with another class. a footer is another good example of something that's often given an ID but there's no need to. and, although this is changing, currently best practice is to reserve IDs for javascript hooks (a la Nicole Sullivan). it's religion, really, but in my mind, using IDs is a holdover from the days of table design where people used IDs to mimic structural design and classes to mimic themes. We just rewrote pages at work to reflect this approach which all the UIs collectively agreed on: get rid of all the IDs and use classes only so we can always reuse them on the page if we need. kelley At 07:44 PM 2/17/2010, Ken Collins wrote: >My thoughts with a caveat that I seldom think about these details now :) > >1) I see a lot of classes that should really be IDs. Generally page >sections are a one per page thing. Perhaps change all DIV's that use one >off class names to IDs instead? > >2) To address the font and semantic happiness for the header would >something like this work? > >

Refresh Hampton Roads

> >#branding { /* ... your normal CSS here for BG ... */ } >#branding h1 { display:none; } > >3) Since the heading graphic is the

for every page, maybe everything >else that is currently and

is really a

? > > > - Ken > > > >On Feb 17, 2010, at 7:25 PM, Kelley Walker wrote: > > > I'm kind of attach to accessibility guidelines because I have so many > friends and acquaintances who use them, and because I was a big > cheerleader for them when I worked on an LMS years ago where we had to > hew to accessibility requirements b/c it wa a product for fortune 100s > and the government, all of whom had accessibility requirements. It really > brought me up close and personal with the increasing numbers of people > who are visually disabled. > > > > According to the W3C: > > > > "When an appropriate markup language exists, use markup rather than > images to convey information. [Priority 2] > > For example, use MathML to mark up mathematical equations, and > style sheets to format text and > control layout. Also, avoid using images to represent text -- use text > and style sheets instead. Refer also to > guideline 6 and > guideline 11. > > Techniques > for checkpoint 3.1 " > > > > Stop Design's Doug Bowman obsessed about the issue for quite awhile > back in 2003 or 2004? He tried using various techniques such as FIR but > came up against problems. I'd have to dig out my notes from back then. or > google it. :) > > > > Oh, thanks google: > http://www.alistapart.com/articles/fir/ > > > > > and thanks again, Cederholm's book has a 2009 version of the debate > where he concludes that the FIR method is still an issue for accessibility: > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=Eli4Z2w8zgkC&pg=PA224&lpg=PA224&dq=%22web+standards%22+images+replace+text&source=bl&ots=kLMPeAqkfQ&sig=6prNvksO0Yw0piN6gb9NKkatQfk&hl=en&ei=s4Z8S8TPCJGcsgPe-_W8Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CB8Q6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=%22web%20standards%22%20images%20replace%20text&f=false > > > > > > My preference is to skip FIR and to skip the images for the sake of > accessibility issues. Use text. We have to compromise so much in our day > jobs, why compromise on something that is about our voluntary efforts, > and about making the world a better place? > > > > Kelley > > > > At 06:08 PM 2/17/2010, Reese wrote: > >> Hello everyone, > >> > >> I'm finishing up work on the design for the Refresh Hampton Roads page. > >> We have a chocolate versus strawberry versus vanilla decision. The site > >> is already image heavy with the large branding image so I'm not sure > >> that we want even more images. So, in the spirit of Refresh and its > >> mission - Web standards - which is preferable: > >> > >> - use of background images where text could be used for headings > >> - use of font-replacement technology that doesn't work in all > >> browsers. it will some day, it isn't yet > >> - use of text only (the current implementation) > >> > >> The text in question? > >> These header text strings from http://www.inkworkswell.net/refresh-hr/ > >> > >> "What is refresh | Hampton Roads?" > >> "our manifesto" > >> "meetings" > >> > >> The driving questions? What is the best practice? Which would reflect > >> best on our commitment to Web standards? > >> > >> Reese > >> > >> _______________________ > >> Wsuug mailing list > >> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > >> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > > > > _ > > Wsuug mailing list > > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > >_________________________ >Wsuug mailing list >Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug From ken at metaskills.net Wed Feb 17 20:22:37 2010 From: ken at metaskills.net (Ken Collins) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:22:37 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] New Web Page In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20100217195527.05139ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> References: <424f9b531002031128o2816311q9cc12b722a004d81@mail.gmail.com> <4B6F5EC4.8040704@inkworkswell.com> <4B7C76EB.4000109@inkworkswell.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217191223.05722ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <4D5AC745-01E0-48B8-A2A6-E4DC385A348C@metaskills.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217195527.05139ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> Message-ID: <243A63D3-CE0A-4231-879F-9F65C7FF62BB@metaskills.net> I would disagree that ID usage is a throw back to table design for layout. Maybe since I do use JS hooks ALOT is why I think ID for page structure is really semantically correct too. I'm open ? but I'd say show me "out of favor" articles. It sounds like programmer premature optimization to make top level nodes classes at the start of a template. Can you share CSS use cases of the "extend" concept? An ID can be extended in the same way a class can, see below. A class to me means that it will be applied to more than one element, #header, #footer #content, never had more than one on a page since 1994 and still counting :) #content { width:960px; } #content .mobile { width:360px; } When I see that in CSS, I know I am detailing with a top level page element. IDs and classes are both important, I really think they should be used when appropriate and I doubt the new age is really to do away with them but love to read new topics if that is the case. - Ken On Feb 17, 2010, at 8:07 PM, Kelley Walker wrote: > using IDs is out of favor. > > there's no good reason to ever think that something won't get reused on a page -- you have to think future proof. in other words, if you can imagine a wholly different design you should avoid IDs so you could use it again. e.g, even branding could potentially be re-used - not in it's current instantiation, but in a future one. for example, what if branding were to be just a simple text piece, like Refresh Hampton Roads, where the branding is using a font and colors, no images: Refresh is green, Hampton Roads is red. and instead of being a fixed design, it's fluid. in which case branding could certainly be used again in some other module on the page where you want to repeat the branding. you'd just extend
with another class. > > a footer is another good example of something that's often given an ID but there's no need to. > > and, although this is changing, currently best practice is to reserve IDs for javascript hooks (a la Nicole Sullivan). > > it's religion, really, but in my mind, using IDs is a holdover from the days of table design where people used IDs to mimic structural design and classes to mimic themes. > > We just rewrote pages at work to reflect this approach which all the UIs collectively agreed on: get rid of all the IDs and use classes only so we can always reuse them on the page if we need. > > kelley > > At 07:44 PM 2/17/2010, Ken Collins wrote: > >> My thoughts with a caveat that I seldom think about these details now :) >> >> 1) I see a lot of classes that should really be IDs. Generally page sections are a one per page thing. Perhaps change all DIV's that use one off class names to IDs instead? >> >> 2) To address the font and semantic happiness for the header would something like this work? >> >>
>>
Refresh Hampton Roads
>>
>> >> #branding { /* ... your normal CSS here for BG ... / } >> #branding h1 { display:none; } >> >> 3) Since the heading graphic is the
for every page, maybe everything else that is currently and
is really a
? >> >> >> - Ken >> >> >> >> On Feb 17, 2010, at 7:25 PM, Kelley Walker wrote: >> >> > I'm kind of attach to accessibility guidelines because I have so many friends and acquaintances who use them, and because I was a big cheerleader for them when I worked on an LMS years ago where we had to hew to accessibility requirements b/c it wa a product for fortune 100s and the government, all of whom had accessibility requirements. It really brought me up close and personal with the increasing numbers of people who are visually disabled. >> > >> > According to the W3C: >> > >> > "When an appropriate markup language exists, use markup rather than images to convey information. [Priority 2] >> > For example, use MathML to mark up mathematical equations, and style sheets to format text and control layout. Also, avoid using images to represent text -- use text and style sheets instead. Refer also to guideline 6 and guideline 11. >> > Techniques for checkpoint 3.1 " >> > >> > Stop Design's Doug Bowman obsessed about the issue for quite awhile back in 2003 or 2004? He tried using various techniques such as FIR but came up against problems. I'd have to dig out my notes from back then. or google it. :) >> > >> > Oh, thanks google: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/fir/ >> > >> > and thanks again, Cederholm's book has a 2009 version of the debate where he concludes that the FIR method is still an issue for accessibility: >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=Eli4Z2w8zgkC&pg=PA224&lpg=PA224&dq=%22web+standards%22+images+replace+text&source=bl&ots=kLMPeAqkfQ&sig=6prNvksO0Yw0piN6gb9NKkatQfk&hl=en&ei=s4Z8S8TPCJGcsgPe-_W8Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CB8Q6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=%22web%20standards%22%20images%20replace%20text&f=false >> > >> > >> > My preference is to skip FIR and to skip the images for the sake of accessibility issues. Use text. We have to compromise so much in our day jobs, why compromise on something that is about our voluntary efforts, and about making the world a better place? >> > >> > Kelley >> > >> > At 06:08 PM 2/17/2010, Reese wrote: >> >> Hello everyone, >> >> >> >> I'm finishing up work on the design for the Refresh Hampton Roads page. >> >> We have a chocolate versus strawberry versus vanilla decision. The site >> >> is already image heavy with the large branding image so I'm not sure >> >> that we want even more images. So, in the spirit of Refresh and its >> >> mission - Web standards - which is preferable: >> >> >> >> - use of background images where text could be used for headings >> >> - use of font-replacement technology that doesn't work in all >> >> browsers. it will some day, it isn't yet >> >> - use of text only (the current implementation) >> >> >> >> The text in question? >> >> These header text strings from http://www.inkworkswell.net/refresh-hr/ >> >> >> >> "What is refresh | Hampton Roads?" >> >> "our manifesto" >> >> "meetings" >> >> >> >> The driving questions? What is the best practice? Which would reflect >> >> best on our commitment to Web standards? >> >> >> >> Reese >> >> >> >> _______________________ >> >> Wsuug mailing list >> >> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >> >> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >> > >> > _ >> > Wsuug mailing list >> > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >> > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >> >> _ >> Wsuug mailing list >> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > > _______________________ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug From ken at metaskills.net Wed Feb 17 20:28:00 2010 From: ken at metaskills.net (Ken Collins) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:28:00 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] New Web Page In-Reply-To: <243A63D3-CE0A-4231-879F-9F65C7FF62BB@metaskills.net> References: <424f9b531002031128o2816311q9cc12b722a004d81@mail.gmail.com> <4B6F5EC4.8040704@inkworkswell.com> <4B7C76EB.4000109@inkworkswell.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217191223.05722ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <4D5AC745-01E0-48B8-A2A6-E4DC385A348C@metaskills.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217195527.05139ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <243A63D3-CE0A-4231-879F-9F65C7FF62BB@metaskills.net> Message-ID: BTW, what about my
in the header comment. Is that a valid way? - Ken On Feb 17, 2010, at 8:22 PM, Ken Collins wrote: > > I would disagree that ID usage is a throw back to table design for layout. Maybe since I do use JS hooks ALOT is why I think ID for page structure is really semantically correct too. I'm open ? but I'd say show me "out of favor" articles. It sounds like programmer premature optimization to make top level nodes classes at the start of a template. Can you share CSS use cases of the "extend" concept? An ID can be extended in the same way a class can, see below. A class to me means that it will be applied to more than one element, #header, #footer #content, never had more than one on a page since 1994 and still counting :) > > #content { width:960px; } > #content .mobile { width:360px; } > > When I see that in CSS, I know I am detailing with a top level page element. IDs and classes are both important, I really think they should be used when appropriate and I doubt the new age is really to do away with them but love to read new topics if that is the case. > > - Ken > > > On Feb 17, 2010, at 8:07 PM, Kelley Walker wrote: > >> using IDs is out of favor. >> >> there's no good reason to ever think that something won't get reused on a page -- you have to think future proof. in other words, if you can imagine a wholly different design you should avoid IDs so you could* use it again. e.g, even branding could potentially be re-used - not in it's current instantiation, but in a future one. for example, what if branding were to be just a simple text piece, like Refresh Hampton Roads, where the branding is using a font and colors, no images: Refresh is green, Hampton Roads is red. and instead of being a fixed design, it's fluid. in which case branding could certainly be used again in some other module on the page where you want to repeat the branding. you'd just extend
with another class. >> >> a footer is another good example of something that's often given an ID but there's no need to. >> >> and, although this is changing, currently best practice is to reserve IDs for javascript hooks (a la Nicole Sullivan). >> >> it's religion, really, but in my mind, using IDs is a holdover from the days of table design where people used IDs to mimic structural design and classes to mimic themes. >> >> We just rewrote pages at work to reflect this approach which all the UIs collectively agreed on: get rid of all the IDs and use classes only so we can always reuse them on the page if we need. >> >> kelley >> >> At 07:44 PM 2/17/2010, Ken Collins wrote: >> >>> My thoughts with a caveat that I seldom think about these details now :) >>> >>> 1) I see a lot of classes that should really be IDs. Generally page sections are a one per page thing. Perhaps change all DIV's that use one off class names to IDs instead? >>> >>> 2) To address the font and semantic happiness for the header would something like this work? >>> >>>
>>>
Refresh Hampton Roads
>>>
>>> >>> #branding { /* ... your normal CSS here for BG ... / } >>> #branding h1 { display:none; } >>> >>> 3) Since the heading graphic is the
for every page, maybe everything else that is currently and
is really a
? >>> >>> >>> - Ken >>> >>> >>> >>> On Feb 17, 2010, at 7:25 PM, Kelley Walker wrote: >>> >>>> I'm kind of attach to accessibility guidelines because I have so many friends and acquaintances who use them, and because I was a big cheerleader for them when I worked on an LMS years ago where we had to hew to accessibility requirements b/c it wa a product for fortune 100s and the government, all of whom had accessibility requirements. It really brought me up close and personal with the increasing numbers of people who are visually disabled. >>>> >>>> According to the W3C: >>>> >>>> "When an appropriate markup language exists, use markup rather than images to convey information. [Priority 2] >>>> For example, use MathML to mark up mathematical equations, and style sheets to format text and control layout. Also, avoid using images to represent text -- use text and style sheets instead. Refer also to guideline 6 and guideline 11. >>>> Techniques for checkpoint 3.1 " >>>> >>>> Stop Design's Doug Bowman obsessed about the issue for quite awhile back in 2003 or 2004? He tried using various techniques such as FIR but came up against problems. I'd have to dig out my notes from back then. or google it. :) >>>> >>>> Oh, thanks google: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/fir/ >>>> >>>> and thanks again, Cederholm's book has a 2009 version of the debate where he concludes that the FIR method is still an issue for accessibility: >>>> http://books.google.com/books?id=Eli4Z2w8zgkC&pg=PA224&lpg=PA224&dq=%22web+standards%22+images+replace+text&source=bl&ots=kLMPeAqkfQ&sig=6prNvksO0Yw0piN6gb9NKkatQfk&hl=en&ei=s4Z8S8TPCJGcsgPe-_W8Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CB8Q6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=%22web%20standards%22%20images%20replace%20text&f=false >>>> >>>> >>>> My preference is to skip FIR and to skip the images for the sake of accessibility issues. Use text. We have to compromise so much in our day jobs, why compromise on something that is about our voluntary efforts, and about making the world a better place? >>>> >>>> Kelley >>>> >>>> At 06:08 PM 2/17/2010, Reese wrote: >>>>> Hello everyone, >>>>> >>>>> I'm finishing up work on the design for the Refresh Hampton Roads page. >>>>> We have a chocolate versus strawberry versus vanilla decision. The site >>>>> is already image heavy with the large branding image so I'm not sure >>>>> that we want even more images. So, in the spirit of Refresh and its >>>>> mission - Web standards - which is preferable: >>>>> >>>>> - use of background images where text could be used for headings >>>>> - use of font-replacement technology that doesn't work in all >>>>> browsers. it will some day, it isn't yet >>>>> - use of text only (the current implementation) >>>>> >>>>> The text in question? >>>>> These header text strings from http://www.inkworkswell.net/refresh-hr/ >>>>> >>>>> "What is refresh | Hampton Roads?" >>>>> "our manifesto" >>>>> "meetings" >>>>> >>>>> The driving questions? What is the best practice? Which would reflect >>>>> best on our commitment to Web standards? >>>>> >>>>> Reese >>>>> >>>>> _______________________ >>>>> Wsuug mailing list >>>>> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >>>>> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >>>> >>>> _ >>>> Wsuug mailing list >>>> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >>>> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >>> >>> _ >>> Wsuug mailing list >>> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >>> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >> >> _ >> Wsuug mailing list >> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug From howell.r at inkworkswell.com Wed Feb 17 20:38:19 2010 From: howell.r at inkworkswell.com (Reese) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:38:19 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] New Web Page In-Reply-To: <4D5AC745-01E0-48B8-A2A6-E4DC385A348C@metaskills.net> References: <424f9b531002031128o2816311q9cc12b722a004d81@mail.gmail.com> <4B6F5EC4.8040704@inkworkswell.com> <4B7C76EB.4000109@inkworkswell.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217191223.05722ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <4D5AC745-01E0-48B8-A2A6-E4DC385A348C@metaskills.net> Message-ID: <4B7C9A0B.1060705@inkworkswell.com> On 17-Feb-10 19:44, Ken Collins wrote: > My thoughts with a caveat that I seldom think about these details now :) > > 1) I see a lot of classes that should really be IDs. Generally page sections are a one per page thing. Perhaps change all DIV's that use one off class names to IDs instead? Well, that's sort of the issue. It's currently a 1-page site but there has been talk of putting a blog in place, so blog-friendliness re: the eventual theme was also a consideration. > 2) To address the font and semantic happiness for the header would something like this work? > >
>
Refresh Hampton Roads
>
> > #branding { / ... your normal CSS here for BG ... / } > #branding h1 { display:none; } That would probably work. But then, lots of other things would probably work too. So what is the best practice? That is the question I asked. I saw that Kelley quoted some from a spec somewhere, the issue as I and Denise see it? The compromise between that verbatim compliance and the yield to the designer(s) so that the page is true to the vision of the designer. Which may make the page a bit less accessible for some. Including some search engines I think. My first effort didn't pay much attention to Denise's specs for font size and face, I had the component widths down but some of the alignments were off. The 2nd effort was better and I thank Denise for the feedback she gave me, but here we are at v0.3 and this one last issue. The only one I'm really kicking up a fuss about. Images or text, for info that c/should be conveyed as text IMO. Is the message that the text conveys more important or is the appearance of the font more important? What is the best practice on this? > 3) Since the heading graphic is the
for every page, maybe everything else that is currently and
is really a
