE on two different systems I get Sig11 errors and crashes fairly regularly. I have found Gnome to be much more stable on my machines (a Duron and a Sempron).

[Tsuroerusu]

Dude you are way too defensive about this.

Maybe, but I hate when people blame the wrong people for a problem. When people find their new 400 dollar ATi cards to work like crap under Linux they often blame Linux, WTF is that shit about? We don't have the stinking documentation for the hardware, nor do we have a trace of source code that enables acceleration that we as a community can maintain. Blame ATi damn it, send them angry emails.

Do you think Gnome will use akonadi or will they come up with their own system?

If Akonadi doesn't depend of any sort of KDE specific things, I don't see why they couldn't use it for GNOME 3 for example, this is what Akonadi looks like:



It may be the KDE developers who is making this, primarily because they a building a brand new major version, but that's not to say that it's a "KDE thing", I classify things as KDE things if they have dependencies or in other ways need KDE components to be functional, and from the diagram I just showed you, I don't see why this would be the case with Akonadi.

The point is that increasingly choosing a DE means choosing a set of applications to fully utilize that DE.

Just you wait and see what Qt 4.2 can do, check this out: http://doc.trolltech.com/4.2/qt4-2-intr ... ntegration

It means that often developers must choose a DE to integrate the most features into their apps.

Well, you can only work with one API when doing a desktop application in the way we are talking about it right now. I know you can make an app that can be displayed with either Qt or GTK (YaST and Ubiquity are good examples), but doing an actual end-user application this way that integrates well in both KDE and GNOME, let's take Amarok as an example, I think is just technically infeasible or virtually impossible.

It means that increasingly distros have to choose a DE to base their fit and finish around.

Well, just to say something positive about Novell, and SUSE, if you download openSUSE and boot it up, very early in the installation process you're forced to pick a desktop, and either one is put together equally well, very polished, slick looking, and the whole kitchen sink of stuff you'd except from desktop specific distributions.

I don't see that as a good thing.

If you have a different view than please share.

Well, I agree that running Kontact under GNOME is not particularly great, to say it politely. What you say about choosing a desktop based on it's apps has been the case for actual OS platforms for years and years. I see graphics guys use Macs because there's a lot of programs on that platform that can do the things they need, I see people use Windows because all the new games are on that platform and I see people using Linux and FreeBSD for workstations and servers, because they do that job really well. This is also the case with gaming consoles, I buy Nintendo's machines because they have the kinds, or specific, games that I want to play.
I choose KDE primarily because of it's apps like Amarok, digiKam, Kontact, Konqueror, Kaffeine, K3b, BasKet etc. etc.

If you think this is a new concept, you're in for a surprise it has been the case for years.

If you are just going lash out because you perceive my post as a rag on KDE than don't bother.

By all means, rag on KDE all you want, as long as you don't make bullshit, like some ignorant-GNOME-people (I'm not generalizing GNOME people here, I'm referring to the ignorant ones), do about Qt's licensing (IT'S BEEN GPLED FOR OVER SIX FUCKING YEARS NOW). The argument of KDE needing to organize their control center, or the interface of Konqueror a little better I fully agree with, that I think they need to improve on, for example, the way you define which app you're using for email so that mailto: links on webpages in Konqueror opens up in the right app, that is barried in a place called KDE Components, a user would never even think to look there, I mean that's a place where GNOME does that specific thing a lot better, they have a thing called "Preferred applications" where you just set it to whatever program you want to launch when doing this and this.

As much as I like having the abundance of choices on the Linux desktop, the lack of consistency across desktop environments and applications frustrates the hell out of me. I don't care who's fault it is, I don't care if the GNOME guys are the problem. FIX IT. The end user shouldn't be presented with any of this crap. All apps should look and feel the same across all desktop environments. KDE and GNOME have been around for how many years now? And how well do they integrate? Get your sh!t together already.

I think the problem here is that you may, somewhere, expect people to do things at a certain phase. Look when you have democracy, and not a dictatorship, then you need to agree on things, and sometimes things just takes time to work out. Microsoft can say "We'll scrap WinFS to ship Vista in 1½ years" despite a lot of developers potentially having put their heart and soul into the code that is being scrapped. In the free and open source software world, people can say "No, this thing is a good idea and I am gonna finish it". In a dictator led state like North Korea, I'm sure you can get a new law done very quickly, or get some new bomb set up very quickly, because you don't have to debate things with like human rights activists or other people, you just do it because one person is in charge. In a democracy, people can actually protest against law proposals and stuff, the EFF struck down the broadcast flag, if the US' president was the guy who is president of the RIAA, I think we would already have the broadcast flag and any technology without it would be illegal.

