Shuttleworth attempts to lure OpenSuse developers to Ubuntu

[Tsuroerusu]

. It also takes control completely away from the user and in most cases it increases the amount and severity of security and reliability problems.

This statement is huge. When we set ourselves up to lose that control,
Linux becomes no better than many other OS's available.

Precisely, because if you load a proprietary driver into your system, you have absolutely no idea what it does, it could potentially do DRM and TPM in the kernel and shit like that. Once you break the trust that a free and open source OS gives you, it's just broken (The trust).

The 2year old nvidia buffer overflow was a prime example of this.

Yeah man, when that hit Slashdot I could just almost hear Theo de Raadt laugh his ass off, all the way from Calgary!

[Wally Balljacker]

Precisely, because if you load a proprietary driver into your system, you have absolutely no idea what it does, it could potentially do DRM and TPM in the kernel and shat like that. Once you break the trust that a free and open source OS gives you, it's just broken (The trust).

Paranoid, are we? Honestly, I don't mind using a "binary blob" from Nvidia. It would be nice if the driver was open, for obvious reasons, but it isn't. Without it, a desktop is pretty much unusable for me. I would love to use the "nv" driver built into the kernel, but it sucks. It doesn't provide any 3D acceleration, which makes it less than ideal for playing Unreal Tournament. Sorry, but I've got more important things to concern myself with than potential DRM or TPM in a proprietary graphics driver.

[Tsuroerusu]

Paranoid, are we?

I don't understand why anyone wouldn't be with the RIAA and MPAA trying to introduce stuff like Broadcast Flags, further strengthen the DMCA, etc. etc. wouldn't be paranoid!
I would not surprise me if, as soon as PC motherboards with HDCP built-in, they would try to make selling, distributing etc. old machines that does not have hardware DRM built-in.
I may be drawing a nightmare scenario here, but look at how bad it is already with software patents and the DMCA.

Honestly, I don't mind using a "binary blob" from Nvidia. It would be nice if the driver was open, for obvious reasons, but it isn't. Without it, a desktop is pretty much unusable for me. I would love to use the "nv" driver built into the kernel, but it sucks. It doesn't provide any 3D acceleration, which makes it less than ideal for playing Unreal Tournament.

Like Richard Stallman said in an interview on The Screen Savers back in 2000, "It depends on your priorities. It depends on how much you care about convenience today, or standing up for your freedom."

Sorry, but I've got better things to concern myself with than potential DRM or TPM in a proprietary graphics driver.

Well, I guess some people wanna fight for freedom in computing and some don't. Some people in Russia wanted to overthrow the Tsar back in the early 1900'. Some people didn't because they wouldn't want to risk their lives or something else for something that might not even work out. Some people did want to overthrow the Tsar, they went ahead and tried, succeeded.

Of course, I am aware that the Russian communists did horrible things, but it's the best example I can think of right now.

[Wally Balljacker]

Like Richard Stallman said in an interview on The Screen Savers back in 2000, "It depends on your priorities. It depends on how much you care about convenience today, or standing up for your freedom."

And I care about using software that doesn't suck. I refuse to use a piece of crap graphics driver purely because the source code is available to the public. That is silly to me.

You know, I don't understand you, Tsuroerusu. You act like a Free Software purist, quoting RMS all the time, and bashing software because the developers have chosen to keep the source to themselves, yet I know you use programs like Skype, and Adobe Flash. Maybe you should eat your own words, and purge your system of this stuff. Otherwise, stop talking to us like we're bad people for using proprietary software. If there was an open alternative, I'd use it.

[Vogateer]

I thought you used the nvidia drivers, Tsuroerusu. I may be thinking of someone else.

I use the nvidia blob, though I don't care enough about the graphics on my system to tolerate any bad behavior from nvidia. In their defense, if I remember right, it would be about impossible for them to open source their drivers without violating agreements they have with others, and their drivers may be the only competitive advantage they have against ATI.

I would call it paranoid to expect nvidia to do anything nefarious with their drivers. I don't trust Sony, How could you trust them after that rootkit fiasco? I do trust nvidia, though, based on their actions and history. They don't have any intent at the moment to open up the source on their drivers, but they have at least tried to be responsive to the linux community and write quality drivers, which is more than can be said for many companies. It's not ideal, but I'll tolerate it until something better comes along.

Of course, the kernel developers rightly have no reason to respond to me if I start having kernel panics, but I can accept that.

[Vogateer]

yet I know you use programs like Skype, and Adobe Flash. Maybe you should eat your own words, and purge your system of this stuff. Otherwise, stop talking to us like we're bad people for using proprietary software.