? Well, like I said: It's a 1-page site right now. There is an intention or desire to turn it into a blog and who knows where else it might go, so keeping all of the options open as much as possible, was part of the unwritten spec. Having an integrated mailing list under the same domain name (or a subdomain) also shows a bit of professionalism, so I hope we can work that out equitably. Reese From qwerty823 at gmail.com Wed Feb 17 20:47:52 2010 From: qwerty823 at gmail.com (David McCormick) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:47:52 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] New Web Page In-Reply-To: <4B7C9A0B.1060705@inkworkswell.com> References: <424f9b531002031128o2816311q9cc12b722a004d81@mail.gmail.com> <4B6F5EC4.8040704@inkworkswell.com> <4B7C76EB.4000109@inkworkswell.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217191223.05722ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <4D5AC745-01E0-48B8-A2A6-E4DC385A348C@metaskills.net> <4B7C9A0B.1060705@inkworkswell.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 8:38 PM, Reese wrote: > On 17-Feb-10 19:44, Ken Collins wrote: > >> My thoughts with a caveat that I seldom think about these details now :) >> >> 1) I see a lot of classes that should really be IDs. Generally page >> sections are a one per page thing. Perhaps change all DIV's that use one off >> class names to IDs instead? >> > > Well, that's sort of the issue. It's currently a 1-page site but > there has been talk of putting a blog in place, so blog-friendliness > re: the eventual theme was also a consideration. > > > 2) To address the font and semantic happiness for the header would >> something like this work? >> >>
>>
Refresh Hampton Roads
>>
>> #branding { / ... your normal CSS here for BG ... / } >> #branding h1 { display:none; } >> > > That would probably work. But then, lots of other things would probably > work too. So what is the best practice? That is the question I asked. > > If you care about accessibility, you dont want to use display: none. This will hide from screenreaders. You'd be better off using text-indent: -9999em or the like, or even something like "position: absolute; left: -9999em;". IMHO, you should always have text where you have an image, whether its a off screen element, or alt / title, etc. > I saw that Kelley quoted some from a spec somewhere, the issue as I and > Denise see it? The compromise between that verbatim compliance and the > yield to the designer(s) so that the page is true to the vision of the > designer. Which may make the page a bit less accessible for some. > Including some search engines I think. > > My first effort didn't pay much attention to Denise's specs for font > size and face, I had the component widths down but some of the > alignments were off. The 2nd effort was better and I thank Denise for > the feedback she gave me, but here we are at v0.3 and this one last > issue. The only one I'm really kicking up a fuss about. Images or > text, for info that c/should be conveyed as text IMO. Is the message > that the text conveys more important or is the appearance of the font > more important? What is the best practice on this? > > > 3) Since the heading graphic is the
for every page, maybe everything >> else that is currently and
is really a
? >> > > Well, like I said: It's a 1-page site right now. There is an intention > or desire to turn it into a blog and who knows where else it might go, > so keeping all of the options open as much as possible, was part of the > unwritten spec. Having an integrated mailing list under the same domain > name (or a subdomain) also shows a bit of professionalism, so I hope > we can work that out equitably. > > > Reese > > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kcwalker at inkworkswell.com Wed Feb 17 20:51:07 2010 From: kcwalker at inkworkswell.com (Kelley Walker) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:51:07 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] New Web Page In-Reply-To: <4B7C9A0B.1060705@inkworkswell.com> References: <424f9b531002031128o2816311q9cc12b722a004d81@mail.gmail.com> <4B6F5EC4.8040704@inkworkswell.com> <4B7C76EB.4000109@inkworkswell.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217191223.05722ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <4D5AC745-01E0-48B8-A2A6-E4DC385A348C@metaskills.net> <4B7C9A0B.1060705@inkworkswell.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20100217204738.058488c8@pop.inkworkswell.com> in SEO circles, it's increasingly the case not to bother with making the heading graphic/branding H1. The idea is that you don't really need to tell a search engine about your branding/logo, etc. You'd rather tell it to emphasize the content since there's plenty else to emphasis, say, the name of a site. That's a newer SEO initiative though. I think I read it when I was doing research for the SEO on our company blog. Within the wordpress community, there's a growing tendency to skip wrapping H1 around the blog title for instance, and place H1 around important content. I'm too lazy to look it up now though. ;) At 08:38 PM 2/17/2010, Ken wrote: >>3) Since the heading graphic is the
for every page, maybe everything >>else that is currently and
is really a
? From ken at metaskills.net Wed Feb 17 20:51:46 2010 From: ken at metaskills.net (Ken Collins) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:51:46 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] New Web Page In-Reply-To: References: <424f9b531002031128o2816311q9cc12b722a004d81@mail.gmail.com> <4B6F5EC4.8040704@inkworkswell.com> <4B7C76EB.4000109@inkworkswell.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217191223.05722ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <4D5AC745-01E0-48B8-A2A6-E4DC385A348C@metaskills.net> <4B7C9A0B.1060705@inkworkswell.com> Message-ID: <88F12917-1E33-4B63-BF41-73FA3F5EA6DD@metaskills.net> Yea, that's the one I was thinking about, totally agreed about the -9999em CSS. - Ken On Feb 17, 2010, at 8:47 PM, David McCormick wrote: > > > On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 8:38 PM, Reese wrote: > On 17-Feb-10 19:44, Ken Collins wrote: > My thoughts with a caveat that I seldom think about these details now :) > > 1) I see a lot of classes that should really be IDs. Generally page sections are a one per page thing. Perhaps change all DIV's that use one off class names to IDs instead? > > Well, that's sort of the issue. It's currently a 1-page site but > there has been talk of putting a blog in place, so blog-friendliness > re: the eventual theme was also a consideration. > > > 2) To address the font and semantic happiness for the header would something like this work? > >
>
Refresh Hampton Roads
>
> #branding { / ... your normal CSS here for BG ... / } > #branding h1 { display:none; } > > That would probably work. But then, lots of other things would probably > work too. So what is the best practice? That is the question I asked. > > > If you care about accessibility, you dont want to use display: none. This will hide from screenreaders. You'd be better off using text-indent: -9999em or the like, or even something like "position: absolute; left: -9999em;". > > IMHO, you should always have text where you have an image, whether its a off screen element, or alt / title, etc. > > I saw that Kelley quoted some from a spec somewhere, the issue as I and > Denise see it? The compromise between that verbatim compliance and the > yield to the designer(s) so that the page is true to the vision of the > designer. Which may make the page a bit less accessible for some. > Including some search engines I think. > > My first effort didn't pay much attention to Denise's specs for font > size and face, I had the component widths down but some of the > alignments were off. The 2nd effort was better and I thank Denise for > the feedback she gave me, but here we are at v0.3 and this one last > issue. The only one I'm really kicking up a fuss about. Images or > text, for info that c/should be conveyed as text IMO. Is the message > that the text conveys more important or is the appearance of the font > more important? What is the best practice on this? > > > 3) Since the heading graphic is the
for every page, maybe everything else that is currently and
is really a
? > > Well, like I said: It's a 1-page site right now. There is an intention > or desire to turn it into a blog and who knows where else it might go, > so keeping all of the options open as much as possible, was part of the > unwritten spec. Having an integrated mailing list under the same domain > name (or a subdomain) also shows a bit of professionalism, so I hope > we can work that out equitably. > > > Reese > > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > > _______________________ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kcwalker at inkworkswell.com Wed Feb 17 20:51:51 2010 From: kcwalker at inkworkswell.com (Kelley Walker) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:51:51 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] New Web Page In-Reply-To: <243A63D3-CE0A-4231-879F-9F65C7FF62BB@metaskills.net> References: <424f9b531002031128o2816311q9cc12b722a004d81@mail.gmail.com> <4B6F5EC4.8040704@inkworkswell.com> <4B7C76EB.4000109@inkworkswell.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217191223.05722ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <4D5AC745-01E0-48B8-A2A6-E4DC385A348C@metaskills.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217195527.05139ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <243A63D3-CE0A-4231-879F-9F65C7FF62BB@metaskills.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20100217203139.05a76e50@pop.inkworkswell.com> Nicole Sullivan's Object Oriented CSS presentations. She has a new book coming out as well. She covers why you use classes first, IDs as exception, as well as stuff on extending classes. Sure, extend IDs, but none of us on our UI team could think of a good reason for an ID -- if* we were looking to future proof and reuse as much as possible. "You are taking the route a lot of people take now, which is to sandbox modules as much as possible. It is a better solution than CSS entropy, and it will be easier for you to transition to OO-CSS. I don't use IDs to style anything inside the main content areas. They can be used for linking purposes or JS hooks, but styling based on an ID automatically means that you can never use that style twice in one page. Object reuse makes them performance "freebies", and we like that a lot!" http://www.stubbornella.org/content/2009/02/28/object-oriented-css-grids-on-github/#comment-13012 Kelley At 08:22 PM 2/17/2010, Ken Collins wrote: >I would disagree that ID usage is a throw back to table design for layout. >Maybe since I do use JS hooks ALOT is why I think ID for page structure is >really semantically correct too. I'm open ? but I'd say show me "out of >favor" articles. It sounds like programmer premature optimization to make >top level nodes classes at the start of a template. Can you share CSS use >cases of the "extend" concept? An ID can be extended in the same way a >class can, see below. A class to me means that it will be applied to more >than one element, #header, #footer #content, never had more than one on a >page since 1994 and still counting :) > >#content { width:960px; } >#content .mobile { width:360px; } > >When I see that in CSS, I know I am detailing with a top level page >element. IDs and classes are both important, I really think they should be >used when appropriate and I doubt the new age is really to do away with >them but love to read new topics if that is the case. > > - Ken > > >On Feb 17, 2010, at 8:07 PM, Kelley Walker wrote: > > > using IDs is out of favor. > > > > there's no good reason to ever think that something won't get reused on > a page -- you have to think future proof. in other words, if you can > imagine a wholly different design you should avoid IDs so you could use > it again. e.g, even branding could potentially be re-used - not in it's > current instantiation, but in a future one. for example, what if branding > were to be just a simple text piece, like Refresh Hampton Roads, where > the branding is using a font and colors, no images: Refresh is green, > Hampton Roads is red. and instead of being a fixed design, it's fluid. in > which case branding could certainly be used again in some other module on > the page where you want to repeat the branding. you'd just extend
class="branding"> with another class. > > > > a footer is another good example of something that's often given an ID > but there's no need to. > > > > and, although this is changing, currently best practice is to reserve > IDs for javascript hooks (a la Nicole Sullivan). > > > > it's religion, really, but in my mind, using IDs is a holdover from the > days of table design where people used IDs to mimic structural design and > classes to mimic themes. > > > > We just rewrote pages at work to reflect this approach which all the > UIs collectively agreed on: get rid of all the IDs and use classes only > so we can always reuse them on the page if we need. > > > > kelley > > > > At 07:44 PM 2/17/2010, Ken Collins wrote: > > > >> My thoughts with a caveat that I seldom think about these details now :) > >> > >> 1) I see a lot of classes that should really be IDs. Generally page > sections are a one per page thing. Perhaps change all DIV's that use one > off class names to IDs instead? > >> > >> 2) To address the font and semantic happiness for the header would > something like this work? > >> > >>
> >>
Refresh Hampton Roads
> >>
> >> > >> #branding { /* ... your normal CSS here for BG ... / } > >> #branding h1 { display:none; } > >> > >> 3) Since the heading graphic is the
for every page, maybe > everything else that is currently and
is really a
? > >> > >> > >> - Ken > >> > >> > >> > >> On Feb 17, 2010, at 7:25 PM, Kelley Walker wrote: > >> > >> > I'm kind of attach to accessibility guidelines because I have so > many friends and acquaintances who use them, and because I was a big > cheerleader for them when I worked on an LMS years ago where we had to > hew to accessibility requirements b/c it wa a product for fortune 100s > and the government, all of whom had accessibility requirements. It really > brought me up close and personal with the increasing numbers of people > who are visually disabled. > >> > > >> > According to the W3C: > >> > > >> > "When an appropriate markup language exists, use markup rather than > images to convey information. [Priority 2] > >> > For example, use MathML to mark up mathematical equations, and > style sheets to format text and > control layout. Also, avoid using images to represent text -- use text > and style sheets instead. Refer also to > guideline 6 and > guideline 11. > >> > > Techniques > for checkpoint 3.1 " > >> > > >> > Stop Design's Doug Bowman obsessed about the issue for quite awhile > back in 2003 or 2004? He tried using various techniques such as FIR but > came up against problems. I'd have to dig out my notes from back then. or > google it. :) > >> > > >> > Oh, thanks google: > http://www.alistapart.com/articles/fir/ > > >> > > >> > and thanks again, Cederholm's book has a 2009 version of the debate > where he concludes that the FIR method is still an issue for accessibility: > >> > > http://books.google.com/books?id=Eli4Z2w8zgkC&pg=PA224&lpg=PA224&dq=%22web+standards%22+images+replace+text&source=bl&ots=kLMPeAqkfQ&sig=6prNvksO0Yw0piN6gb9NKkatQfk&hl=en&ei=s4Z8S8TPCJGcsgPe-_W8Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CB8Q6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=%22web%20standards%22%20images%20replace%20text&f=false > >> > > >> > > >> > My preference is to skip FIR and to skip the images for the sake of > accessibility issues. Use text. We have to compromise so much in our day > jobs, why compromise on something that is about our voluntary efforts, > and about making the world a better place? > >> > > >> > Kelley > >> > > >> > At 06:08 PM 2/17/2010, Reese wrote: > >> >> Hello everyone, > >> >> > >> >> I'm finishing up work on the design for the Refresh Hampton Roads page. > >> >> We have a chocolate versus strawberry versus vanilla decision. The site > >> >> is already image heavy with the large branding image so I'm not sure > >> >> that we want even more images. So, in the spirit of Refresh and its > >> >> mission - Web standards - which is preferable: > >> >> > >> >> - use of background images where text could be used for headings > >> >> - use of font-replacement technology that doesn't work in all > >> >> browsers. it will some day, it isn't yet > >> >> - use of text only (the current implementation) > >> >> > >> >> The text in question? > >> >> These header text strings from http://www.inkworkswell.net/refresh-hr/ > >> >> > >> >> "What is refresh | Hampton Roads?" > >> >> "our manifesto" > >> >> "meetings" > >> >> > >> >> The driving questions? What is the best practice? Which would reflect > >> >> best on our commitment to Web standards? > >> >> > >> >> Reese > >> >> > >> >> _______________________ > >> >> Wsuug mailing list > >> >> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > >> >> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > >> > > >> > _ > >> > Wsuug mailing list > >> > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > >> > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > >> > >> _ > >> Wsuug mailing list > >> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > >> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > > > > _ > > Wsuug mailing list > > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > >_ >Wsuug mailing list >Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug From ken at metaskills.net Wed Feb 17 20:53:41 2010 From: ken at metaskills.net (Ken Collins) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:53:41 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] New Web Page In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20100217204738.058488c8@pop.inkworkswell.com> References: <424f9b531002031128o2816311q9cc12b722a004d81@mail.gmail.com> <4B6F5EC4.8040704@inkworkswell.com> <4B7C76EB.4000109@inkworkswell.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217191223.05722ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <4D5AC745-01E0-48B8-A2A6-E4DC385A348C@metaskills.net> <4B7C9A0B.1060705@inkworkswell.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217204738.058488c8@pop.inkworkswell.com> Message-ID: I agree about that, the H1 should be one to a page and should be what that page is about for good semantic/seo too. So in my example it would just be a span, or something if applied. I still think there were way to many h1's on the page where they should have been higher. - Ken On Feb 17, 2010, at 8:51 PM, Kelley Walker wrote: > in SEO circles, it's increasingly the case not to bother with making the heading graphic/branding H1. The idea is that you don't really need to tell a search engine about your branding/logo, etc. You'd rather tell it to emphasize the content since there's plenty else to emphasis, say, the name of a site. That's a newer SEO initiative though. I think I read it when I was doing research for the SEO on our company blog. Within the wordpress community, there's a growing tendency to skip wrapping H1 around the blog title for instance, and place H1 around important content. I'm too lazy to look it up now though. ;) > > At 08:38 PM 2/17/2010, Ken wrote: >>> 3) Since the heading graphic is the
for every page, maybe everything else that is currently and
is really a
? > > _______________________ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug From ken at metaskills.net Wed Feb 17 21:15:56 2010 From: ken at metaskills.net (Ken Collins) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:15:56 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] New Web Page In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20100217203139.05a76e50@pop.inkworkswell.com> References: <424f9b531002031128o2816311q9cc12b722a004d81@mail.gmail.com> <4B6F5EC4.8040704@inkworkswell.com> <4B7C76EB.4000109@inkworkswell.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217191223.05722ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <4D5AC745-01E0-48B8-A2A6-E4DC385A348C@metaskills.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217195527.05139ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <243A63D3-CE0A-4231-879F-9F65C7FF62BB@metaskills.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217203139.05a76e50@pop.inkworkswell.com> Message-ID: <8C35EEE5-F4F8-4CF4-954B-5F2304D2EE3D@metaskills.net> Good read, and I think my point is valid too and inline to what she is saying. 1) "Avoid IDs to style inside the main content area.". Yup, I am talking strictly "about" the content structure. For example .branding is not a reusable object from a design point of view, the way you have it written, sure, technically but I don't think you are going to use that page structure with it's width/height again. 2) "... but styling based on an ID automatically means that you can never use that style twice in one page...". Yup, totally agree, and I think that's exactly why you want to use ID's for page/template structure. You want to imply and start off with the notion that the CSS you are writing for page structure is singular CSS and not an object. I totally agree with her and just think that taking her message as meaning not to write IDs ever is the wrong one. For instance if there was a #branding it does not mean you could not use a CSS object/class with it. I just still think page structure should be ID driven, MHO. - Thanks for sharing! Ken On Feb 17, 2010, at 8:51 PM, Kelley Walker wrote: > Nicole Sullivan's Object Oriented CSS presentations. She has a new book coming out as well. She covers why you use classes first, IDs as exception, as well as stuff on extending classes. Sure, extend IDs, but none of us on our UI team could think of a good reason for an ID -- if* we were looking to future proof and reuse as much as possible. > > "You are taking the route a lot of people take now, which is to sandbox modules as much as possible. It is a better solution than CSS entropy, and it will be easier for you to transition to OO-CSS. I don't use IDs to style anything inside the main content areas. They can be used for linking purposes or JS hooks, but styling based on an ID automatically means that you can never use that style twice in one page. Object reuse makes them performance "freebies", and we like that a lot!" > > http://www.stubbornella.org/content/2009/02/28/object-oriented-css-grids-on-github/#comment-13012 > > > Kelley > From ken at metaskills.net Wed Feb 17 21:16:13 2010 From: ken at metaskills.net (Ken Collins) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:16:13 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] New Web Page In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20100217203139.05a76e50@pop.inkworkswell.com> References: <424f9b531002031128o2816311q9cc12b722a004d81@mail.gmail.com> <4B6F5EC4.8040704@inkworkswell.com> <4B7C76EB.4000109@inkworkswell.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217191223.05722ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <4D5AC745-01E0-48B8-A2A6-E4DC385A348C@metaskills.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217195527.05139ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <243A63D3-CE0A-4231-879F-9F65C7FF62BB@metaskills.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217203139.05a76e50@pop.inkworkswell.com> Message-ID: <695888A2-941B-41DD-920F-3B2D7F315897@metaskills.net> BTW, good work on the site too! Congrats - Ken On Feb 17, 2010, at 8:51 PM, Kelley Walker wrote: > Nicole Sullivan's Object Oriented CSS presentations. She has a new book coming out as well. She covers why you use classes first, IDs as exception, as well as stuff on extending classes. Sure, extend IDs, but none of us on our UI team could think of a good reason for an ID -- if we were looking to future proof and reuse as much as possible. > > "You are taking the route a lot of people take now, which is to sandbox modules as much as possible. It is a better solution than CSS entropy, and it will be easier for you to transition to OO-CSS. I don't use IDs to style anything inside the main content areas. They can be used for linking purposes or JS hooks, but styling based on an ID automatically means that you can never use that style twice in one page. Object reuse makes them performance "freebies", and we like that a lot!" > > http://www.stubbornella.org/content/2009/02/28/object-oriented-css-grids-on-github/#comment-13012 > > > Kelley > > > > At 08:22 PM 2/17/2010, Ken Collins wrote: > >> I would disagree that ID usage is a throw back to table design for layout. Maybe since I do use JS hooks ALOT is why I think ID for page structure is really semantically correct too. I'm open but I'd say show me "out of favor" articles. It sounds like programmer premature optimization to make top level nodes classes at the start of a template. Can you share CSS use cases of the "extend" concept? An ID can be extended in the same way a class can, see below. A class to me means that it will be applied to more than one element, #header, #footer #content, never had more than one on a page since 1994 and still counting :) >> >> #content { width:960px; } >> #content .mobile { width:360px; } >> >> When I see that in CSS, I know I am detailing with a top level page element. IDs and classes are both important, I really think they should be used when appropriate and I doubt the new age is really to do away with them but love to read new topics if that is the case. >> >> - Ken >> >> >> On Feb 17, 2010, at 8:07 PM, Kelley Walker wrote: >> >> > using IDs is out of favor. >> > >> > there's no good reason to ever think that something won't get reused on a page -- you have to think future proof. in other words, if you can imagine a wholly different design you should avoid IDs so you could use it again. e.g, even branding could potentially be re-used - not in it's current instantiation, but in a future one. for example, what if branding were to be just a simple text piece, like Refresh Hampton Roads, where the branding is using a font and colors, no images: Refresh is green, Hampton Roads is red. and instead of being a fixed design, it's fluid. in which case branding could certainly be used again in some other module on the page where you want to repeat the branding. you'd just extend