In the free and open source software world, we have chosen the path of openness and "democracy" and those may increase the amount of time it takes to do certain things that Apple may be able to do within a year or even six months.

Yes, I know that KDE and GNOME both have been around for a very long time, but I think that it's only within the last 3½ years that they have become "ready" (I hate that word) for average users, maybe a certain thing was missing in the control center, or you have to mount a drive manually with the commandline or you had some other little thing that was missing in the desktop to make it user-friendly enough for say my mom to use it. Today it's very different, today, you can plug in your USB camera have it automatically mounted and then picked up by digiKam, or put in a CD and tell an app to rip it (Or drag and drop in Konqueror), there's just so many things that have been solved over a very short amount of time when we look back at it now.

The Linux desktop will have it's issues solved at it's own phase or way, not Apple or Microsoft's phases or ways.

And, Tsuroerusu, please stop apologizing for Linux.

I'm not apologizing for anything, I just want credit where credit is due, and complaints where complaints are due. And I think complaints against KDE making a cross-desktop framework for storage address book data, email, etc. etc.
It's you wanting interoperability and compatibility, I'm arguing that it's stupid to rag on people trying to create a system to enable this, I think Akonadi is exactly the kind of thing we need, that way I can just install Evolution and fire it up to see if I like it better than Kontact without having to export and import my mails and all that fancy stuff, and have my filters just be there because they store data in the same place in the same way.

This is an area that clearly needs work, and when the topic is brought up you act like a kid with his hands over his ears, saying "I'M NOT LISTENING!"

"Believe what you want to"

Did I ever say this area didn't need work? No I didn't!!
And no I don't put my hands over my ears in order not to listen, I listen to your complaint, and then think about what solutions are out, and right now, for say Kopete and Evolution to work together, they need to be able to read each other's data, which they currently cannot do.

I hear people say the things you say all the time, it's all complaints, complaints, complaints, complaints and more complaints. I have never once seen a blog post, a comment on digg or similar give an actual solution to the "problem", and even when it's just a little in that direction it's like "We need to have GNOME and KDE merge and just have one unified desktop" and hopefully we can both agree that that is an utterly ridiculous idea. Both KDE and GNOME are millions of lines of source code, done in different languages with different toolkits and different APIs, how could you ever possibly merge all that? Plus the people who make those technologies may work in different ways, like Zack not liking C for GUI apps, but some people do.

But as I said, I am not saying that there aren't a problem that needs to be solved, so let me ask you, what should we do about the problem?

People can complain all they want, but if nobody even tries to come up with some rational and constructive criticism and suggest a soluion to the problem, then some people, and namely me, just loose respect for people making all those complaints (Not saying that I have).

[Judland]

I always get nervous when people start talking about "legislating" Linux application development. There's always a chance of losing something more than just an ugly interface.

If a person's biggest beef about a Linux system is how it looks and this is why a Microsoft or Apple OS is a "better system", then I think the point of what Linux and F/OSS stands for is being missed.

A brief example:

A kid somewhere in the world comes up with a wonderful idea for an application. So she decides that she wants to write it for the Linux community and share it with the rest of the world. She codes it and releases it, but the Linux community comes back to her and says "this looks like crap on my KDE desktop! Take it back and make it RIGHT!"

I see one of two things happening; she spends more of her free time and redevelops it to conform to the Linux community demands -or- she says "fruck you" and sells the idea to Microsoft or Apple because that's what they do (buy up other peoples innovations to call it their own).

I agree that some applications under Linux looks like crap. But they work and work well. I can easily get by an ugly interface, but ugly code, terrible functionality and a bunch of restrictive rules are things I don't put up with. Beauty is all in the eye of the beholder anyway.

Right or wrong, that's just the way I am. I could also me mis-interpreting this entire thread.

[Judland]

My opinion that a pretty interface isn't as important as functionality comes from my computing background, I suppose.

The days of C64 and DOS are still fresh in my mind. Back then most everything was command line and lack luster GUIs. But, damn, did those computers do some amazing and wonderful things!