Yeah, I thought that, too. I think you're alright, Tsuroerusu, but I still think you could do better. You do come across as preachy pretty often. and this sort of thing sounds hypocritical. Your English is very impressive, but sometimes I do wonder if you couldn't tweak a few phrases to improve the tenor of your posts. But you come across as someone who talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk when you tell us about fighting for freedom while you're using proprietary software yourself.

[Tsuroerusu]

Like Richard Stallman said in an interview on The Screen Savers back in 2000, "It depends on your priorities. It depends on how much you care about convenience today, or standing up for your freedom."

And I care about using software that doesn't suck. I refuse to use a piece of crap graphics driver purely because the source code is available to the public. That is silly to me.

It's not that the graphics driver is crap, it does good 2D stuff which is impressive already in my opinion, because NVIDIA do not release specs.
But as I said it's your choice to make, I don't want to control your choices, that would be dictatorship and I dislike that even more than proprietary software.

You know, I don't understand you, Tsuroerusu. You act like a Free Software purist, quoting RMS all the time, and bashing software because the developers have chosen to keep the source to themselves,

I think all software ought to be free software, but I am not saying anyone should be forced to make the software they make free.

yet I know you use programs like Skype, and Adobe Flash. Maybe you should eat your own words, and purge your system of this stuff.

Those two are actually the only non-free software that I use, and I'll tell you why I use that, and I use them with bitterness.

First of all, Skype. Why do I use it? Well, in Denmark, we have this big-ass all-in-one telephony/ISP/cable company called Tele Danmark Communications (TDC). They have monopoly on the communications market in Denmark like Microsoft has a software monopoly, in fact sometimes you may even mistake the one for the other.
Telephony in Denmark just got more expensive about a month ago, which is pissing a lot of people off, but no single citizen can do shit about it. TDC also charges extremely high prices for decent internet speeds, if you want to have 2048kbit/256kbit, you need to pay over a 100 US dollars!!
The power companies have in recent years bought a shitload of fiber, to expand Denmark's fiber net to regular citizens, and this is a big-ass workaround of TDC's monopoly because they don't use the cobber lines that TDC own, they deploy new fiber, you can see the streets about 800 meters from where I live all dug up because of that. And as you know, fiber is VERY fast, and has almost an unlimited capacity, current max. speeds are 1gbit of the technology itself, and EnergiMidt, my power company, will soon offer a combined TV/Internet package or about 100 US bucks, that contains a 2mbit/2mbit internet connection.
I really really really do want to get rid of Skype, as it's non-free software, believe me when I say that I really do. I wanna use Asterisk, primarily because it's free, but I can know for sure that it does not spy on me, I can do all kinds of fancy things with it. The problem is that Asterisk requires more bandwidth than I currently have, and I just hate TDC with a passion, they treat their customers poorly and they just corrupt the market in my opinion and destroy competition.

I use Skype to avoid TDC's monopoly and their lock down. Yes, it's non-free software, I know it's a little self-defeatist, I am not denying that, but look people had to use guns to fight off a certain dictator about 68 years ago. I may need to use non-free software to avoid an even bigger lock on my throat. But believe me, as soon as I can get rid of it, you can be damn sure I will, and you will know when I do because you will be the first to receive an Asterisk powered phone call from me, so WATCH OUT!

Next, Flash. OK, this one I know I am gonna sound really hypocritical about. I use Flash for the sole purpose of watching YouTube videos, that is it! And the reason that I do that, is because I feel that I learn stuff from watching a lot of stuff. For example, before it got taken down, I had the opportunity to watch the interview from 1993 on the Oprah Winfrey Show, with a personal idol of mine, Michael Jackson (Think what you want of him, I have my reasons for looking up to him, wanna know why, email me). That made me remember things I almost had forgotten, and I really did find a lot of joy in that, and it helped me though a recent period where I was ill (Major stomach problems, 'Nuff said!). During that period I unfortunately developed some mental problems. Watching some specific YouTubed videos, helped me though that.
I have found a cure for that mental problem, it's mainly a visitation of my biological roots. I believe that when dreaming you have access to even the deepest corners of your memory, but since you can't control your dreams, you rarely go to those places of your mind. In the deepest corner of my memory, which I can't access while awake, lays the memory of the women that gave birth to me, the women whom I refer to as my "Sri Lanka mama" (quite, right?). I know I have a picture of her somewhere, and I know exactly what she looks like, picturing that in my mind, kind of makes me relaxed and comforts my mind (And just to Ben, whom I knew could fire a joke off here, it's not like in certain hentai movies, it's like comfort when you're sad as child, if you got hurt or something). That combined with meditation when using some incense sticks from Sri Lanka has almost gotten me back on track, there's a little further to go, I am afraid.

Look, even if Gnash can't do like advanced digg Flash features or stuff. As soon as it can play video, even in a slightly unstable or sound-sync-problematic way, I will ditch Adobe's Flash, you can bet on it.