with another class. >> > >> > a footer is another good example of something that's often given an ID but there's no need to. >> > >> > and, although this is changing, currently best practice is to reserve IDs for javascript hooks (a la Nicole Sullivan). >> > >> > it's religion, really, but in my mind, using IDs is a holdover from the days of table design where people used IDs to mimic structural design and classes to mimic themes. >> > >> > We just rewrote pages at work to reflect this approach which all the UIs collectively agreed on: get rid of all the IDs and use classes only so we can always reuse them on the page if we need. >> > >> > kelley >> > >> > At 07:44 PM 2/17/2010, Ken Collins wrote: >> > >> >> My thoughts with a caveat that I seldom think about these details now :) >> >> >> >> 1) I see a lot of classes that should really be IDs. Generally page sections are a one per page thing. Perhaps change all DIV's that use one off class names to IDs instead? >> >> >> >> 2) To address the font and semantic happiness for the header would something like this work? >> >> >> >>
>> >>
Refresh Hampton Roads
>> >>
>> >> >> >> #branding { /* ... your normal CSS here for BG ... / } >> >> #branding h1 { display:none; } >> >> >> >> 3) Since the heading graphic is the
for every page, maybe everything else that is currently and
is really a
? >> >> >> >> >> >> - Ken >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Feb 17, 2010, at 7:25 PM, Kelley Walker wrote: >> >> >> >> > I'm kind of attach to accessibility guidelines because I have so many friends and acquaintances who use them, and because I was a big cheerleader for them when I worked on an LMS years ago where we had to hew to accessibility requirements b/c it wa a product for fortune 100s and the government, all of whom had accessibility requirements. It really brought me up close and personal with the increasing numbers of people who are visually disabled. >> >> > >> >> > According to the W3C: >> >> > >> >> > "When an appropriate markup language exists, use markup rather than images to convey information. [Priority 2] >> >> > For example, use MathML to mark up mathematical equations, and style sheets to format text and control layout. Also, avoid using images to represent text -- use text and style sheets instead. Refer also to guideline 6 and guideline 11. >> >> > Techniques for checkpoint 3.1 " >> >> > >> >> > Stop Design's Doug Bowman obsessed about the issue for quite awhile back in 2003 or 2004? He tried using various techniques such as FIR but came up against problems. I'd have to dig out my notes from back then. or google it. :) >> >> > >> >> > Oh, thanks google: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/fir/ >> >> > >> >> > and thanks again, Cederholm's book has a 2009 version of the debate where he concludes that the FIR method is still an issue for accessibility: >> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=Eli4Z2w8zgkC&pg=PA224&lpg=PA224&dq=%22web+standards%22+images+replace+text&source=bl&ots=kLMPeAqkfQ&sig=6prNvksO0Yw0piN6gb9NKkatQfk&hl=en&ei=s4Z8S8TPCJGcsgPe-_W8Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CB8Q6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=%22web%20standards%22%20images%20replace%20text&f=false >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > My preference is to skip FIR and to skip the images for the sake of accessibility issues. Use text. We have to compromise so much in our day jobs, why compromise on something that is about our voluntary efforts, and about making the world a better place? >> >> > >> >> > Kelley >> >> > >> >> > At 06:08 PM 2/17/2010, Reese wrote: >> >> >> Hello everyone, >> >> >> >> >> >> I'm finishing up work on the design for the Refresh Hampton Roads page. >> >> >> We have a chocolate versus strawberry versus vanilla decision. The site >> >> >> is already image heavy with the large branding image so I'm not sure >> >> >> that we want even more images. So, in the spirit of Refresh and its >> >> >> mission - Web standards - which is preferable: >> >> >> >> >> >> - use of background images where text could be used for headings >> >> >> - use of font-replacement technology that doesn't work in all >> >> >> browsers. it will some day, it isn't yet >> >> >> - use of text only (the current implementation) >> >> >> >> >> >> The text in question? >> >> >> These header text strings from http://www.inkworkswell.net/refresh-hr/ >> >> >> >> >> >> "What is refresh | Hampton Roads?" >> >> >> "our manifesto" >> >> >> "meetings" >> >> >> >> >> >> The driving questions? What is the best practice? Which would reflect >> >> >> best on our commitment to Web standards? >> >> >> >> >> >> Reese >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________ >> >> >> Wsuug mailing list >> >> >> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >> >> >> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >> >> > >> >> > _ >> >> > Wsuug mailing list >> >> > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >> >> > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >> >> >> >> _ >> >> Wsuug mailing list >> >> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >> >> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >> > >> > _ >> > Wsuug mailing list >> > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >> > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >> >> _ >> Wsuug mailing list >> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug From howell.r at inkworkswell.com Wed Feb 17 21:19:47 2010 From: howell.r at inkworkswell.com (Reese) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:19:47 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] New Web Page In-Reply-To: References: <424f9b531002031128o2816311q9cc12b722a004d81@mail.gmail.com> <4B6F5EC4.8040704@inkworkswell.com> <4B7C76EB.4000109@inkworkswell.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217191223.05722ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <4D5AC745-01E0-48B8-A2A6-E4DC385A348C@metaskills.net> <4B7C9A0B.1060705@inkworkswell.com> Message-ID: <4B7CA3C3.20802@inkworkswell.com> On 17-Feb-10 20:47, David McCormick wrote: > If you care about accessibility, you dont want to use display: none. This > will hide from screenreaders. You'd be better off using text-indent: -9999em > or the like, or even something like "position: absolute; left: -9999em;". I hear you, but it means a default ugly border around the form - unless I can set that border to a color that blends with the background. I'll look into that. > IMHO, you should always have text where you have an image, whether its a off > screen element, or alt / title, etc. Busted, I haven't filled in all of the title tags. All of the images are background images except the "submit" button on the form, so... Reese From young.zach at gmail.com Wed Feb 17 21:25:44 2010 From: young.zach at gmail.com (Zach Young) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:25:44 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] New Web Page In-Reply-To: <8C35EEE5-F4F8-4CF4-954B-5F2304D2EE3D@metaskills.net> References: <424f9b531002031128o2816311q9cc12b722a004d81@mail.gmail.com> <4B6F5EC4.8040704@inkworkswell.com> <4B7C76EB.4000109@inkworkswell.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217191223.05722ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <4D5AC745-01E0-48B8-A2A6-E4DC385A348C@metaskills.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217195527.05139ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <243A63D3-CE0A-4231-879F-9F65C7FF62BB@metaskills.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217203139.05a76e50@pop.inkworkswell.com> <8C35EEE5-F4F8-4CF4-954B-5F2304D2EE3D@metaskills.net> Message-ID: <424f9b531002171825h29f25ad4s3c429067e4ff0ffe@mail.gmail.com> > Ken wrote: > I totally agree with her and just think that taking her message as meaning not to write IDs ever is the wrong one. For instance if there was a #branding it does not mean you could not use a CSS object/class with it. I just still think page structure should be ID driven, MHO. > I tend to agree. There's also just a lot of good semanticness that can be had with ids (for example the branding id.) Makes more sense semantically for that to be an id than a class. Anyway, just my 2 cents. I know its out of fashion, but I'm not convinced that its bad to use a fair amount of ids (regardless of whether you're styling them based on id or not.) Personally I still use ids for my page structure (and semantic meaning) and classes for everything else. Zach From qwerty823 at gmail.com Wed Feb 17 21:30:49 2010 From: qwerty823 at gmail.com (David McCormick) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:30:49 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] New Web Page In-Reply-To: <4B7CA3C3.20802@inkworkswell.com> References: <424f9b531002031128o2816311q9cc12b722a004d81@mail.gmail.com> <4B6F5EC4.8040704@inkworkswell.com> <4B7C76EB.4000109@inkworkswell.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217191223.05722ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <4D5AC745-01E0-48B8-A2A6-E4DC385A348C@metaskills.net> <4B7C9A0B.1060705@inkworkswell.com> <4B7CA3C3.20802@inkworkswell.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 9:19 PM, Reese wrote: > On 17-Feb-10 20:47, David McCormick wrote: > > If you care about accessibility, you dont want to use display: none. This >> will hide from screenreaders. You'd be better off using text-indent: >> -9999em >> or the like, or even something like "position: absolute; left: -9999em;". >> > > I hear you, but it means a default ugly border around the form - unless > I can set that border to a color that blends with the background. I'll > look into that. > > I wasn't looking at the form, mainly the
scenario mentioned in the thread. > > IMHO, you should always have text where you have an image, whether its a >> off >> screen element, or alt / title, etc. >> > > Busted, I haven't filled in all of the title tags. All of the images > are background images except the "submit" button on the form, so... > > Background images should only be presentational, and should never convey content in any way. If they do, users with images off, css disabled, or using "high contrast" mode won't see them. > > Reese > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From howell.r at inkworkswell.com Wed Feb 17 21:49:19 2010 From: howell.r at inkworkswell.com (Reese) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:49:19 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] New Web Page In-Reply-To: References: <424f9b531002031128o2816311q9cc12b722a004d81@mail.gmail.com> <4B6F5EC4.8040704@inkworkswell.com> <4B7C76EB.4000109@inkworkswell.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217191223.05722ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <4D5AC745-01E0-48B8-A2A6-E4DC385A348C@metaskills.net> <4B7C9A0B.1060705@inkworkswell.com> <4B7CA3C3.20802@inkworkswell.com> Message-ID: <4B7CAAAF.7000601@inkworkswell.com> On 17-Feb-10 21:30, David McCormick wrote: >> If you care about accessibility, you dont want to use display: none. This >>> will hide from screenreaders. You'd be better off using text-indent: >>> -9999em >>> or the like, or even something like "position: absolute; left: -9999em;". >>> >> I hear you, but it means a default ugly border around the form - unless >> I can set that border to a color that blends with the background. I'll >> look into that. >> > I wasn't looking at the form, mainly the
scenario mentioned in the > thread. Oh. I'm not using display:none anywhere except on the form, so I misunderstood. I'll still look at setting the border color to match the background. > Background images should only be presentational, and should never convey > content in any way. If they do, users with images off, css disabled, or > using "high contrast" mode won't see them. I'm inclined to agree, which is why the "submit" button is the only foreground image. I did have a separate background image for the "refresh HAMPTON ROADS" text at top-left, but dropped that in the belief it was not semantic. I could go either way on putting a brand- related link in the foreground, I guess that can be a second question to the whole list. Detach the "refresh HAMPTON ROADS" text and make it a foreground link? Reese From mail at ryanbrunsvold.com Wed Feb 17 22:02:19 2010 From: mail at ryanbrunsvold.com (Ryan Brunsvold) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 22:02:19 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] New Web Page In-Reply-To: <4B7CAAAF.7000601@inkworkswell.com> References: <424f9b531002031128o2816311q9cc12b722a004d81@mail.gmail.com> <4B6F5EC4.8040704@inkworkswell.com> <4B7C76EB.4000109@inkworkswell.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217191223.05722ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <4D5AC745-01E0-48B8-A2A6-E4DC385A348C@metaskills.net> <4B7C9A0B.1060705@inkworkswell.com> <4B7CA3C3.20802@inkworkswell.com> <4B7CAAAF.7000601@inkworkswell.com> Message-ID: <1499abcc1002171902m434ba198nb3ead16a3a45b9ab@mail.gmail.com> Some good points going on here, but I feel we would be remiss if we didn't begin implementing HTML5, CSS3, and Microformats on the Refresh site. HTML5 offers a richer, more semantic environment that could resolve some of the discussion involving division structure fairly easy (just to name one example). On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 9:49 PM, Reese wrote: > On 17-Feb-10 21:30, David McCormick wrote: > > If you care about accessibility, you dont want to use display: none. This >>> >>>> will hide from screenreaders. You'd be better off using text-indent: >>>> -9999em >>>> or the like, or even something like "position: absolute; left: >>>> -9999em;". >>>> >>>> I hear you, but it means a default ugly border around the form - unless >>> I can set that border to a color that blends with the background. I'll >>> look into that. >>> >>> I wasn't looking at the form, mainly the
scenario mentioned in the >> thread. >> > > Oh. I'm not using display:none anywhere except on the form, so I > misunderstood. I'll still look at setting the border color to match > the background. > > > Background images should only be presentational, and should never convey >> content in any way. If they do, users with images off, css disabled, or >> using "high contrast" mode won't see them. >> > > I'm inclined to agree, which is why the "submit" button is the only > foreground image. I did have a separate background image for the > "refresh HAMPTON ROADS" text at top-left, but dropped that in the > belief it was not semantic. I could go either way on putting a brand- > related link in the foreground, I guess that can be a second question > to the whole list. Detach the "refresh HAMPTON ROADS" text and make > it a foreground link? > > > Reese > > _______________________ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kcwalker at inkworkswell.com Thu Feb 18 00:45:52 2010 From: kcwalker at inkworkswell.com (Kelley Walker) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 00:45:52 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] microformats: boon or bane Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20100218004259.0574b150@pop.inkworkswell.com> Jeff Atwood at Coding Horror thinks they're (mostly) a bane: http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2009/12/microformats-boon-or-bane.html Kelley From kcwalker at inkworkswell.com Thu Feb 18 01:20:25 2010 From: kcwalker at inkworkswell.com (Kelley Walker) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 01:20:25 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] New Web Page In-Reply-To: <424f9b531002171825h29f25ad4s3c429067e4ff0ffe@mail.gmail.co m> References: <424f9b531002031128o2816311q9cc12b722a004d81@mail.gmail.com> <4B6F5EC4.8040704@inkworkswell.com> <4B7C76EB.4000109@inkworkswell.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217191223.05722ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <4D5AC745-01E0-48B8-A2A6-E4DC385A348C@metaskills.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217195527.05139ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <243A63D3-CE0A-4231-879F-9F65C7FF62BB@metaskills.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217203139.05a76e50@pop.inkworkswell.com> <8C35EEE5-F4F8-4CF4-954B-5F2304D2EE3D@metaskills.net> <424f9b531002171825h29f25ad4s3c429067e4ff0ffe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20100217221854.050a0b88@pop.inkworkswell.com> ooooo. that's a new one. where can i read up on the semanticness conveyed by class v id? i was unaware that, by themselves, the class and id conveyed semantic meaning as* class versus id. i always thought it was the naming that conveyed semantic meaning. thus, andy clarke argued for the use of "branding" to convey the meaning of what people often call the "header" or "masthead". Both header and masthead, Clarke argued, conveyed locational or positional information. heading or masthead might not make sense if you had a page where there was no header and instead a band down the side of the page or the middle contained the branding information. html5 decided to go with
. so, i've have been using a content-based workflow where i refuse to look at the design and only go by the _content_. i would have only taken the words and functiongs on the refresh mock, getting rid of everything else and marking it up on the basis of content only. that's the method advocated by clarke and by progressive enhancement enthusiasts. ken: here's is Nicole's layout: http://wiki.github.com/stubbornella/oocss/template notice it uses no IDs. it's a religion thing. :) i propose that the first extension of the refresh pages be called Religion. Kelley At 09:25 PM 2/17/2010, Zach Young wrote: > > Ken wrote: > > I totally agree with her and just think that taking her message as > meaning not to write IDs ever is the wrong one. For instance if there was > a #branding it does not mean you could not use a CSS object/class with > it. I just still think page structure should be ID driven, MHO. > > > >I tend to agree. There's also just a lot of good semanticness that can >be had with ids (for example the branding id.) Makes more sense >semantically for that to be an id than a class. Anyway, just my 2 >cents. > >I know its out of fashion, but I'm not convinced that its bad to use a >fair amount of ids (regardless of whether you're styling them based on >id or not.) Personally I still use ids for my page structure (and >semantic meaning) and classes for everything else. > >Zach >_______________________________________________ >Wsuug mailing list >Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug From mail at ryanbrunsvold.com Thu Feb 18 07:47:31 2010 From: mail at ryanbrunsvold.com (Ryan Brunsvold) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 07:47:31 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] New Web Page In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20100217221854.050a0b88@pop.inkworkswell.com> References: <424f9b531002031128o2816311q9cc12b722a004d81@mail.gmail.com> <4B7C76EB.4000109@inkworkswell.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217191223.05722ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <4D5AC745-01E0-48B8-A2A6-E4DC385A348C@metaskills.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217195527.05139ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <243A63D3-CE0A-4231-879F-9F65C7FF62BB@metaskills.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217203139.05a76e50@pop.inkworkswell.com> <8C35EEE5-F4F8-4CF4-954B-5F2304D2EE3D@metaskills.net> <424f9b531002171825h29f25ad4s3c429067e4ff0ffe@mail.gmail.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217221854.050a0b88@pop.inkworkswell.com> Message-ID: <1499abcc1002180447n248892ek2a80f3c42eefa031@mail.gmail.com> Two of the better (or at least better organized) resources for HTML5 and CSS3 that I've found is the HTML5 Doctor (http://html5doctor.com/) and CSS3 Info (http://www.css3.info/). As far as Microformats are concerned, I have to disagree with most of Atwood's points. I'd be happy to go into the specifics of my argument if so desired, but for now I'd prefer we use them for a few simple reasons. Namely, that Microformats are... 1. easy to learn 2. easy to implement 3. yet another technology that helps us fulfill the original charter of a Refresh Chapter On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 1:20 AM, Kelley Walker wrote: > ooooo. that's a new one. where can i read up on the semanticness conveyed > by class v id? i was unaware that, by themselves, the class and id conveyed > semantic meaning as class versus id. > > i always thought it was the naming that conveyed semantic meaning. thus, > andy clarke argued for the use of "branding" to convey the meaning of what > people often call the "header" or "masthead". Both header and masthead, > Clarke argued, conveyed locational or positional information. heading or > masthead might not make sense if you had a page where there was no header > and instead a band down the side of the page or the middle contained the > branding information. > > html5 decided to go with