I guess that's where my interests are: in what a computer allows me to do. And when you compare Gnome or KDE to GEOS, things ain't all that bad. Right, Linc?

[doublejoon]

I would really like to use KDE and prefer the look and feel of it to Gnome. But everytime I tried KDE on two different systems I get Sig11 errors and crashes fairly regularly. I have found Gnome to be much more stable on my machines (a Duron and a Sempron).

I have had the same experiences. I always see errors no matter what version what distro

[sulfide]

But as I said, I am not saying that there aren't problems that needs to be solved, so let me ask you, what should we do about the problem?

People can complain all they want, but if nobody even tries to come up with some rational and constructive criticism and suggest a solution to the problem, then some people, and namely me, just lose respect for people making all those complaints (Not saying that I have).

Well said. I prefer the different looks and feel of different desktop environments, shells(e17), and window managers. My only hope is a commonplace for data and configuration storage, which looks like this Akonadi might solve (I guess I should take a peek). One obstacle could be getting adoption from the other projects, but hey, thats all in choice..thats one of the reasons I started using Linux to begin with.

IMO if someone wants that locked in unified choice, then maybe Linux isn't for them, but hey..thats not a bad thing! Coexisting is key.

[Judland]

I would really like to use KDE and prefer the look and feel of it to Gnome. But everytime I tried KDE on two different systems I get Sig11 errors and crashes fairly regularly. I have found Gnome to be much more stable on my machines (a Duron and a Sempron).

I have had the same experiences. I always see errors no matter what version what distro

You didn't happen to log these bugs into the KDE Bug Tracking system ( http://bugs.kde.org/ ) did you?

[mowestusa]

My opinion that a pretty interface isn't as important as functionality comes from my computing background, I suppose.

The days of C64 and DOS are still fresh in my mind. Back then most everything was command line and lack luster GUIs. But, damn, did those computers do some amazing and wonderful things!

I guess that's where my interests are: in what a computer allows me to do. And when you compare Gnome or KDE to GEOS, things ain't all that bad. Right, Linc?

Judland,
Thank you for making a point for some of the others who have lived through interesting times in the computer world.
This thread has complants about GUI differences, programs failing to work together, and frustrations over different dialogs.

The first computer I owned was an Amiga. All the programs that Commodore produced looked the same, acted the same, and worked together. After that, forget it. I had a great Wordprocessor for the Amiga called Excellence, which did their own icons sets for the tool bar, the GUI interface and colors never picked up the theme set in Workbench (the Desktop Environment) and the dialogs would change from one release to the next. We thought we were hot stuff when the PageStream, page layout program, added an import for Excellence files, but did not perfectly keep the formating.

I had to use DOS when not on my Amiga, and there was no such thing as programs working together because there was no such thing as multitasking as we know it today. There were a few hacks you could do if you had enough memory on the machine and processor power which would act kind of like multitasking.

Then there was Windows 3.1. You were still using a lot of DOS programs at that time, and then you had these new GUI programs that were not laided out well. You most of your day clicking, clicking, and clicking to get things done. Talk about lack of theme controls. Those DOS programs just never looked or acted like my "polished" Win 3.1 apps.

For me Win95-WinXP have been more of the same. I've been able to pick out a program done in Borland for years. Those program GUI's use a certain icon set and other tools which every GUI program has but look nothing like the MS Window's programs graciously included in Windows by Bill. I have used lots of different office programs. I can't get MSWord to work with Wordperfect. I can't get those embedded objects in Windows to work right even if I try to embed a MS Excel spreadsheet into a MS Word document. The dialogs look completely different in MS Office and Wordperfect Office. Not all programs pick up the theme of Windows as their default. In fact many programs are into these skins which make no attempt to match a desktop environment theme.

Honestly, Linux is a breath of fresh air for me. I'm impressed that I can even run KDE programs under Gnome and GTK programs under KDE. I'm impressed that many GUI programs have strong interfaces on the CLI so that I don't even have to boot into a Desktop Environment. Is there another OS that has such a strong working relationship between the CLI and the GUI? I'm impressed that so much has been done with volunteer time and efforts, and they give it away for free. I have trouble finding the time to play around with all that Linux has to offer let alone spend hours of my free time coding (which I can't do anyway) or assisting a couple projects.

So, because of my background and my interests, Linux is SWEEETTT!!!

Thanks Zack, Thanks KDE guys, Thanks GTK guys, Thanks Community for everything.