Otherwise, stop talking to us like we're bad people for using proprietary software. If there was an open alternative, I'd use it.

OK, let me just say something. If I have said something that may have annoyed, maybe I did a personal attack of a sort by accident, let me know, I'm not a native English speaker, so I sometimes have a hard time knowing when I sound harsh except when I explicitly want to sound harsh.
So, I'd like to give you and everyone in here an apology if I have said something that may have hurt your feelings, and if I do it again, please just let me know and I will see to that I do my best to not do it again.

Also, Ben, I just wanna tell you something. If I have said something in this forum or Jabber that you have taken as an insult, please tell me so I can make up for it or otherwise do something about it, the last thing I wanna do is hurt the feelings of my friend's, and I do consider you a valuable friend, even if it's through cables and wires.
Hope to meet you in real life someday in the future, Ohio Linux Fest '08/'09 maybe?

I thought you used the nvidia drivers, Tsuroerusu. I may be thinking of someone else.

I no longer use them, I stopped using them about a month ago. Especially after that exploit came out, that really ticked me off, in addition to the fact that I don't trust graphics card drivers a lot these days, because they will be forced to incorporate HDCP support into their hardware, and that will eventually land in their proprietary drivers, and I do not wanna have digital restrictions management in my kernel, no matter what.
The "nv" driver actually works great for me, it provides me with enough 3D, even if it being Mesa GLX indirect (software rendering?), it does what i need perfectly, in addition to being free.

I use the nvidia blob, though I don't care enough about the graphics on my system to tolerate any bad behavior from nvidia. In their defense, if I remember right, it would be about impossible for them to open source their drivers without violating agreements they have with others, and their drivers may be the only competitive advantage they have against ATI.

This is correct. Recently I have come to realize that NVIDIA or ATi releasing their proprietary drivers as open source or free software drivers will not work for our community in the long run, because when new cards come out, how do we maintain the drivers?
Specifications that document how the hardware works, and tells the kernel and X developers how to write drivers, would be like gold to us. I don't see why NVIDIA couldn't release this sort of thing, they could still offer the proprietary drivers for peeps who wanted to use them, but if they made specs available, free software drivers could be developed and maintained, and I would stop complaining about NVIDIA.

Recently I heard rumors that AMD is trying to work something out with ATi card specs, if they do pull it off (To use a Zack Rusin term), I will go out and buy the most expensive card that I can afford that they release specs for.

I would call it paranoid to expect nvidia to do anything nefarious with their drivers.

With bastard record companies out there, I really am paranoid, because I don't want DRM in any fashion in any of my computers, which is why I will not want a Intel Mac, even for free, if someone gives it to me, I'll sell it to some Apple whore, earn cash and go buy some good hardware that has free drivers, like a motherboard based on ATi's CrossFire Radeon Xpress 3200 chipset, it has official free software support for Linux.

I don't trust Sony, How could you trust them after that rootkit fiasco?

No idea, ask the PS3 fanboys!
(Not pointing at Ben, seriously!)

I do trust nvidia, though, based on their actions and history. They don't have any intent at the moment to open up the source on their drivers, but they have at least tried to be responsive to the linux community and write quality drivers, which is more than can be said for many companies. It's not ideal, but I'll tolerate it until something better comes along.

If they would release specs, I'll shut-up.
Theo de Raadt has had some funny statements (Although I think he was being dead serious, although it sounded funny as all hell). For years he and the OpenBSD team tried to be nice to vendors and asking them politely to give release their proprietary firmware (Not in source form, just the binary .bin file) for wireless cards under the BSD license, or to release interface documentation. They refused, so now Theo is like (Not quoting him) "I tried being nice, didn't work, now they'll have to act to make me shut up".

Of course, the kernel developers rightly have no reason to respond to me if I start having kernel panics, but I can accept that.

Completely fair in my opinion, because since they can't debug NVIDIA's drivers, what could they do, right?

I think you're alright, Tsuroerusu, but I still think you could do better.

Life is one big learning process, so I will be glad to keep trying to learn, which is the very nature of hackers anyway.

You do come across as preachy pretty often. and this sort of thing sounds hypocritical.

Hypocritical I will admit to sounding since I use Flash.

With Skype I think my reason is justified because of the situation I described earlier, but that's again just my opinion.

Your English is very impressive, but sometimes I do wonder if you couldn't tweak a few phrases to improve the tenor of your posts.

I will be glad to do so, but in order for me to do so, I need a little help from you. Can you give me one or two very specific examples of where I sound harsh or something, and the way you think it should sound to not sound offensive to anyone. That would be a big help.

But you come across as someone who talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk when you tell us about fighting for freedom while you're using proprietary software yourself.

Please, see the reasons I mentioned earlier, those will tell you why I use Skype and Flash for now.