. > > so, i've have been using a content-based workflow where i refuse to look at > the design and only go by the _content_. i would have only taken the words > and functiongs on the refresh mock, getting rid of everything else and > marking it up on the basis of content only. that's the method advocated by > clarke and by progressive enhancement enthusiasts. > > > > ken: here's is Nicole's layout: > http://wiki.github.com/stubbornella/oocss/template > > notice it uses no IDs. > > it's a religion thing. :) > > i propose that the first extension of the refresh pages be called Religion. > > > > Kelley > > > At 09:25 PM 2/17/2010, Zach Young wrote: > >> > Ken wrote: >> > I totally agree with her and just think that taking her message as >> meaning not to write IDs ever is the wrong one. For instance if there was a >> #branding it does not mean you could not use a CSS object/class with it. I >> just still think page structure should be ID driven, MHO. >> > >> >> I tend to agree. There's also just a lot of good semanticness that can >> be had with ids (for example the branding id.) Makes more sense >> semantically for that to be an id than a class. Anyway, just my 2 >> cents. >> >> I know its out of fashion, but I'm not convinced that its bad to use a >> fair amount of ids (regardless of whether you're styling them based on >> id or not.) Personally I still use ids for my page structure (and >> semantic meaning) and classes for everything else. >> >> Zach >> _ >> Wsuug mailing list >> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >> > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kcwalker at inkworkswell.com Thu Feb 18 07:59:42 2010 From: kcwalker at inkworkswell.com (Kelley Walker) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 07:59:42 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] New Web Page In-Reply-To: <1499abcc1002180447n248892ek2a80f3c42eefa031@mail.gmail.com > References: <424f9b531002031128o2816311q9cc12b722a004d81@mail.gmail.com> <4B7C76EB.4000109@inkworkswell.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217191223.05722ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <4D5AC745-01E0-48B8-A2A6-E4DC385A348C@metaskills.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217195527.05139ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <243A63D3-CE0A-4231-879F-9F65C7FF62BB@metaskills.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217203139.05a76e50@pop.inkworkswell.com> <8C35EEE5-F4F8-4CF4-954B-5F2304D2EE3D@metaskills.net> <424f9b531002171825h29f25ad4s3c429067e4ff0ffe@mail.gmail.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217221854.050a0b88@pop.inkworkswell.com> <1499abcc1002180447n248892ek2a80f3c42eefa031@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20100218075802.058488c8@pop.inkworkswell.com> so how does naming something a class make is have meaning in a way that's different from an id? i get why the name of the class or id, matters, but not why class and id are different in terms of meaning. specificity, yes. as for microformats, since I'm a big promoter of microformats, I sent that along for irony. :) k At 07:47 AM 2/18/2010, Ryan Brunsvold wrote: >Two of the better (or at least better organized) resources for HTML5 and >CSS3 that I've found is the HTML5 Doctor >(http://html5doctor.com/) and CSS3 Info >(http://www.css3.info/). As far as Microformats are >concerned, I have to disagree with most of Atwood's points. I'd be happy >to go into the specifics of my argument if so desired, but for now I'd >prefer we use them for a few simple reasons. Namely, that Microformats are... > > * easy to learn > * easy to implement > * yet another technology that helps us fulfill the original charter of > a Refresh Chapter > > > >On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 1:20 AM, Kelley Walker ><kcwalker at inkworkswell.com> wrote: >ooooo. that's a new one. where can i read up on the semanticness conveyed >by class v id? i was unaware that, by themselves, the class and id >conveyed semantic meaning as class versus id. > >i always thought it was the naming that conveyed semantic meaning. thus, >andy clarke argued for the use of "branding" to convey the meaning of what >people often call the "header" or "masthead". Both header and masthead, >Clarke argued, conveyed locational or positional information. heading or >masthead might not make sense if you had a page where there was no header >and instead a band down the side of the page or the middle contained the >branding information. > >html5 decided to go with
. > >so, i've have been using a content-based workflow where i refuse to look >at the design and only go by the _content_. i would have only taken the >words and functiongs on the refresh mock, getting rid of everything else >and marking it up on the basis of content only. that's the method >advocated by clarke and by progressive enhancement enthusiasts. > > > >ken: here's is Nicole's layout: >http://wiki.github.com/stubbornella/oocss/template > >notice it uses no IDs. > >it's a religion thing. :) > >i propose that the first extension of the refresh pages be called Religion. > > > >Kelley > > >At 09:25 PM 2/17/2010, Zach Young wrote: > > Ken wrote: > > I totally agree with her and just think that taking her message as > meaning not to write IDs ever is the wrong one. For instance if there was > a #branding it does not mean you could not use a CSS object/class with > it. I just still think page structure should be ID driven, MHO. > > > >I tend to agree. There's also just a lot of good semanticness that can >be had with ids (for example the branding id.) Makes more sense >semantically for that to be an id than a class. Anyway, just my 2 >cents. > >I know its out of fashion, but I'm not convinced that its bad to use a >fair amount of ids (regardless of whether you're styling them based on >id or not.) Personally I still use ids for my page structure (and >semantic meaning) and classes for everything else. > >Zach >_______________________ >Wsuug mailing list >Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > > >_ >Wsuug mailing list >Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > > >_ >Wsuug mailing list >Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug From chrismjones at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 08:39:05 2010 From: chrismjones at gmail.com (Christopher Jones) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 08:39:05 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] microformats: boon or bane In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20100218004259.0574b150@pop.inkworkswell.com> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20100218004259.0574b150@pop.inkworkswell.com> Message-ID: Even with his complaints, he says that he will still use them, if for no other reason than they are easy. That google uses them in search results is enough for me. "Now, all that said, I still think microformats are useful and worth implementing, if for no other reason than it's too easy not to." ~ Christopher On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 12:45 AM, Kelley Walker wrote: > Jeff Atwood at Coding Horror thinks they're (mostly) a bane: > http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2009/12/microformats-boon-or-bane.html > > > Kelley > > _______________________ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mail at ryanbrunsvold.com Thu Feb 18 08:43:18 2010 From: mail at ryanbrunsvold.com (Ryan Brunsvold) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 08:43:18 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] New Web Page In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20100218075802.058488c8@pop.inkworkswell.com> References: <424f9b531002031128o2816311q9cc12b722a004d81@mail.gmail.com> <4D5AC745-01E0-48B8-A2A6-E4DC385A348C@metaskills.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217195527.05139ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <243A63D3-CE0A-4231-879F-9F65C7FF62BB@metaskills.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217203139.05a76e50@pop.inkworkswell.com> <8C35EEE5-F4F8-4CF4-954B-5F2304D2EE3D@metaskills.net> <424f9b531002171825h29f25ad4s3c429067e4ff0ffe@mail.gmail.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217221854.050a0b88@pop.inkworkswell.com> <1499abcc1002180447n248892ek2a80f3c42eefa031@mail.gmail.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100218075802.058488c8@pop.inkworkswell.com> Message-ID: <1499abcc1002180543k6ae625dct225314bedf4e48bf@mail.gmail.com> Excellent observation K. When I mentioned that HTML5 offers more semantic richness that was previously attainable, I was referring to the potential HTML5 holds for extensibility, both forwards and backwards. Last year John Allsopp wrote an excellent article on the topic and explains it far more succinctly than I ever could. ( http://www.alistapart.com/articles/semanticsinhtml5) Irony aside, thanks for mentioning that Coding Horror article. I think he's right in a few ways, but most of his observations reminded me of the dismissive rhetoric that was popping up when the community moved from tables to CSS. On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 7:59 AM, Kelley Walker wrote: > so how does naming something a class make is have meaning in a way that's > different from an id? i get why the name of the class or id, matters, but > not why class and id are different in terms of meaning. specificity, yes. > > as for microformats, since I'm a big promoter of microformats, I sent that > along for irony. :) > > k > > At 07:47 AM 2/18/2010, Ryan Brunsvold wrote: > >> Two of the better (or at least better organized) resources for HTML5 and >> CSS3 that I've found is the HTML5 Doctor ( >> http://html5doctor.com/) and CSS3 Info ( >> http://www.css3.info/). As far as Microformats are concerned, I have to >> disagree with most of Atwood's points. I'd be happy to go into the specifics >> of my argument if so desired, but for now I'd prefer we use them for a few >> simple reasons. Namely, that Microformats are... >> >> >> * easy to learn >> * easy to implement >> * yet another technology that helps us fulfill the original charter of a >> Refresh Chapter >> >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 1:20 AM, Kelley Walker <> kcwalker at inkworkswell.com>kcwalker at inkworkswell.com> wrote: >> ooooo. that's a new one. where can i read up on the semanticness conveyed >> by class v id? i was unaware that, by themselves, the class and id conveyed >> semantic meaning as class versus id. >> >> i always thought it was the naming that conveyed semantic meaning. thus, >> andy clarke argued for the use of "branding" to convey the meaning of what >> people often call the "header" or "masthead". Both header and masthead, >> Clarke argued, conveyed locational or positional information. heading or >> masthead might not make sense if you had a page where there was no header >> and instead a band down the side of the page or the middle contained the >> branding information. >> >> html5 decided to go with
. >> >> so, i've have been using a content-based workflow where i refuse to look >> at the design and only go by the _content_. i would have only taken the >> words and functiongs on the refresh mock, getting rid of everything else and >> marking it up on the basis of content only. that's the method advocated by >> clarke and by progressive enhancement enthusiasts. >> >> >> >> ken: here's is Nicole's layout: < >> http://wiki.github.com/stubbornella/oocss/template> >> http://wiki.github.com/stubbornella/oocss/template >> >> >> notice it uses no IDs. >> >> it's a religion thing. :) >> >> i propose that the first extension of the refresh pages be called >> Religion. >> >> >> >> Kelley >> >> >> At 09:25 PM 2/17/2010, Zach Young wrote: >> > Ken wrote: >> > I totally agree with her and just think that taking her message as >> meaning not to write IDs ever is the wrong one. For instance if there was a >> #branding it does not mean you could not use a CSS object/class with it. I >> just still think page structure should be ID driven, MHO. >> > >> >> I tend to agree. There's also just a lot of good semanticness that can >> be had with ids (for example the branding id.) Makes more sense >> semantically for that to be an id than a class. Anyway, just my 2 >> cents. >> >> I know its out of fashion, but I'm not convinced that its bad to use a >> fair amount of ids (regardless of whether you're styling them based on >> id or not.) Personally I still use ids for my page structure (and >> semantic meaning) and classes for everything else. >> >> Zach >> _______________________ >> Wsuug mailing list >> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >> >> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >> >> >> _ >> Wsuug mailing list >> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >> >> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >> >> >> _ >> Wsuug mailing list >> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >> > > _______________________ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mail at ryanbrunsvold.com Thu Feb 18 08:46:13 2010 From: mail at ryanbrunsvold.com (Ryan Brunsvold) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 08:46:13 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] New Web Page In-Reply-To: <1499abcc1002180543k6ae625dct225314bedf4e48bf@mail.gmail.com> References: <424f9b531002031128o2816311q9cc12b722a004d81@mail.gmail.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217195527.05139ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <243A63D3-CE0A-4231-879F-9F65C7FF62BB@metaskills.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217203139.05a76e50@pop.inkworkswell.com> <8C35EEE5-F4F8-4CF4-954B-5F2304D2EE3D@metaskills.net> <424f9b531002171825h29f25ad4s3c429067e4ff0ffe@mail.gmail.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217221854.050a0b88@pop.inkworkswell.com> <1499abcc1002180447n248892ek2a80f3c42eefa031@mail.gmail.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100218075802.058488c8@pop.inkworkswell.com> <1499abcc1002180543k6ae625dct225314bedf4e48bf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1499abcc1002180546i2dc09888k2786d69c7c09b2f3@mail.gmail.com> Sorry, forgot to include another excellent link for those of you who are interested in HTML5, yet don't want to read a mind-numbingly boring spec: http://diveintohtml5.org/semantics.html On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 8:43 AM, Ryan Brunsvold wrote: > Excellent observation K. When I mentioned that HTML5 offers more semantic > richness that was previously attainable, I was referring to the potential > HTML5 holds for extensibility, both forwards and backwards. Last year John > Allsopp wrote an excellent article on the topic and explains it far more > succinctly than I ever could. ( > http://www.alistapart.com/articles/semanticsinhtml5) > > Irony aside, thanks for mentioning that Coding Horror article. I think he's > right in a few ways, but most of his observations reminded me of the > dismissive rhetoric that was popping up when the community moved from tables > to CSS. > > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 7:59 AM, Kelley Walker wrote: > >> so how does naming something a class make is have meaning in a way that's >> different from an id? i get why the name of the class or id, matters, but >> not why class and id are different in terms of meaning. specificity, yes. >> >> as for microformats, since I'm a big promoter of microformats, I sent that >> along for irony. :) >> >> k >> >> At 07:47 AM 2/18/2010, Ryan Brunsvold wrote: >> >>> Two of the better (or at least better organized) resources for HTML5 and >>> CSS3 that I've found is the HTML5 Doctor ( >>> http://html5doctor.com/) and CSS3 Info ( >>> http://www.css3.info/). As far as Microformats are concerned, I have to >>> disagree with most of Atwood's points. I'd be happy to go into the specifics >>> of my argument if so desired, but for now I'd prefer we use them for a few >>> simple reasons. Namely, that Microformats are... >>> >>> >>> * easy to learn >>> * easy to implement >>> * yet another technology that helps us fulfill the original charter of >>> a Refresh Chapter >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 1:20 AM, Kelley Walker <>> kcwalker at inkworkswell.com>kcwalker at inkworkswell.com> wrote: >>> ooooo. that's a new one. where can i read up on the semanticness conveyed >>> by class v id? i was unaware that, by themselves, the class and id conveyed >>> semantic meaning as class versus id. >>> >>> i always thought it was the naming that conveyed semantic meaning. thus, >>> andy clarke argued for the use of "branding" to convey the meaning of what >>> people often call the "header" or "masthead". Both header and masthead, >>> Clarke argued, conveyed locational or positional information. heading or >>> masthead might not make sense if you had a page where there was no header >>> and instead a band down the side of the page or the middle contained the >>> branding information. >>> >>> html5 decided to go with
. >>> >>> so, i've have been using a content-based workflow where i refuse to look >>> at the design and only go by the _content_. i would have only taken the >>> words and functiongs on the refresh mock, getting rid of everything else and >>> marking it up on the basis of content only. that's the method advocated by >>> clarke and by progressive enhancement enthusiasts. >>> >>> >>> >>> ken: here's is Nicole's layout: < >>> http://wiki.github.com/stubbornella/oocss/template> >>> http://wiki.github.com/stubbornella/oocss/template >>> >>> >>> notice it uses no IDs. >>> >>> it's a religion thing. :) >>> >>> i propose that the first extension of the refresh pages be called >>> Religion. >>> >>> >>> >>> Kelley >>> >>> >>> At 09:25 PM 2/17/2010, Zach Young wrote: >>> > Ken wrote: >>> > I totally agree with her and just think that taking her message as >>> meaning not to write IDs ever is the wrong one. For instance if there was a >>> #branding it does not mean you could not use a CSS object/class with it. I >>> just still think page structure should be ID driven, MHO. >>> > >>> >>> I tend to agree. There's also just a lot of good semanticness that can >>> be had with ids (for example the branding id.) Makes more sense >>> semantically for that to be an id than a class. Anyway, just my 2 >>> cents. >>> >>> I know its out of fashion, but I'm not convinced that its bad to use a >>> fair amount of ids (regardless of whether you're styling them based on >>> id or not.) Personally I still use ids for my page structure (and >>> semantic meaning) and classes for everything else. >>> >>> Zach >>> _______________________ >>> Wsuug mailing list >>> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >>> >>> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >>> >>> >>> _ >>> Wsuug mailing list >>> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >>> >>> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >>> >>> >>> _ >>> Wsuug mailing list >>> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >>> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >>> >> >> _______________________ >> Wsuug mailing list >> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ken at metaskills.net Thu Feb 18 08:47:04 2010 From: ken at metaskills.net (Ken Collins) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 08:47:04 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] New Web Page In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20100218075802.058488c8@pop.inkworkswell.com> References: <424f9b531002031128o2816311q9cc12b722a004d81@mail.gmail.com> <4B7C76EB.4000109@inkworkswell.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217191223.05722ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <4D5AC745-01E0-48B8-A2A6-E4DC385A348C@metaskills.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217195527.05139ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <243A63D3-CE0A-4231-879F-9F65C7FF62BB@metaskills.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217203139.05a76e50@pop.inkworkswell.com> <8C35EEE5-F4F8-4CF4-954B-5F2304D2EE3D@metaskills.net> <424f9b531002171825h29f25ad4s3c429067e4ff0ffe@mail.gmail.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217221854.050a0b88@pop.inkworkswell.com> <1499abcc1002180447n248892ek2a80f3c42eefa031@mail.gmail.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100218075802.058488c8@pop.inkworkswell.com> Message-ID: <3ABB8F74-0348-4967-9B84-98C15C982BFC@metaskills.net> ID means singular, structure, rigid. Clases are like objects. I've spent a ton of time in CSS and use semantics of ID meaning structure as a way to organize and be self aware of what is happening without even looking at the page. I understand and agree with OO-CSS and tho the moniker is new to me, I think I have been doing it for at least 5 years or so. I love Nicole's presentation and concept, I totally agree with it. But I will never use classes for layout. I think its just wrong. #leftnav { width:240px; ... } #leftnav h1 { ... } #content { ... } #content h1 { ... } Then I can scope DOM js things to sections of the page and my CSS selectors are more targeted, does it save speed on massive JS calls $$('#content a')... I bet, enough to worry about and pre optimize for, I dunno. But to me the semantics of IDs for structure as it pertains the internal semantics of the developers mind, logic structure of a page and how selectors can be scoped are important. The good thing is this is technically not against what Nicole was teaching. Just because you use IDs to structure major sections of the page/template does not mean you are limited in any technical or creative OO-CSS way. These ideas are not mutually exclusive.
...
I agree with OO-CSS, but if I would go nuts if I saw that class only organization in my code repository. That's just me and sharing a healthy debate, but the good thing is that my concept of IDs for structure have only positive results, good semantics (developer) and do not block out any OO-CSS theory. I think a dogmatic/religious use of classes everywhere just degrades what ID's are supposed to be used for and I think Nicole would technically agree if you quizzed her. If not, then I just disagree. - Ken On Feb 18, 2010, at 7:59 AM, Kelley Walker wrote: > so how does naming something a class make is have meaning in a way that's different from an id? i get why the name of the class or id, matters, but not why class and id are different in terms of meaning. specificity, yes. > > as for microformats, since I'm a big promoter of microformats, I sent that along for irony. :) > > k > > At 07:47 AM 2/18/2010, Ryan Brunsvold wrote: >> Two of the better (or at least better organized) resources for HTML5 and CSS3 that I've found is the HTML5 Doctor (http://html5doctor.com/) and CSS3 Info (http://www.css3.info/). As far as Microformats are concerned, I have to disagree with most of Atwood's points. I'd be happy to go into the specifics of my argument if so desired, but for now I'd prefer we use them for a few simple reasons. Namely, that Microformats are... >> >> * easy to learn >> * easy to implement >> * yet another technology that helps us fulfill the original charter of a Refresh Chapter >> >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 1:20 AM, Kelley Walker <kcwalker at inkworkswell.com> wrote: >> ooooo. that's a new one. where can i read up on the semanticness conveyed by class v id? i was unaware that, by themselves, the class and id conveyed semantic meaning as class versus id. >> >> i always thought it was the naming that conveyed semantic meaning. thus, andy clarke argued for the use of "branding" to convey the meaning of what people often call the "header" or "masthead". Both header and masthead, Clarke argued, conveyed locational or positional information. heading or masthead might not make sense if you had a page where there was no header and instead a band down the side of the page or the middle contained the branding information. >> >> html5 decided to go with
. >> >> so, i've have been using a content-based workflow where i refuse to look at the design and only go by the _content_. i would have only taken the words and functiongs on the refresh mock, getting rid of everything else and marking it up on the basis of content only. that's the method advocated by clarke and by progressive enhancement enthusiasts. >> >> >> >> ken: here's is Nicole's layout: http://wiki.github.com/stubbornella/oocss/template >> >> notice it uses no IDs. >> >> it's a religion thing. :) >> >> i propose that the first extension of the refresh pages be called Religion. >> >> >> >> Kelley >> >> >> At 09:25 PM 2/17/2010, Zach Young wrote: >> > Ken wrote: >> > I totally agree with her and just think that taking her message as meaning not to write IDs ever is the wrong one. For instance if there was a #branding it does not mean you could not use a CSS object/class with it. I just still think page structure should be ID driven, MHO. >> > >> >> I tend to agree. There's also just a lot of good semanticness that can >> be had with ids (for example the branding id.) Makes more sense >> semantically for that to be an id than a class. Anyway, just my 2 >> cents. >> >> I know its out of fashion, but I'm not convinced that its bad to use a >> fair amount of ids (regardless of whether you're styling them based on >> id or not.) Personally I still use ids for my page structure (and >> semantic meaning) and classes for everything else. >> >> Zach >> _______________________ >> Wsuug mailing list >> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >> >> >> _ >> Wsuug mailing list >> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >> >> >> _ >> Wsuug mailing list >> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > > _____________________ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug From jalbertbowden at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 08:52:38 2010 From: jalbertbowden at gmail.com (James Albert Bowden) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 08:52:38 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] (no subject) Message-ID: <1daba98e1002180552s419bdd5dg95f166a037a2ca2d@mail.gmail.com> WOW how did i not get one of those emails? the whole week? fuck your mailing list. brunsvold - you have an opinion? where tf have you been? reese - how many times do i have to tell you to stop wasting your time. i have a ton to say, but i'm picking my words and i'll get to you all when i have time. but refresh is not doing anything that any of ya'll are thinking. maybe in april i'll invite everyone that signed up and let them vote and build it. this secrecy and bullshit behind my back can suck it. and yes i know i'm on a PUBLIC mailing list. i'm also on a million other things that record what i do and i don't worry about that either. one person, transparent, everyone knows. clearly thats too much for some of ya'll. no reese, you can't pitch refresh as yours. sorry. its group/community. jaswa - if you have a problem with the word douchebag, you're a fucking douchebag tired of wasting my time. cheers albert -- J. Albert Bowden II albert.bowden at residentsource.com jalbertbowden at gmail.com c.757.968.9133 w.757.351.7204 http://bowdenweb.com/ http://refreshhamptoads.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From young.zach at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 09:08:36 2010 From: young.zach at gmail.com (Zach Young) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:08:36 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] New Web Page In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20100218075802.058488c8@pop.inkworkswell.com> References: <424f9b531002031128o2816311q9cc12b722a004d81@mail.gmail.com> <4D5AC745-01E0-48B8-A2A6-E4DC385A348C@metaskills.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217195527.05139ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <243A63D3-CE0A-4231-879F-9F65C7FF62BB@metaskills.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217203139.05a76e50@pop.inkworkswell.com> <8C35EEE5-F4F8-4CF4-954B-5F2304D2EE3D@metaskills.net> <424f9b531002171825h29f25ad4s3c429067e4ff0ffe@mail.gmail.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217221854.050a0b88@pop.inkworkswell.com> <1499abcc1002180447n248892ek2a80f3c42eefa031@mail.gmail.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100218075802.058488c8@pop.inkworkswell.com> Message-ID: <424f9b531002180608v3c88955g1d343d91717ee73d@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 7:59 AM, Kelley Walker wrote: > that's a new one. where can i read up on the semanticness conveyed by class v id? i was unaware > that, by themselves, the class and id conveyed semantic meaning as class versus id. > so how does naming something a class make is have meaning in a way that's > different from an id? i get why the name of the class or id, matters, but > not why class and id are different in terms of meaning. specificity, yes. A lot of it may just be in my mind, but I'll try to explain. So take everything that is said from here down as my opinion. This may be more than you need, but I thought I'd be thorough. If you want a one line answer, go to the bottom of the email. For structure I don't know that it really is any better. That's just personal preference. I guess first I should clarify. I'm not saying that classes are not semantic. There are plenty of places where it could be useful. For example if you had a lot of lists of students, giving each a class="students" would be the way to go. However, there seems to be to be more value in saying things like: id="logo" id="branding" etc. for unique elements on a page because it denotes that the element is the only one of its kind on the page and the id tells it what it is. In my mind, class="branding" doesn't have as much value because first I would have to see class="branding" and then check the whole page to see if there are anymore elements with a class of branding. Rather than saying here is A branding (class=branding), using an id says this is THE branding. To me its like using a definite article rather than an indefinite one. Examples of what I mean (using nonexistent HTML in the first example) This element is AN aircraftcarrier (tag) This element has A class of nimitz (class) The element is named THE USS Enterprise (name) This element is THE csv65 (id) If you scrolled to the bottom of the email to skip my rambling, start back here ids are definite articles (ids say "this is THE _") classes are indefinite articles (saying "this is A/AN _") Zach From howell.r at inkworkswell.com Thu Feb 18 09:09:18 2010 From: howell.r at inkworkswell.com (Reese) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:09:18 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] The original question (was: New Web Page) In-Reply-To: <424f9b531002171825h29f25ad4s3c429067e4ff0ffe@mail.gmail.com> References: <424f9b531002031128o2816311q9cc12b722a004d81@mail.gmail.com> <4B6F5EC4.8040704@inkworkswell.com> <4B7C76EB.4000109@inkworkswell.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217191223.05722ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <4D5AC745-01E0-48B8-A2A6-E4DC385A348C@metaskills.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217195527.05139ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <243A63D3-CE0A-4231-879F-9F65C7FF62BB@metaskills.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217203139.05a76e50@pop.inkworkswell.com> <8C35EEE5-F4F8-4CF4-954B-5F2304D2EE3D@metaskills.net> <424f9b531002171825h29f25ad4s3c429067e4ff0ffe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B7D4A0E.4@inkworkswell.com> The id versus class and microformats discussions are both good and they are both worthy of further debate, but they both need to be tabled until the original question has been resolved: What is the best practice for descriptive header content: images or text? Reese From mail at ryanbrunsvold.com Thu Feb 18 09:11:53 2010 From: mail at ryanbrunsvold.com (Ryan Brunsvold) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:11:53 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] Big project for our group Message-ID: <1499abcc1002180611n5cb89e68q1df87d9dd0bf9ca0@mail.gmail.com> Hey Group, I'm currently serving on the Web Standards Proect's ( http://www.webstandards.org/) newly formed Small Business Outreach Team. Our first task is crafting a document tentatively titled "A Guide to Hiring a Web Professional." We are in the beginning stages of crafting the document and all it's applicable resources, but when we are finished I'd like to present it to the group and task everyone with disseminating it in their specific employment sectors. While I'd love to offer a viable time-table as to when it will be finished, I simply cannot at this time. What I can do however, is assure you that I'll keep you guys up-to-date with developments as they occur. This is an excellent opportunity for all of us to publicly affirm our support for standards-based design/development and I'd love everyone's support on this. Thanks, Ryan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ken at metaskills.net Thu Feb 18 09:16:31 2010 From: ken at metaskills.net (Ken Collins) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:16:31 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] The original question (was: New Web Page) In-Reply-To: <4B7D4A0E.4@inkworkswell.com> References: <424f9b531002031128o2816311q9cc12b722a004d81@mail.gmail.com> <4B6F5EC4.8040704@inkworkswell.com> <4B7C76EB.4000109@inkworkswell.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217191223.05722ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <4D5AC745-01E0-48B8-A2A6-E4DC385A348C@metaskills.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217195527.05139ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <243A63D3-CE0A-4231-879F-9F65C7FF62BB@metaskills.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217203139.05a76e50@pop.inkworkswell.com> <8C35EEE5-F4F8-4CF4-954B-5F2304D2EE3D@metaskills.net> <424f9b531002171825h29f25ad4s3c429067e4ff0ffe@mail.gmail.com> <4B7D4A0E.4@inkworkswell.com> Message-ID: Text, use a background for visual appeal, then text-indent it off view. Would be good looking code, work for lynx, etc. I thought that was tabled :) - Ken On Feb 18, 2010, at 9:09 AM, Reese wrote: > The id versus class and microformats discussions are both good and > they are both worthy of further debate, but they both need to be > tabled until the original question has been resolved: > > What is the best practice for descriptive header content: images or > text? > > Reese > > ___________________ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug From chrismjones at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 09:19:56 2010 From: chrismjones at gmail.com (Christopher Jones) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:19:56 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] Big project for our group In-Reply-To: <1499abcc1002180611n5cb89e68q1df87d9dd0bf9ca0@mail.gmail.com> References: <1499abcc1002180611n5cb89e68q1df87d9dd0bf9ca0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Sure. Just let me know what you need. ~ Christopher On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Ryan Brunsvold wrote: > Hey Group, > > I'm currently serving on the Web Standards Proect's ( > http://www.webstandards.org/) newly formed Small Business Outreach Team. > Our first task is crafting a document tentatively titled "A Guide to Hiring > a Web Professional." We are in the beginning stages of crafting the document > and all it's applicable resources, but when we are finished I'd like to > present it to the group and task everyone with disseminating it in their > specific employment sectors. > > While I'd love to offer a viable time-table as to when it will be finished, > I simply cannot at this time. What I can do however, is assure you that I'll > keep you guys up-to-date with developments as they occur. This is an > excellent opportunity for all of us to publicly affirm our support for > standards-based design/development and I'd love everyone's support on this. > > > Thanks, > Ryan > > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mail at ryanbrunsvold.com Thu Feb 18 09:20:03 2010 From: mail at ryanbrunsvold.com (Ryan Brunsvold) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:20:03 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] The original question (was: New Web Page) In-Reply-To: <4B7D4A0E.4@inkworkswell.com> References: <424f9b531002031128o2816311q9cc12b722a004d81@mail.gmail.com> <4B7C76EB.4000109@inkworkswell.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217191223.05722ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <4D5AC745-01E0-48B8-A2A6-E4DC385A348C@metaskills.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217195527.05139ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <243A63D3-CE0A-4231-879F-9F65C7FF62BB@metaskills.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217203139.05a76e50@pop.inkworkswell.com> <8C35EEE5-F4F8-4CF4-954B-5F2304D2EE3D@metaskills.net> <424f9b531002171825h29f25ad4s3c429067e4ff0ffe@mail.gmail.com> <4B7D4A0E.4@inkworkswell.com> Message-ID: <1499abcc1002180620i7188ecd3m8b3081808d93bb8@mail.gmail.com> Taken in stark terms, text is best practice. That being said, as long as we take the initial approach of providing descriptive, assistive-device friendly text the use of images is more than acceptable. On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:09 AM, Reese wrote: > The id versus class and microformats discussions are both good and > they are both worthy of further debate, but they both need to be > tabled until the original question has been resolved: > > What is the best practice for descriptive header content: images or > text? > > Reese > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mail at ryanbrunsvold.com Thu Feb 18 09:23:41 2010 From: mail at ryanbrunsvold.com (Ryan Brunsvold) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:23:41 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1daba98e1002180552s419bdd5dg95f166a037a2ca2d@mail.gmail.com> References: <1daba98e1002180552s419bdd5dg95f166a037a2ca2d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1499abcc1002180623l746ed7c1rf368441705ebe849@mail.gmail.com> I guess I really have been out of the loop, because I wasn't aware of any "secrecy" or individual claims to ownership. Albert, are you building another/original version of the site? Also, let's try to keep the profanity in check. Doesn't really add much to the conversation. On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 8:52 AM, James Albert Bowden < jalbertbowden at gmail.com> wrote: > WOW > how did i not get one of those emails? the whole week? fuck your mailing > list. > brunsvold - you have an opinion? where tf have you been? > reese - how many times do i have to tell you to stop wasting your time. > i have a ton to say, but i'm picking my words and i'll get to you all when > i have time. but refresh is not doing anything that any of ya'll are > thinking. > maybe in april i'll invite everyone that signed up and let them vote and > build it. > this secrecy and bullshit behind my back can suck it. and yes i know i'm on > a PUBLIC mailing list. i'm also on a million other things that record what i > do and i don't worry about that either. one person, transparent, everyone > knows. clearly thats too much for some of ya'll. > no reese, you can't pitch refresh as yours. sorry. its group/community. > jaswa - if you have a problem with the word douchebag, you're a fucking > douchebag > tired of wasting my time. > cheers > albert > > > -- > J. Albert Bowden II > albert.bowden at residentsource.com > jalbertbowden at gmail.com > c.757.968.9133 > w.757.351.7204 > http://bowdenweb.com/ > http://refreshhamptoads.org > > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From young.zach at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 09:25:34 2010 From: young.zach at gmail.com (Zach Young) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:25:34 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] Big project for our group In-Reply-To: References: <1499abcc1002180611n5cb89e68q1df87d9dd0bf9ca0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <424f9b531002180625n5669babfybda9ac3460b815a3@mail.gmail.com> same here. zach On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:19 AM, Christopher Jones wrote: > Sure. Just let me know what you need. > > ~ Christopher > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Ryan Brunsvold > wrote: >> >> Hey Group, >> >> I'm currently serving on the Web Standards Proect's >> (http://www.webstandards.org/) newly formed Small Business Outreach Team. >> Our first task is crafting a document tentatively titled "A Guide to Hiring >> a Web Professional." We are in the beginning stages of crafting the document >> and all it's applicable resources, but when we are finished I'd like to >> present it to the group and task everyone with disseminating it in their >> specific employment sectors. >> >> While I'd love to offer a viable time-table as to when it will be >> finished, I simply cannot at this time. What I can do however, is assure you >> that I'll keep you guys up-to-date with developments as they occur. This is >> an excellent opportunity for all of us to publicly affirm our support for >> standards-based design/development and I'd love everyone's support on this. >> >> >> Thanks, >> Ryan >> >> >> _ >> Wsuug mailing list >> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >> > > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > > From josh at thisisgrow.com Thu Feb 18 09:39:30 2010 From: josh at thisisgrow.com (Joshua McDonald) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:39:30 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1daba98e1002180552s419bdd5dg95f166a037a2ca2d@mail.gmail.com> References: <1daba98e1002180552s419bdd5dg95f166a037a2ca2d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The tone of this email is definitely out of order, and uncalled for. When you send an email to a mailing list you're speaking to everyone, and frankly, I don't take kindly to being spoken to or at in that manner. Congratulations, you're another internet tough guy. And speaking like a boorish child doesn't make you transparent or special - it makes you a boorish child. Joshua McDonald On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 8:52 AM, James Albert Bowden < jalbertbowden at gmail.com> wrote: > WOW > how did i not get one of those emails? the whole week? fuck your mailing > list. > brunsvold - you have an opinion? where tf have you been? > reese - how many times do i have to tell you to stop wasting your time. > i have a ton to say, but i'm picking my words and i'll get to you all when > i have time. but refresh is not doing anything that any of ya'll are > thinking. > maybe in april i'll invite everyone that signed up and let them vote and > build it. > this secrecy and bullshit behind my back can suck it. and yes i know i'm on > a PUBLIC mailing list. i'm also on a million other things that record what i > do and i don't worry about that either. one person, transparent, everyone > knows. clearly thats too much for some of ya'll. > no reese, you can't pitch refresh as yours. sorry. its group/community. > jaswa - if you have a problem with the word douchebag, you're a fucking > douchebag > tired of wasting my time. > cheers > albert > > > -- > J. Albert Bowden II > albert.bowden at residentsource.com > jalbertbowden at gmail.com > c.757.968.9133 > w.757.351.7204 > http://bowdenweb.com/ > http://refreshhamptoads.org > > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adam at uptill3.com Thu Feb 18 09:41:41 2010 From: adam at uptill3.com (Adam Crosby) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:41:41 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <1daba98e1002180552s419bdd5dg95f166a037a2ca2d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9601C634-2254-4D12-9E48-21A583E10915@uptill3.com> INTERNET FIGHT!!!!!!!! On Feb 18, 2010, at 9:39 AM, Joshua McDonald wrote: > The tone of this email is definitely out of order, and uncalled for. > > When you send an email to a mailing list you're speaking to everyone, and frankly, I don't take kindly to being spoken to or at in that manner. Congratulations, you're another internet tough guy. > > And speaking like a boorish child doesn't make you transparent or special - it makes you a boorish child. > > Joshua McDonald > > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 8:52 AM, James Albert Bowden wrote: > WOW > how did i not get one of those emails? the whole week? fuck your mailing list. > brunsvold - you have an opinion? where tf have you been? > reese - how many times do i have to tell you to stop wasting your time. > i have a ton to say, but i'm picking my words and i'll get to you all when i have time. but refresh is not doing anything that any of ya'll are thinking. > maybe in april i'll invite everyone that signed up and let them vote and build it. > this secrecy and bullshit behind my back can suck it. and yes i know i'm on a PUBLIC mailing list. i'm also on a million other things that record what i do and i don't worry about that either. one person, transparent, everyone knows. clearly thats too much for some of ya'll. > no reese, you can't pitch refresh as yours. sorry. its group/community. > jaswa - if you have a problem with the word douchebag, you're a fucking douchebag > tired of wasting my time. > cheers > albert > > > -- > J. Albert Bowden II > albert.bowden at residentsource.com > jalbertbowden at gmail.com > c.757.968.9133 > w.757.351.7204 > http://bowdenweb.com/ > http://refreshhamptoads.org > > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > > > _________________________ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kelley.walker at dominionenterprises.com Thu Feb 18 09:47:25 2010 From: kelley.walker at dominionenterprises.com (Kelley Walker) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:47:25 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] Big project for our group In-Reply-To: <1499abcc1002180611n5cb89e68q1df87d9dd0bf9ca0@mail.gmail.com> References: <1499abcc1002180611n5cb89e68q1df87d9dd0bf9ca0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Ryan wrote: Hey Group, I'm currently serving on the Web Standards Proect's (http://www.webstandards.org/) newly formed Small Business Outreach Team. Our first task is crafting a document tentatively titled "A Guide to Hiring a Web Professional." We are in the beginning stages of crafting the document and all it's applicable resources, but when we are finished I'd like to present it to the group and task everyone with disseminating it in their specific employment sectors. While I'd love to offer a viable time-table as to when it will be finished, I simply cannot at this time. What I can do however, is assure you that I'll keep you guys up-to-date with developments as they occur. This is an excellent opportunity for all of us to publicly affirm our support for standards-based design/development and I'd love everyone's support on this. Thanks, Ryan -------------------------------------------------------- As usual, rock star stuff. I don't know if they're educating clients on how to interact with other small businesses, but if they are, I like the Graphic Artists Guild and AIGA approach to educating potential clients regarding speculative work: http://www.designertoday.com/Articles/4533/Spec.Work.and.Cre ative.Professionals.aspx That may be something the standards group doesn't want to get into, though, so sorry to derail, It is... an obsession so to speak. :) Kelley Kelley Walker Lead Developer, Boat Trader | RV Trader T: 757.351.8615 | F: 757.282.2491 | C 757.717.9969 From josh at thisisgrow.com Thu Feb 18 09:49:58 2010 From: josh at thisisgrow.com (Joshua McDonald) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:49:58 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] New Web Page In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20100217221854.050a0b88@pop.inkworkswell.com> References: <424f9b531002031128o2816311q9cc12b722a004d81@mail.gmail.com> <4B7C76EB.4000109@inkworkswell.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217191223.05722ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <4D5AC745-01E0-48B8-A2A6-E4DC385A348C@metaskills.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217195527.05139ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <243A63D3-CE0A-4231-879F-9F65C7FF62BB@metaskills.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217203139.05a76e50@pop.inkworkswell.com> <8C35EEE5-F4F8-4CF4-954B-5F2304D2EE3D@metaskills.net> <424f9b531002171825h29f25ad4s3c429067e4ff0ffe@mail.gmail.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217221854.050a0b88@pop.inkworkswell.com> Message-ID: This kind of debate is what drives me, and many developers away from being involved in standards groups. Class vs ID is a non-issue and not worth a debate. The choice to use either one effects only the developer. Classes make sense in some cases, IDs make sense in others. I have one #mainNav and one #leftSidebar ... i know I will never have 2 of those on a single page - those are IDs to ME. But if you make them classes, then thats works just as well. I think that what feels comfortable to you has to do with where you started. If you started with HTML, you will probably be more in tune with the class use - if you learned in an OOP environment, you will probably find ID/Class mixes making more sense. It's one of the reasons I respond infrequently to this mailing list. The output is all that matters. The code is irrelevant to the task as long as you reach the output. This debate is about as effective as arguing "$i++" vs "$i = $i + 1" Sure people have written long-winded articles and probably even books about it, but frankly, a lot of articles and books on web development are written for the sake of writing an article or a book and generating site hits and/or sales. I mean no offense to anyone, honestly - but these kinds of debates are just silly, afaik. Joshua McDonald Grow Interactive www.thisisgrow.com 757-248-5274 757-248-5275 (f) On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 1:20 AM, Kelley Walker wrote: > ooooo. that's a new one. where can i read up on the semanticness conveyed > by class v id? i was unaware that, by themselves, the class and id conveyed > semantic meaning as class versus id. > > i always thought it was the naming that conveyed semantic meaning. thus, > andy clarke argued for the use of "branding" to convey the meaning of what > people often call the "header" or "masthead". Both header and masthead, > Clarke argued, conveyed locational or positional information. heading or > masthead might not make sense if you had a page where there was no header > and instead a band down the side of the page or the middle contained the > branding information. > > html5 decided to go with
. > > so, i've have been using a content-based workflow where i refuse to look at > the design and only go by the _content_. i would have only taken the words > and functiongs on the refresh mock, getting rid of everything else and > marking it up on the basis of content only. that's the method advocated by > clarke and by progressive enhancement enthusiasts. > > > > ken: here's is Nicole's layout: > http://wiki.github.com/stubbornella/oocss/template > > notice it uses no IDs. > > it's a religion thing. :) > > i propose that the first extension of the refresh pages be called Religion. > > > > Kelley > > At 09:25 PM 2/17/2010, Zach Young wrote: > >> > Ken wrote: >> > I totally agree with her and just think that taking her message as >> meaning not to write IDs ever is the wrong one. For instance if there was a >> #branding it does not mean you could not use a CSS object/class with it. I >> just still think page structure should be ID driven, MHO. >> > >> >> I tend to agree. There's also just a lot of good semanticness that can >> be had with ids (for example the branding id.) Makes more sense >> semantically for that to be an id than a class. Anyway, just my 2 >> cents. >> >> I know its out of fashion, but I'm not convinced that its bad to use a >> fair amount of ids (regardless of whether you're styling them based on >> id or not.) Personally I still use ids for my page structure (and >> semantic meaning) and classes for everything else. >> >> Zach >> >> _ >> Wsuug mailing list >> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >> > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ken at metaskills.net Thu Feb 18 09:59:00 2010 From: ken at metaskills.net (Ken Collins) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:59:00 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] New Web Page In-Reply-To: References: <424f9b531002031128o2816311q9cc12b722a004d81@mail.gmail.com> <4B7C76EB.4000109@inkworkswell.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217191223.05722ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <4D5AC745-01E0-48B8-A2A6-E4DC385A348C@metaskills.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217195527.05139ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <243A63D3-CE0A-4231-879F-9F65C7FF62BB@metaskills.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217203139.05a76e50@pop.inkworkswell.com> <8C35EEE5-F4F8-4CF4-954B-5F2304D2EE3D@metaskills.net> <424f9b531002171825h29f25ad4s3c429067e4ff0ffe@mail.gmail.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217221854.050a0b88@pop.inkworkswell.com> Message-ID: <363B4265-E7CE-4446-86D5-281A511DCDEB@metaskills.net> I for one enjoy debate because I enjoy learning. If I never brought it up the ID/Class topic, I would have never learned about Nicole's great article. I'm sure everyone can go back to their own camps and exercise their craft and I think forums like this are just the place to air differences and opinions in a constructive fashion. If I veered from that, apologies. But at least everybody knows everybody else's opinion and that perhaps in turn can be used to craft other solutions. I doubt such good things as SASS/CSS-Framworks/Etc came out of non-discordia environments. Opinionated software makes the world go round :) - Ken On Feb 18, 2010, at 9:49 AM, Joshua McDonald wrote: > This kind of debate is what drives me, and many developers away from being involved in standards groups. > > Class vs ID is a non-issue and not worth a debate. The choice to use either one effects only the developer. Classes make sense in some cases, IDs make sense in others. I have one #mainNav and one #leftSidebar ... i know I will never have 2 of those on a single page - those are IDs to ME. But if you make them classes, then thats works just as well. I think that what feels comfortable to you has to do with where you started. If you started with HTML, you will probably be more in tune with the class use - if you learned in an OOP environment, you will probably find ID/Class mixes making more sense. > > It's one of the reasons I respond infrequently to this mailing list. The output is all that matters. The code is irrelevant to the task as long as you reach the output. This debate is about as effective as arguing "$i++" vs "$i = $i + 1" > > Sure people have written long-winded articles and probably even books about it, but frankly, a lot of articles and books on web development are written for the sake of writing an article or a book and generating site hits and/or sales. > > I mean no offense to anyone, honestly - but these kinds of debates are just silly, afaik. > > > > Joshua McDonald > Grow Interactive > www.thisisgrow.com > 757-248-5274 > 757-248-5275 (f) > > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 1:20 AM, Kelley Walker wrote: > ooooo. that's a new one. where can i read up on the semanticness conveyed by class v id? i was unaware that, by themselves, the class and id conveyed semantic meaning as class versus id. > > i always thought it was the naming that conveyed semantic meaning. thus, andy clarke argued for the use of "branding" to convey the meaning of what people often call the "header" or "masthead". Both header and masthead, Clarke argued, conveyed locational or positional information. heading or masthead might not make sense if you had a page where there was no header and instead a band down the side of the page or the middle contained the branding information. > > html5 decided to go with
. > > so, i've have been using a content-based workflow where i refuse to look at the design and only go by the _content_. i would have only taken the words and functiongs on the refresh mock, getting rid of everything else and marking it up on the basis of content only. that's the method advocated by clarke and by progressive enhancement enthusiasts. > > > > ken: here's is Nicole's layout: http://wiki.github.com/stubbornella/oocss/template > > notice it uses no IDs. > > it's a religion thing. :) > > i propose that the first extension of the refresh pages be called Religion. > > > > Kelley > > At 09:25 PM 2/17/2010, Zach Young wrote: > > Ken wrote: > > I totally agree with her and just think that taking her message as meaning not to write IDs ever is the wrong one. For instance if there was a #branding it does not mean you could not use a CSS object/class with it. I just still think page structure should be ID driven, MHO. > > > > I tend to agree. There's also just a lot of good semanticness that can > be had with ids (for example the branding id.) Makes more sense > semantically for that to be an id than a class. Anyway, just my 2 > cents. > > I know its out of fashion, but I'm not convinced that its bad to use a > fair amount of ids (regardless of whether you're styling them based on > id or not.) Personally I still use ids for my page structure (and > semantic meaning) and classes for everything else. > > Zach > > _______________________ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jalbertbowden at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 11:42:46 2010 From: jalbertbowden at gmail.com (James Albert Bowden) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:42:46 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] (no subject) Message-ID: <1daba98e1002180842i3f6e4937qce8282387e24b015@mail.gmail.com> ryan - yes i am. at 2 dudes idk and never ever ever ever ever respond....hey at least it got a response. the only time i get a response is when i do something like that. furthermore, we're adults, if you can't handle "curse" words, that's your problem. when you get out of middle school, hit me up, refresh will be up before then. -- J. Albert Bowden II albert.bowden at residentsource.com jalbertbowden at gmail.com c.757.968.9133 w.757.351.7204 http://bowdenweb.com/ http://refreshhamptoads.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From howell.r at inkworkswell.com Thu Feb 18 11:48:55 2010 From: howell.r at inkworkswell.com (Reese) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:48:55 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] Big project for our group In-Reply-To: <1499abcc1002180611n5cb89e68q1df87d9dd0bf9ca0@mail.gmail.com> References: <1499abcc1002180611n5cb89e68q1df87d9dd0bf9ca0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B7D6F77.1000709@inkworkswell.com> On 18-Feb-10 09:11, Ryan Brunsvold wrote: > Hey Group, > > I'm currently serving on the Web Standards Proect's ( > http://www.webstandards.org/) newly formed Small Business Outreach Team. Our > first task is crafting a document tentatively titled "A Guide to Hiring a > Web Professional." We are in the beginning stages of crafting the document > and all it's applicable resources, but when we are finished I'd like to > present it to the group and task everyone with disseminating it in their > specific employment sectors. > > While I'd love to offer a viable time-table as to when it will be finished, > I simply cannot at this time. What I can do however, is assure you that I'll > keep you guys up-to-date with developments as they occur. This is an > excellent opportunity for all of us to publicly affirm our support for > standards-based design/development and I'd love everyone's support on this. It sounds great, but I'm wondering if we'll get any input on the actual contents? There are also some topics that can only be described as "religious" so I'm wondering if and how those might be addressed? Reese From mail at ryanbrunsvold.com Thu Feb 18 12:19:29 2010 From: mail at ryanbrunsvold.com (Ryan Brunsvold) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:19:29 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1daba98e1002180842i3f6e4937qce8282387e24b015@mail.gmail.com> References: <1daba98e1002180842i3f6e4937qce8282387e24b015@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1499abcc1002180919s3069a219md88de60ec5c5a58c@mail.gmail.com> Albert, So if you're working on an alternate Refresh site, will you be sharing it with this Refresh group or are you starting your own independent chapter? Bit confused on this point. Also confused as to your vitriol comments. Regardless, you're correct on one point. We are indeed adults and as adults we should have learned by now that extending common courtesy and respect to other professionals is good manners and more often than not, good business. For my part, I'm in this to learn and where I can, teach. I don't think I need to remind you or anyone affiliated with this group that this is purely a volunteer effort. There's simply no reason for for this level of venom. If the communication or operations of Refresh are creating such a high level of stress that you feel the need to lash out at people, perhaps you should take a break and consider what you wanted to accomplish when you first got involved. No one's losing a job, or family, or friends over what we do here. Conversely, by organizing and promoting the best practices in what we all do for a living, we have the chance to impact this region's approach to web site development. If done correctly, what we do here will most definitely have an impact (for the better) on our professional future. That's the main reason I'm involved. If you, or anyone, in this group has personal motivations that seek to disrupt or poison that goal, please let me know as soon as possible as I have no intention of supporting anyone's personal agenda. On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:42 AM, James Albert Bowden < jalbertbowden at gmail.com> wrote: > ryan - yes i am. > at 2 dudes idk and never ever ever ever ever respond....hey at least it got > a response. the only time i get a response is when i do something like that. > > furthermore, we're adults, if you can't handle "curse" words, that's your > problem. when you get out of middle school, hit me up, refresh will be up > before then. > > -- > J. Albert Bowden II > albert.bowden at residentsource.com > jalbertbowden at gmail.com > c.757.968.9133 > w.757.351.7204 > http://bowdenweb.com/ > http://refreshhamptoads.org > > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mail at ryanbrunsvold.com Thu Feb 18 12:27:15 2010 From: mail at ryanbrunsvold.com (Ryan Brunsvold) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:27:15 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] Big project for our group In-Reply-To: <4B7D6F77.1000709@inkworkswell.com> References: <1499abcc1002180611n5cb89e68q1df87d9dd0bf9ca0@mail.gmail.com> <4B7D6F77.1000709@inkworkswell.com> Message-ID: <1499abcc1002180927x146263e3kb37f3889cd934663@mail.gmail.com> Reese, I am one of thirty individuals involved in this process at WaSP. I'm thrilled to be working in the company of some of our industry's most reasonable and intelligent voices on the subject. Aaron Gustafson, Kimberly Blessing, and Derek Featherstone, (just to name a few) are moderators and de-facto managers of the entire project. As such, the ideas generated by the group are in extremely competent hands. As production goals are met, I'll be happy to share them with the Refresh group. If nothing else, I'm sure it's bound to generate some awesome conversation. On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:48 AM, Reese wrote: > On 18-Feb-10 09:11, Ryan Brunsvold wrote: > >> Hey Group, >> >> I'm currently serving on the Web Standards Proect's ( >> http://www.webstandards.org/) newly formed Small Business Outreach Team. >> Our >> first task is crafting a document tentatively titled "A Guide to Hiring a >> Web Professional." We are in the beginning stages of crafting the document >> and all it's applicable resources, but when we are finished I'd like to >> present it to the group and task everyone with disseminating it in their >> specific employment sectors. >> >> While I'd love to offer a viable time-table as to when it will be >> finished, >> I simply cannot at this time. What I can do however, is assure you that >> I'll >> keep you guys up-to-date with developments as they occur. This is an >> excellent opportunity for all of us to publicly affirm our support for >> standards-based design/development and I'd love everyone's support on >> this. >> > > It sounds great, but I'm wondering if we'll get any input on the actual > contents? There are also some topics that can only be described as > "religious" so I'm wondering if and how those might be addressed? > > Reese > > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jalbertbowden at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 13:15:27 2010 From: jalbertbowden at gmail.com (James Albert Bowden) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:15:27 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1499abcc1002180919s3069a219md88de60ec5c5a58c@mail.gmail.com> References: <1daba98e1002180842i3f6e4937qce8282387e24b015@mail.gmail.com> <1499abcc1002180919s3069a219md88de60ec5c5a58c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1daba98e1002181015w12ec7983w314e2912cb7a1a6d@mail.gmail.com> i want to accomplish a community. i have no desire to lead or own a thing. i want to learn and share. i'm not working on an "alternate" refresh site...i missed a meeting and all of a sudden Reese is in charge and working on the design. i was tactful and it got no response. i came to wsuug for leadership and for a backend. i've gotten neither. Reese is a backend guy converted to frontend, and doesn't know what he's doing. i was stoked to hear about your design (guess you never found it, huh?) and completely willing to let you make it, cause you know what you're doing. so i am building refresh. correctly. actually incorrectly, because i agree with you, it should be html5, css3 all the way. he has no clue and instead of doing the backend hes doing the frontend. ps - last email he sent me, he asked if he could "own" it and put on his resume because "well you (albert) have a job and i (reese) don't" common courtesy? last time i saw you, was at jeremy's going away party, you mocked me and refresh. thanks buddy. i have a super nice tasty design. and i'm going to push it before i head down to NC JavaScript n jQuery camp this weekend. Refresh Triangle and Refresh Richmond will be there. so will Phil Huggins and Paul Irish (of course i had to use @font-face) and i'm trying to get shit going. i'm thru weak ass meetings with nothing getting accomplished. i'm tired of waiting. dont talk to me about if done correctly....i've been planning this out for A YEAR. if you ever came to any meetings or were more involved then you might have a clue. this is a rambling, but i'm irate and over all of it. dont care about a mailing list. already have 40 some peeps want in, send them an email, get them together in april, they can decide on where this goes. as for professionalism, whatever. don't fucking lecture me. a whole list of dooshbags on that list that never answer to shit. sorry if it takes a curse word to get them to respond. thats their fault and their problem. bigger and brighter things. On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Ryan Brunsvold wrote: > Albert, > > So if you're working on an alternate Refresh site, will you be sharing it > with this Refresh group or are you starting your own independent chapter? > Bit confused on this point. Also confused as to your vitriol comments. > Regardless, you're correct on one point. We are indeed adults and as adults > we should have learned by now that extending common courtesy and respect to > other professionals is good manners and more often than not, good business. > > For my part, I'm in this to learn and where I can, teach. I don't think I > need to remind you or anyone affiliated with this group that this is purely > a volunteer effort. There's simply no reason for for this level of venom. If > the communication or operations of Refresh are creating such a high level of > stress that you feel the need to lash out at people, perhaps you should take > a break and consider what you wanted to accomplish when you first got > involved. No one's losing a job, or family, or friends over what we do here. > > > Conversely, by organizing and promoting the best practices in what we all > do for a living, we have the chance to impact this region's approach to web > site development. If done correctly, what we do here will most definitely > have an impact (for the better) on our professional future. That's the main > reason I'm involved. If you, or anyone, in this group has personal > motivations that seek to disrupt or poison that goal, please let me know as > soon as possible as I have no intention of supporting anyone's personal > agenda. > > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:42 AM, James Albert Bowden < > jalbertbowden at gmail.com> wrote: > >> ryan - yes i am. >> at 2 dudes idk and never ever ever ever ever respond....hey at least it >> got a response. the only time i get a response is when i do something like >> that. >> furthermore, we're adults, if you can't handle "curse" words, that's your >> problem. when you get out of middle school, hit me up, refresh will be up >> before then. >> >> -- >> J. Albert Bowden II >> albert.bowden at residentsource.com >> jalbertbowden at gmail.com >> c.757.968.9133 >> w.757.351.7204 >> http://bowdenweb.com/ >> http://refreshhamptoads.org >> >> >> _ >> Wsuug mailing list >> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >> >> > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > > -- J. Albert Bowden II albert.bowden at residentsource.com jalbertbowden at gmail.com c.757.968.9133 w.757.351.7204 http://bowdenweb.com/ http://refreshhamptoads.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mail at ryanbrunsvold.com Thu Feb 18 13:39:46 2010 From: mail at ryanbrunsvold.com (Ryan Brunsvold) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:39:46 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1daba98e1002181015w12ec7983w314e2912cb7a1a6d@mail.gmail.com> References: <1daba98e1002180842i3f6e4937qce8282387e24b015@mail.gmail.com> <1499abcc1002180919s3069a219md88de60ec5c5a58c@mail.gmail.com> <1daba98e1002181015w12ec7983w314e2912cb7a1a6d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1499abcc1002181039v74b84c3akc1858d84502bf81e@mail.gmail.com> Sorry Albert but I really doubt I mocked you personally or any group. My history with you and a select few of the DE design/dev folks has always been rewarding and I am aware enough of my own behaviour to know whether or not I've been abusive. You are correct in saying that I haven't been involved with Refresh as of late. The last few months have brought some great opportunities my way and I've been either working on them or traveling to ensure their success. Regardless, I was a bit taken aback by the intensity of your tone once I did return to the group discussion. If things have gotten decidedly more intense during my absence, than I'd really like to do what I can to amend that. As for my design, I did indeed have a finished version but suffered a catastrophic hard drive failure and lost it. I was in the process of rebuilding it anyway, but Zach told me not to worry about it as Denise had already presented her design to the group and everyone's expectations were with her vision. Lastly, I wasn't trying to lecture you or anyone else. I was simply pointing out that if people in the group are spending most of their discussion time insulting each other over opinions, not much of anything will ever be accomplished. On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 1:15 PM, James Albert Bowden < jalbertbowden at gmail.com> wrote: > i want to accomplish a community. i have no desire to lead or own a thing. > i want to learn and share. > i'm not working on an "alternate" refresh site...i missed a meeting and all > of a sudden Reese is in charge and working on the design. > i was tactful and it got no response. i came to wsuug for leadership and > for a backend. i've gotten neither. Reese is a backend guy converted to > frontend, and doesn't know what he's doing. > i was stoked to hear about your design (guess you never found it, huh?) and > completely willing to let you make it, cause you know what you're doing. > so i am building refresh. correctly. actually incorrectly, because i agree > with you, it should be html5, css3 all the way. he has no clue and instead > of doing the backend hes doing the frontend. ps - last email he sent me, he > asked if he could "own" it and put on his resume because "well you (albert) > have a job and i (reese) don't" > common courtesy? last time i saw you, was at jeremy's going away party, you > mocked me and refresh. thanks buddy. > i have a super nice tasty design. and i'm going to push it before i head > down to NC JavaScript n jQuery camp this weekend. Refresh Triangle and > Refresh Richmond will be there. so will Phil Huggins and Paul Irish (of > course i had to use @font-face) and i'm trying to get shit going. > i'm thru weak ass meetings with nothing getting accomplished. i'm tired of > waiting. > dont talk to me about if done correctly....i've been planning this out for > A YEAR. if you ever came to any meetings or were more involved then you > might have a clue. > this is a rambling, but i'm irate and over all of it. > dont care about a mailing list. already have 40 some peeps want in, send > them an email, get them together in april, they can decide on where this > goes. > as for professionalism, whatever. don't fucking lecture me. a whole list of > dooshbags on that list that never answer to shit. sorry if it takes a curse > word to get them to respond. thats their fault and their problem. > bigger and brighter things. > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Ryan Brunsvold wrote: > >> Albert, >> >> So if you're working on an alternate Refresh site, will you be sharing it >> with this Refresh group or are you starting your own independent chapter? >> Bit confused on this point. Also confused as to your vitriol comments. >> Regardless, you're correct on one point. We are indeed adults and as adults >> we should have learned by now that extending common courtesy and respect to >> other professionals is good manners and more often than not, good business. >> >> For my part, I'm in this to learn and where I can, teach. I don't think I >> need to remind you or anyone affiliated with this group that this is purely >> a volunteer effort. There's simply no reason for for this level of venom. If >> the communication or operations of Refresh are creating such a high level of >> stress that you feel the need to lash out at people, perhaps you should take >> a break and consider what you wanted to accomplish when you first got >> involved. No one's losing a job, or family, or friends over what we do here. >> >> >> Conversely, by organizing and promoting the best practices in what we all >> do for a living, we have the chance to impact this region's approach to web >> site development. If done correctly, what we do here will most definitely >> have an impact (for the better) on our professional future. That's the main >> reason I'm involved. If you, or anyone, in this group has personal >> motivations that seek to disrupt or poison that goal, please let me know as >> soon as possible as I have no intention of supporting anyone's personal >> agenda. >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:42 AM, James Albert Bowden < >> jalbertbowden at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> ryan - yes i am. >>> at 2 dudes idk and never ever ever ever ever respond....hey at least it >>> got a response. the only time i get a response is when i do something like >>> that. >>> furthermore, we're adults, if you can't handle "curse" words, that's your >>> problem. when you get out of middle school, hit me up, refresh will be up >>> before then. >>> >>> -- >>> J. Albert Bowden II >>> albert.bowden at residentsource.com >>> jalbertbowden at gmail.com >>> c.757.968.9133 >>> w.757.351.7204 >>> http://bowdenweb.com/ >>> http://refreshhamptoads.org >>> >>> >>> _ >>> Wsuug mailing list >>> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >>> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >>> >>> >> >> _ >> Wsuug mailing list >> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >> >> > > > -- > J. Albert Bowden II > albert.bowden at residentsource.com > jalbertbowden at gmail.com > c.757.968.9133 > w.757.351.7204 > http://bowdenweb.com/ > http://refreshhamptoads.org > > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jalbertbowden at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 14:20:02 2010 From: jalbertbowden at gmail.com (James Albert Bowden) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:20:02 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1499abcc1002181039v74b84c3akc1858d84502bf81e@mail.gmail.com> References: <1daba98e1002180842i3f6e4937qce8282387e24b015@mail.gmail.com> <1499abcc1002180919s3069a219md88de60ec5c5a58c@mail.gmail.com> <1daba98e1002181015w12ec7983w314e2912cb7a1a6d@mail.gmail.com> <1499abcc1002181039v74b84c3akc1858d84502bf81e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1daba98e1002181120u215f9ddt29e376b84787bfc@mail.gmail.com> either you did or you didn't. "really doubt" whatever that means. i walked into the bar you said hey albert how's refresh? and you and your buddies laughed. and it was great for you. yay! and you didnt say shit else to me other then that. you are lecturing me telling me what to say or not to say...........i am really livid. i'm tired of waiting. i'm tired of backend dudes building front end. i'm tired of no communication. i'm tired of that gay ass mailing list. you want to help......whatever. i'm all ears. i am pushing what i have up. and i am heading down south. and i am going to invite everyone who signed up to meet in april. thats as far as i've worked it out so far. albuquerque has ignite and an adobe user group. a city of 300k in a desert. we have nothing. this isn't hard. and if people in wsuug don't want in....good riddance. wsuug has accomplished nothing in my eyes. On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 1:39 PM, Ryan Brunsvold wrote: > Sorry Albert but I really doubt I mocked you personally or any group. My > history with you and a select few of the DE design/dev folks has always been > rewarding and I am aware enough of my own behaviour to know whether or not > I've been abusive. You are correct in saying that I haven't been involved > with Refresh as of late. The last few months have brought some great > opportunities my way and I've been either working on them or traveling to > ensure their success. Regardless, I was a bit taken aback by the intensity > of your tone once I did return to the group discussion. If things have > gotten decidedly more intense during my absence, than I'd really like to do > what I can to amend that. > > As for my design, I did indeed have a finished version but suffered a > catastrophic hard drive failure and lost it. I was in the process of > rebuilding it anyway, but Zach told me not to worry about it as Denise had > already presented her design to the group and everyone's expectations were > with her vision. > > Lastly, I wasn't trying to lecture you or anyone else. I was simply > pointing out that if people in the group are spending most of their > discussion time insulting each other over opinions, not much of anything > will ever be accomplished. > > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 1:15 PM, James Albert Bowden < > jalbertbowden at gmail.com> wrote: > >> i want to accomplish a community. i have no desire to lead or own a thing. >> i want to learn and share. >> i'm not working on an "alternate" refresh site...i missed a meeting and >> all of a sudden Reese is in charge and working on the design. >> i was tactful and it got no response. i came to wsuug for leadership and >> for a backend. i've gotten neither. Reese is a backend guy converted to >> frontend, and doesn't know what he's doing. >> i was stoked to hear about your design (guess you never found it, huh?) >> and completely willing to let you make it, cause you know what you're doing. >> >> so i am building refresh. correctly. actually incorrectly, because i agree >> with you, it should be html5, css3 all the way. he has no clue and instead >> of doing the backend hes doing the frontend. ps - last email he sent me, he >> asked if he could "own" it and put on his resume because "well you (albert) >> have a job and i (reese) don't" >> common courtesy? last time i saw you, was at jeremy's going away party, >> you mocked me and refresh. thanks buddy. >> i have a super nice tasty design. and i'm going to push it before i head >> down to NC JavaScript n jQuery camp this weekend. Refresh Triangle and >> Refresh Richmond will be there. so will Phil Huggins and Paul Irish (of >> course i had to use @font-face) and i'm trying to get shit going. >> i'm thru weak ass meetings with nothing getting accomplished. i'm tired of >> waiting. >> dont talk to me about if done correctly....i've been planning this out for >> A YEAR. if you ever came to any meetings or were more involved then you >> might have a clue. >> this is a rambling, but i'm irate and over all of it. >> dont care about a mailing list. already have 40 some peeps want in, send >> them an email, get them together in april, they can decide on where this >> goes. >> as for professionalism, whatever. don't fucking lecture me. a whole list >> of dooshbags on that list that never answer to shit. sorry if it takes a >> curse word to get them to respond. thats their fault and their problem. >> bigger and brighter things. >> >> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Ryan Brunsvold wrote: >> >>> Albert, >>> >>> So if you're working on an alternate Refresh site, will you be sharing it >>> with this Refresh group or are you starting your own independent chapter? >>> Bit confused on this point. Also confused as to your vitriol comments. >>> Regardless, you're correct on one point. We are indeed adults and as adults >>> we should have learned by now that extending common courtesy and respect to >>> other professionals is good manners and more often than not, good business. >>> >>> For my part, I'm in this to learn and where I can, teach. I don't think I >>> need to remind you or anyone affiliated with this group that this is purely >>> a volunteer effort. There's simply no reason for for this level of venom. If >>> the communication or operations of Refresh are creating such a high level of >>> stress that you feel the need to lash out at people, perhaps you should take >>> a break and consider what you wanted to accomplish when you first got >>> involved. No one's losing a job, or family, or friends over what we do here. >>> >>> >>> Conversely, by organizing and promoting the best practices in what we all >>> do for a living, we have the chance to impact this region's approach to web >>> site development. If done correctly, what we do here will most definitely >>> have an impact (for the better) on our professional future. That's the main >>> reason I'm involved. If you, or anyone, in this group has personal >>> motivations that seek to disrupt or poison that goal, please let me know as >>> soon as possible as I have no intention of supporting anyone's personal >>> agenda. >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:42 AM, James Albert Bowden < >>> jalbertbowden at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> ryan - yes i am. >>>> at 2 dudes idk and never ever ever ever ever respond....hey at least it >>>> got a response. the only time i get a response is when i do something like >>>> that. >>>> furthermore, we're adults, if you can't handle "curse" words, that's >>>> your problem. when you get out of middle school, hit me up, refresh will be >>>> up before then. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> J. Albert Bowden II >>>> albert.bowden at residentsource.com >>>> jalbertbowden at gmail.com >>>> c.757.968.9133 >>>> w.757.351.7204 >>>> http://bowdenweb.com/ >>>> http://refreshhamptoads.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _ >>>> Wsuug mailing list >>>> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >>>> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _ >>> Wsuug mailing list >>> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >>> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> J. Albert Bowden II >> albert.bowden at residentsource.com >> jalbertbowden at gmail.com >> c.757.968.9133 >> w.757.351.7204 >> http://bowdenweb.com/ >> http://refreshhamptoads.org >> >> >> _ >> Wsuug mailing list >> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >> >> > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > > -- J. Albert Bowden II albert.bowden at residentsource.com jalbertbowden at gmail.com c.757.968.9133 w.757.351.7204 http://bowdenweb.com/ http://refreshhamptoads.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adam at uptill3.com Thu Feb 18 14:24:21 2010 From: adam at uptill3.com (Adam Crosby) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:24:21 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1daba98e1002181120u215f9ddt29e376b84787bfc@mail.gmail.com> References: <1daba98e1002180842i3f6e4937qce8282387e24b015@mail.gmail.com> <1499abcc1002180919s3069a219md88de60ec5c5a58c@mail.gmail.com> <1daba98e1002181015w12ec7983w314e2912cb7a1a6d@mail.gmail.com> <1499abcc1002181039v74b84c3akc1858d84502bf81e@mail.gmail.com> <1daba98e1002181120u215f9ddt29e376b84787bfc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BE66E76-4279-4CA6-ADC1-B4892A96EC94@uptill3.com> Is there a micro-format for interpersonal oversharing in public? On Feb 18, 2010, at 2:20 PM, James Albert Bowden wrote: > either you did or you didn't. "really doubt" whatever that means. > i walked into the bar you said hey albert how's refresh? and you and your buddies laughed. and it was great for you. yay! and you didnt say shit else to me other then that. > you are lecturing me telling me what to say or not to say...........i am really livid. i'm tired of waiting. i'm tired of backend dudes building front end. i'm tired of no communication. i'm tired of that gay ass mailing list. > you want to help......whatever. i'm all ears. > i am pushing what i have up. and i am heading down south. and i am going to invite everyone who signed up to meet in april. thats as far as i've worked it out so far. > albuquerque has ignite and an adobe user group. a city of 300k in a desert. we have nothing. this isn't hard. and if people in wsuug don't want in....good riddance. wsuug has accomplished nothing in my eyes. > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 1:39 PM, Ryan Brunsvold wrote: > Sorry Albert but I really doubt I mocked you personally or any group. My history with you and a select few of the DE design/dev folks has always been rewarding and I am aware enough of my own behaviour to know whether or not I've been abusive. You are correct in saying that I haven't been involved with Refresh as of late. The last few months have brought some great opportunities my way and I've been either working on them or traveling to ensure their success. Regardless, I was a bit taken aback by the intensity of your tone once I did return to the group discussion. If things have gotten decidedly more intense during my absence, than I'd really like to do what I can to amend that. > > As for my design, I did indeed have a finished version but suffered a catastrophic hard drive failure and lost it. I was in the process of rebuilding it anyway, but Zach told me not to worry about it as Denise had already presented her design to the group and everyone's expectations were with her vision. > > Lastly, I wasn't trying to lecture you or anyone else. I was simply pointing out that if people in the group are spending most of their discussion time insulting each other over opinions, not much of anything will ever be accomplished. > > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 1:15 PM, James Albert Bowden wrote: > i want to accomplish a community. i have no desire to lead or own a thing. i want to learn and share. > i'm not working on an "alternate" refresh site...i missed a meeting and all of a sudden Reese is in charge and working on the design. > i was tactful and it got no response. i came to wsuug for leadership and for a backend. i've gotten neither. Reese is a backend guy converted to frontend, and doesn't know what he's doing. > i was stoked to hear about your design (guess you never found it, huh?) and completely willing to let you make it, cause you know what you're doing. > so i am building refresh. correctly. actually incorrectly, because i agree with you, it should be html5, css3 all the way. he has no clue and instead of doing the backend hes doing the frontend. ps - last email he sent me, he asked if he could "own" it and put on his resume because "well you (albert) have a job and i (reese) don't" > common courtesy? last time i saw you, was at jeremy's going away party, you mocked me and refresh. thanks buddy. > i have a super nice tasty design. and i'm going to push it before i head down to NC JavaScript n jQuery camp this weekend. Refresh Triangle and Refresh Richmond will be there. so will Phil Huggins and Paul Irish (of course i had to use @font-face) and i'm trying to get shit going. > i'm thru weak ass meetings with nothing getting accomplished. i'm tired of waiting. > dont talk to me about if done correctly....i've been planning this out for A YEAR. if you ever came to any meetings or were more involved then you might have a clue. > this is a rambling, but i'm irate and over all of it. > dont care about a mailing list. already have 40 some peeps want in, send them an email, get them together in april, they can decide on where this goes. > as for professionalism, whatever. don't fucking lecture me. a whole list of dooshbags on that list that never answer to shit. sorry if it takes a curse word to get them to respond. thats their fault and their problem. > bigger and brighter things. > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Ryan Brunsvold wrote: > Albert, > > So if you're working on an alternate Refresh site, will you be sharing it with this Refresh group or are you starting your own independent chapter? Bit confused on this point. Also confused as to your vitriol comments. Regardless, you're correct on one point. We are indeed adults and as adults we should have learned by now that extending common courtesy and respect to other professionals is good manners and more often than not, good business. > > For my part, I'm in this to learn and where I can, teach. I don't think I need to remind you or anyone affiliated with this group that this is purely a volunteer effort. There's simply no reason for for this level of venom. If the communication or operations of Refresh are creating such a high level of stress that you feel the need to lash out at people, perhaps you should take a break and consider what you wanted to accomplish when you first got involved. No one's losing a job, or family, or friends over what we do here. > > Conversely, by organizing and promoting the best practices in what we all do for a living, we have the chance to impact this region's approach to web site development. If done correctly, what we do here will most definitely have an impact (for the better) on our professional future. That's the main reason I'm involved. If you, or anyone, in this group has personal motivations that seek to disrupt or poison that goal, please let me know as soon as possible as I have no intention of supporting anyone's personal agenda. > > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:42 AM, James Albert Bowden wrote: > ryan - yes i am. > at 2 dudes idk and never ever ever ever ever respond....hey at least it got a response. the only time i get a response is when i do something like that. > furthermore, we're adults, if you can't handle "curse" words, that's your problem. when you get out of middle school, hit me up, refresh will be up before then. > > -- > J. Albert Bowden II > albert.bowden at residentsource.com > jalbertbowden at gmail.com > c.757.968.9133 > w.757.351.7204 > http://bowdenweb.com/ > http://refreshhamptoads.org > > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > > > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > > > > > -- > J. Albert Bowden II > albert.bowden at residentsource.com > jalbertbowden at gmail.com > c.757.968.9133 > w.757.351.7204 > http://bowdenweb.com/ > http://refreshhamptoads.org > > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > > > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > > > > > -- > J. Albert Bowden II > albert.bowden at residentsource.com > jalbertbowden at gmail.com > c.757.968.9133 > w.757.351.7204 > http://bowdenweb.com/ > http://refreshhamptoads.org > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From erin.walsh at dominionenterprises.com Thu Feb 18 14:27:03 2010 From: erin.walsh at dominionenterprises.com (Erin Walsh) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:27:03 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <4BE66E76-4279-4CA6-ADC1-B4892A96EC94@uptill3.com> References: <1daba98e1002180842i3f6e4937qce8282387e24b015@mail.gmail.com> <1499abcc1002180919s3069a219md88de60ec5c5a58c@mail.gmail.com> <1daba98e1002181015w12ec7983w314e2912cb7a1a6d@mail.gmail.com> <1499abcc1002181039v74b84c3akc1858d84502bf81e@mail.gmail.com> <1daba98e1002181120u215f9ddt29e376b84787bfc@mail.gmail.com> <4BE66E76-4279-4CA6-ADC1-B4892A96EC94@uptill3.com> Message-ID: <419F02C3-E09F-47BC-BF1A-1BA8FF39CFCE@dominionenterprises.com> The end. Let us now return to our regularly scheduled healthy discussion about actual web standards. On Feb 18, 2010, at 2:24 PM, Adam Crosby wrote: Is there a micro-format for interpersonal oversharing in public? On Feb 18, 2010, at 2:20 PM, James Albert Bowden wrote: > either you did or you didn't. "really doubt" whatever that means. > i walked into the bar you said hey albert how's refresh? and you > and your buddies laughed. and it was great for you. yay! and you > didnt say shit else to me other then that. > you are lecturing me telling me what to say or not to > say...........i am really livid. i'm tired of waiting. i'm tired of > backend dudes building front end. i'm tired of no communication. > i'm tired of that gay ass mailing list. > you want to help......whatever. i'm all ears. > i am pushing what i have up. and i am heading down south. and i am > going to invite everyone who signed up to meet in april. thats as > far as i've worked it out so far. > albuquerque has ignite and an adobe user group. a city of 300k in a > desert. we have nothing. this isn't hard. and if people in wsuug > don't want in....good riddance. wsuug has accomplished nothing in > my eyes. > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 1:39 PM, Ryan Brunsvold > wrote: > Sorry Albert but I really doubt I mocked you personally or any > group. My history with you and a select few of the DE design/dev > folks has always been rewarding and I am aware enough of my own > behaviour to know whether or not I've been abusive. You are correct > in saying that I haven't been involved with Refresh as of late. The > last few months have brought some great opportunities my way and > I've been either working on them or traveling to ensure their > success. Regardless, I was a bit taken aback by the intensity of > your tone once I did return to the group discussion. If things have > gotten decidedly more intense during my absence, than I'd really > like to do what I can to amend that. > > As for my design, I did indeed have a finished version but suffered > a catastrophic hard drive failure and lost it. I was in the process > of rebuilding it anyway, but Zach told me not to worry about it as > Denise had already presented her design to the group and everyone's > expectations were with her vision. > > Lastly, I wasn't trying to lecture you or anyone else. I was simply > pointing out that if people in the group are spending most of their > discussion time insulting each other over opinions, not much of > anything will ever be accomplished. > > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 1:15 PM, James Albert Bowden > wrote: > i want to accomplish a community. i have no desire to lead or own a > thing. i want to learn and share. > i'm not working on an "alternate" refresh site...i missed a meeting > and all of a sudden Reese is in charge and working on the design. > i was tactful and it got no response. i came to wsuug for > leadership and for a backend. i've gotten neither. Reese is a > backend guy converted to frontend, and doesn't know what he's doing. > i was stoked to hear about your design (guess you never found it, > huh?) and completely willing to let you make it, cause you know > what you're doing. > so i am building refresh. correctly. actually incorrectly, because > i agree with you, it should be html5, css3 all the way. he has no > clue and instead of doing the backend hes doing the frontend. ps - > last email he sent me, he asked if he could "own" it and put on his > resume because "well you (albert) have a job and i (reese) don't" > common courtesy? last time i saw you, was at jeremy's going away > party, you mocked me and refresh. thanks buddy. > i have a super nice tasty design. and i'm going to push it before i > head down to NC JavaScript n jQuery camp this weekend. Refresh > Triangle and Refresh Richmond will be there. so will Phil Huggins > and Paul Irish (of course i had to use @font-face) and i'm trying > to get shit going. > i'm thru weak ass meetings with nothing getting accomplished. i'm > tired of waiting. > dont talk to me about if done correctly....i've been planning this > out for A YEAR. if you ever came to any meetings or were more > involved then you might have a clue. > this is a rambling, but i'm irate and over all of it. > dont care about a mailing list. already have 40 some peeps want in, > send them an email, get them together in april, they can decide on > where this goes. > as for professionalism, whatever. don't fucking lecture me. a whole > list of dooshbags on that list that never answer to shit. sorry if > it takes a curse word to get them to respond. thats their fault and > their problem. > bigger and brighter things. > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Ryan Brunsvold > wrote: > Albert, > > So if you're working on an alternate Refresh site, will you be > sharing it with this Refresh group or are you starting your own > independent chapter? Bit confused on this point. Also confused as > to your vitriol comments. Regardless, you're correct on one point. > We are indeed adults and as adults we should have learned by now > that extending common courtesy and respect to other professionals > is good manners and more often than not, good business. > > For my part, I'm in this to learn and where I can, teach. I don't > think I need to remind you or anyone affiliated with this group > that this is purely a volunteer effort. There's simply no reason > for for this level of venom. If the communication or operations of > Refresh are creating such a high level of stress that you feel the > need to lash out at people, perhaps you should take a break and > consider what you wanted to accomplish when you first got involved. > No one's losing a job, or family, or friends over what we do here. > > Conversely, by organizing and promoting the best practices in what > we all do for a living, we have the chance to impact this region's > approach to web site development. If done correctly, what we do > here will most definitely have an impact (for the better) on our > professional future. That's the main reason I'm involved. If you, > or anyone, in this group has personal motivations that seek to > disrupt or poison that goal, please let me know as soon as possible > as I have no intention of supporting anyone's personal agenda. > > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:42 AM, James Albert Bowden > wrote: > ryan - yes i am. > at 2 dudes idk and never ever ever ever ever respond....hey at > least it got a response. the only time i get a response is when i > do something like that. > furthermore, we're adults, if you can't handle "curse" words, > that's your problem. when you get out of middle school, hit me up, > refresh will be up before then. > > -- > J. Albert Bowden II > albert.bowden at residentsource.com > jalbertbowden at gmail.com > c.757.968.9133 > w.757.351.7204 > http://bowdenweb.com/ > http://refreshhamptoads.org > > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > > > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > > > > > -- > J. Albert Bowden II > albert.bowden at residentsource.com > jalbertbowden at gmail.com > c.757.968.9133 > w.757.351.7204 > http://bowdenweb.com/ > http://refreshhamptoads.org > > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > > > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > > > > > -- > J. Albert Bowden II > albert.bowden at residentsource.com > jalbertbowden at gmail.com > c.757.968.9133 > w.757.351.7204 > http://bowdenweb.com/ > http://refreshhamptoads.org > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug _ Wsuug mailing list Wsuug at list.wsuug.org http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jalbertbowden at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 14:29:16 2010 From: jalbertbowden at gmail.com (James Albert Bowden) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:29:16 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <419F02C3-E09F-47BC-BF1A-1BA8FF39CFCE@dominionenterprises.com> References: <1daba98e1002180842i3f6e4937qce8282387e24b015@mail.gmail.com> <1499abcc1002180919s3069a219md88de60ec5c5a58c@mail.gmail.com> <1daba98e1002181015w12ec7983w314e2912cb7a1a6d@mail.gmail.com> <1499abcc1002181039v74b84c3akc1858d84502bf81e@mail.gmail.com> <1daba98e1002181120u215f9ddt29e376b84787bfc@mail.gmail.com> <4BE66E76-4279-4CA6-ADC1-B4892A96EC94@uptill3.com> <419F02C3-E09F-47BC-BF1A-1BA8FF39CFCE@dominionenterprises.com> Message-ID: <1daba98e1002181129q1da54c1fx96bf2e5037f9dd06@mail.gmail.com> yes its called who are you On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 2:27 PM, Erin Walsh < erin.walsh at dominionenterprises.com> wrote: > The end. > > Let us now return to our regularly scheduled healthy discussion about > actual web standards. > > > > > On Feb 18, 2010, at 2:24 PM, Adam Crosby wrote: > > Is there a micro-format for interpersonal oversharing in public? > > On Feb 18, 2010, at 2:20 PM, James Albert Bowden wrote: > > either you did or you didn't. "really doubt" whatever that means. > i walked into the bar you said hey albert how's refresh? and you and your > buddies laughed. and it was great for you. yay! and you didnt say shit else > to me other then that. > you are lecturing me telling me what to say or not to say...........i am > really livid. i'm tired of waiting. i'm tired of backend dudes building > front end. i'm tired of no communication. i'm tired of that gay ass mailing > list. > you want to help......whatever. i'm all ears. > i am pushing what i have up. and i am heading down south. and i am going to > invite everyone who signed up to meet in april. thats as far as i've worked > it out so far. > albuquerque has ignite and an adobe user group. a city of 300k in a desert. > we have nothing. this isn't hard. and if people in wsuug don't want > in....good riddance. wsuug has accomplished nothing in my eyes. > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 1:39 PM, Ryan Brunsvold wrote: > >> Sorry Albert but I really doubt I mocked you personally or any group. My >> history with you and a select few of the DE design/dev folks has always been >> rewarding and I am aware enough of my own behaviour to know whether or not >> I've been abusive. You are correct in saying that I haven't been involved >> with Refresh as of late. The last few months have brought some great >> opportunities my way and I've been either working on them or traveling to >> ensure their success. Regardless, I was a bit taken aback by the intensity >> of your tone once I did return to the group discussion. If things have >> gotten decidedly more intense during my absence, than I'd really like to do >> what I can to amend that. >> >> As for my design, I did indeed have a finished version but suffered a >> catastrophic hard drive failure and lost it. I was in the process of >> rebuilding it anyway, but Zach told me not to worry about it as Denise had >> already presented her design to the group and everyone's expectations were >> with her vision. >> >> Lastly, I wasn't trying to lecture you or anyone else. I was simply >> pointing out that if people in the group are spending most of their >> discussion time insulting each other over opinions, not much of anything >> will ever be accomplished. >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 1:15 PM, James Albert Bowden < >> jalbertbowden at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> i want to accomplish a community. i have no desire to lead or own a >>> thing. i want to learn and share. >>> i'm not working on an "alternate" refresh site...i missed a meeting and >>> all of a sudden Reese is in charge and working on the design. >>> i was tactful and it got no response. i came to wsuug for leadership and >>> for a backend. i've gotten neither. Reese is a backend guy converted to >>> frontend, and doesn't know what he's doing. >>> i was stoked to hear about your design (guess you never found it, huh?) >>> and completely willing to let you make it, cause you know what you're doing. >>> >>> so i am building refresh. correctly. actually incorrectly, because i >>> agree with you, it should be html5, css3 all the way. he has no clue and >>> instead of doing the backend hes doing the frontend. ps - last email he sent >>> me, he asked if he could "own" it and put on his resume because "well you >>> (albert) have a job and i (reese) don't" >>> common courtesy? last time i saw you, was at jeremy's going away party, >>> you mocked me and refresh. thanks buddy. >>> i have a super nice tasty design. and i'm going to push it before i head >>> down to NC JavaScript n jQuery camp this weekend. Refresh Triangle and >>> Refresh Richmond will be there. so will Phil Huggins and Paul Irish (of >>> course i had to use @font-face) and i'm trying to get shit going. >>> i'm thru weak ass meetings with nothing getting accomplished. i'm tired >>> of waiting. >>> dont talk to me about if done correctly....i've been planning this out >>> for A YEAR. if you ever came to any meetings or were more involved then you >>> might have a clue. >>> this is a rambling, but i'm irate and over all of it. >>> dont care about a mailing list. already have 40 some peeps want in, send >>> them an email, get them together in april, they can decide on where this >>> goes. >>> as for professionalism, whatever. don't fucking lecture me. a whole list >>> of dooshbags on that list that never answer to shit. sorry if it takes a >>> curse word to get them to respond. thats their fault and their problem. >>> bigger and brighter things. >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Ryan Brunsvold >> > wrote: >>> >>>> Albert, >>>> >>>> So if you're working on an alternate Refresh site, will you be sharing >>>> it with this Refresh group or are you starting your own independent chapter? >>>> Bit confused on this point. Also confused as to your vitriol comments. >>>> Regardless, you're correct on one point. We are indeed adults and as adults >>>> we should have learned by now that extending common courtesy and respect to >>>> other professionals is good manners and more often than not, good business. >>>> >>>> For my part, I'm in this to learn and where I can, teach. I don't think >>>> I need to remind you or anyone affiliated with this group that this is >>>> purely a volunteer effort. There's simply no reason for for this level of >>>> venom. If the communication or operations of Refresh are creating such a >>>> high level of stress that you feel the need to lash out at people, perhaps >>>> you should take a break and consider what you wanted to accomplish when you >>>> first got involved. No one's losing a job, or family, or friends over what >>>> we do here. >>>> >>>> Conversely, by organizing and promoting the best practices in what we >>>> all do for a living, we have the chance to impact this region's approach to >>>> web site development. If done correctly, what we do here will most >>>> definitely have an impact (for the better) on our professional future. >>>> That's the main reason I'm involved. If you, or anyone, in this group has >>>> personal motivations that seek to disrupt or poison that goal, please let me >>>> know as soon as possible as I have no intention of supporting anyone's >>>> personal agenda. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:42 AM, James Albert Bowden < >>>> jalbertbowden at gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> ryan - yes i am. >>>>> at 2 dudes idk and never ever ever ever ever respond....hey at least it >>>>> got a response. the only time i get a response is when i do something like >>>>> that. >>>>> furthermore, we're adults, if you can't handle "curse" words, that's >>>>> your problem. when you get out of middle school, hit me up, refresh will be >>>>> up before then. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> J. Albert Bowden II >>>>> albert.bowden at residentsource.com >>>>> jalbertbowden at gmail.com >>>>> c.757.968.9133 >>>>> w.757.351.7204 >>>>> http://bowdenweb.com/ >>>>> http://refreshhamptoads.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _ >>>>> Wsuug mailing list >>>>> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >>>>> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _ >>>> Wsuug mailing list >>>> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >>>> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> J. Albert Bowden II >>> albert.bowden at residentsource.com >>> jalbertbowden at gmail.com >>> c.757.968.9133 >>> w.757.351.7204 >>> http://bowdenweb.com/ >>> http://refreshhamptoads.org >>> >>> >>> _ >>> Wsuug mailing list >>> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >>> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >>> >>> >> >> _ >> Wsuug mailing list >> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >> >> > > > -- > J. Albert Bowden II > albert.bowden at residentsource.com > jalbertbowden at gmail.com > c.757.968.9133 > w.757.351.7204 > http://bowdenweb.com/ > http://refreshhamptoads.org > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > > -- J. Albert Bowden II albert.bowden at residentsource.com jalbertbowden at gmail.com c.757.968.9133 w.757.351.7204 http://bowdenweb.com/ http://refreshhamptoads.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jalbertbowden at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 14:30:31 2010 From: jalbertbowden at gmail.com (James Albert Bowden) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:30:31 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1daba98e1002181129q1da54c1fx96bf2e5037f9dd06@mail.gmail.com> References: <1daba98e1002180842i3f6e4937qce8282387e24b015@mail.gmail.com> <1499abcc1002180919s3069a219md88de60ec5c5a58c@mail.gmail.com> <1daba98e1002181015w12ec7983w314e2912cb7a1a6d@mail.gmail.com> <1499abcc1002181039v74b84c3akc1858d84502bf81e@mail.gmail.com> <1daba98e1002181120u215f9ddt29e376b84787bfc@mail.gmail.com> <4BE66E76-4279-4CA6-ADC1-B4892A96EC94@uptill3.com> <419F02C3-E09F-47BC-BF1A-1BA8FF39CFCE@dominionenterprises.com> <1daba98e1002181129q1da54c1fx96bf2e5037f9dd06@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1daba98e1002181130n795ca8g86a95fd197096c6@mail.gmail.com> and to all you whiners.....more chatter on here today then the past year. so keep whining. On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 2:29 PM, James Albert Bowden < jalbertbowden at gmail.com> wrote: > yes its called who are you > > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 2:27 PM, Erin Walsh < > erin.walsh at dominionenterprises.com> wrote: > >> The end. >> >> Let us now return to our regularly scheduled healthy discussion about >> actual web standards. >> >> >> >> >> On Feb 18, 2010, at 2:24 PM, Adam Crosby wrote: >> >> Is there a micro-format for interpersonal oversharing in public? >> >> On Feb 18, 2010, at 2:20 PM, James Albert Bowden wrote: >> >> either you did or you didn't. "really doubt" whatever that means. >> i walked into the bar you said hey albert how's refresh? and you and your >> buddies laughed. and it was great for you. yay! and you didnt say shit else >> to me other then that. >> you are lecturing me telling me what to say or not to say...........i am >> really livid. i'm tired of waiting. i'm tired of backend dudes building >> front end. i'm tired of no communication. i'm tired of that gay ass mailing >> list. >> you want to help......whatever. i'm all ears. >> i am pushing what i have up. and i am heading down south. and i am going >> to invite everyone who signed up to meet in april. thats as far as i've >> worked it out so far. >> albuquerque has ignite and an adobe user group. a city of 300k in a >> desert. we have nothing. this isn't hard. and if people in wsuug don't want >> in....good riddance. wsuug has accomplished nothing in my eyes. >> >> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 1:39 PM, Ryan Brunsvold wrote: >> >>> Sorry Albert but I really doubt I mocked you personally or any group. My >>> history with you and a select few of the DE design/dev folks has always been >>> rewarding and I am aware enough of my own behaviour to know whether or not >>> I've been abusive. You are correct in saying that I haven't been involved >>> with Refresh as of late. The last few months have brought some great >>> opportunities my way and I've been either working on them or traveling to >>> ensure their success. Regardless, I was a bit taken aback by the intensity >>> of your tone once I did return to the group discussion. If things have >>> gotten decidedly more intense during my absence, than I'd really like to do >>> what I can to amend that. >>> >>> As for my design, I did indeed have a finished version but suffered a >>> catastrophic hard drive failure and lost it. I was in the process of >>> rebuilding it anyway, but Zach told me not to worry about it as Denise had >>> already presented her design to the group and everyone's expectations were >>> with her vision. >>> >>> Lastly, I wasn't trying to lecture you or anyone else. I was simply >>> pointing out that if people in the group are spending most of their >>> discussion time insulting each other over opinions, not much of anything >>> will ever be accomplished. >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 1:15 PM, James Albert Bowden < >>> jalbertbowden at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> i want to accomplish a community. i have no desire to lead or own a >>>> thing. i want to learn and share. >>>> i'm not working on an "alternate" refresh site...i missed a meeting and >>>> all of a sudden Reese is in charge and working on the design. >>>> i was tactful and it got no response. i came to wsuug for leadership and >>>> for a backend. i've gotten neither. Reese is a backend guy converted to >>>> frontend, and doesn't know what he's doing. >>>> i was stoked to hear about your design (guess you never found it, huh?) >>>> and completely willing to let you make it, cause you know what you're doing. >>>> >>>> so i am building refresh. correctly. actually incorrectly, because i >>>> agree with you, it should be html5, css3 all the way. he has no clue and >>>> instead of doing the backend hes doing the frontend. ps - last email he sent >>>> me, he asked if he could "own" it and put on his resume because "well you >>>> (albert) have a job and i (reese) don't" >>>> common courtesy? last time i saw you, was at jeremy's going away party, >>>> you mocked me and refresh. thanks buddy. >>>> i have a super nice tasty design. and i'm going to push it before i head >>>> down to NC JavaScript n jQuery camp this weekend. Refresh Triangle and >>>> Refresh Richmond will be there. so will Phil Huggins and Paul Irish (of >>>> course i had to use @font-face) and i'm trying to get shit going. >>>> i'm thru weak ass meetings with nothing getting accomplished. i'm tired >>>> of waiting. >>>> dont talk to me about if done correctly....i've been planning this out >>>> for A YEAR. if you ever came to any meetings or were more involved then you >>>> might have a clue. >>>> this is a rambling, but i'm irate and over all of it. >>>> dont care about a mailing list. already have 40 some peeps want in, send >>>> them an email, get them together in april, they can decide on where this >>>> goes. >>>> as for professionalism, whatever. don't fucking lecture me. a whole list >>>> of dooshbags on that list that never answer to shit. sorry if it takes a >>>> curse word to get them to respond. thats their fault and their problem. >>>> bigger and brighter things. >>>> >>>> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Ryan Brunsvold < >>>> mail at ryanbrunsvold.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Albert, >>>>> >>>>> So if you're working on an alternate Refresh site, will you be sharing >>>>> it with this Refresh group or are you starting your own independent chapter? >>>>> Bit confused on this point. Also confused as to your vitriol comments. >>>>> Regardless, you're correct on one point. We are indeed adults and as adults >>>>> we should have learned by now that extending common courtesy and respect to >>>>> other professionals is good manners and more often than not, good business. >>>>> >>>>> For my part, I'm in this to learn and where I can, teach. I don't think >>>>> I need to remind you or anyone affiliated with this group that this is >>>>> purely a volunteer effort. There's simply no reason for for this level of >>>>> venom. If the communication or operations of Refresh are creating such a >>>>> high level of stress that you feel the need to lash out at people, perhaps >>>>> you should take a break and consider what you wanted to accomplish when you >>>>> first got involved. No one's losing a job, or family, or friends over what >>>>> we do here. >>>>> >>>>> Conversely, by organizing and promoting the best practices in what we >>>>> all do for a living, we have the chance to impact this region's approach to >>>>> web site development. If done correctly, what we do here will most >>>>> definitely have an impact (for the better) on our professional future. >>>>> That's the main reason I'm involved. If you, or anyone, in this group has >>>>> personal motivations that seek to disrupt or poison that goal, please let me >>>>> know as soon as possible as I have no intention of supporting anyone's >>>>> personal agenda. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:42 AM, James Albert Bowden < >>>>> jalbertbowden at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> ryan - yes i am. >>>>>> at 2 dudes idk and never ever ever ever ever respond....hey at least >>>>>> it got a response. the only time i get a response is when i do something >>>>>> like that. >>>>>> furthermore, we're adults, if you can't handle "curse" words, that's >>>>>> your problem. when you get out of middle school, hit me up, refresh will be >>>>>> up before then. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> J. Albert Bowden II >>>>>> albert.bowden at residentsource.com >>>>>> jalbertbowden at gmail.com >>>>>> c.757.968.9133 >>>>>> w.757.351.7204 >>>>>> http://bowdenweb.com/ >>>>>> http://refreshhamptoads.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _ >>>>>> Wsuug mailing list >>>>>> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >>>>>> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _ >>>>> Wsuug mailing list >>>>> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >>>>> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> J. Albert Bowden II >>>> albert.bowden at residentsource.com >>>> jalbertbowden at gmail.com >>>> c.757.968.9133 >>>> w.757.351.7204 >>>> http://bowdenweb.com/ >>>> http://refreshhamptoads.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _ >>>> Wsuug mailing list >>>> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >>>> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _ >>> Wsuug mailing list >>> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >>> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> J. Albert Bowden II >> albert.bowden at residentsource.com >> jalbertbowden at gmail.com >> c.757.968.9133 >> w.757.351.7204 >> http://bowdenweb.com/ >> http://refreshhamptoads.org >> >> _ >> Wsuug mailing list >> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >> >> >> _ >> Wsuug mailing list >> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >> >> >> _ >> Wsuug mailing list >> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >> >> > > > -- > J. Albert Bowden II > albert.bowden at residentsource.com > jalbertbowden at gmail.com > c.757.968.9133 > w.757.351.7204 > http://bowdenweb.com/ > http://refreshhamptoads.org > > -- J. Albert Bowden II albert.bowden at residentsource.com jalbertbowden at gmail.com c.757.968.9133 w.757.351.7204 http://bowdenweb.com/ http://refreshhamptoads.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jz at frimmin.com Thu Feb 18 14:40:26 2010 From: jz at frimmin.com (Jon Zuck) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:40:26 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] microformats: boon or bane In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.2.0.2.20100218004259.0574b150@pop.inkworkswell.com> Message-ID: <64f12f1d1002181140i170a6937t377f93ebe43996c6@mail.gmail.com> I really respect Atwood when it comes to programming, but I don't really consider him an expert on markup. Jon On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 8:39 AM, Christopher Jones wrote: > Even with his complaints, he says that he will still use them, if for no > other reason than they are easy. That google uses them in search results is > enough for me. > > "Now, all that said, I still think microformats are useful and worth > implementing, if for no other reason than it's too easy not to." > > ~ Christopher > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 12:45 AM, Kelley Walker > wrote: > >> Jeff Atwood at Coding Horror thinks they're (mostly) a bane: >> http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2009/12/microformats-boon-or-bane.html >> >> >> Kelley >> >> _ >> Wsuug mailing list >> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >> > > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > > -- Jon http://www.frimmin.com http://www.wildwebweaving.com http://bonege.com/ "Just sit there right now. Don't do a thing. Just rest. For your separation from God is the hardest work in the world." ~Hafiz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frelin at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 14:40:08 2010 From: frelin at gmail.com (Lucien Frelin) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:40:08 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] Wsuug Digest, Vol 32, Issue 18 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7af352c91002181140m465de272w3686a033b92d302f@mail.gmail.com> I'm reading... and humming. "we didn't start the flame war". On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 2:22 PM, wrote: > Send Wsuug mailing list submissions to > wsuug at list.wsuug.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > wsuug-request at list.wsuug.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > wsuug-owner at list.wsuug.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Wsuug digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: (no subject) (James Albert Bowden) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:30:31 -0500 > From: James Albert Bowden > To: Web Standards and Usability User Group > Subject: Re: [Wsuug] (no subject) > Message-ID: <1daba98e1002181130n795ca8g86a95fd197096c6 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > and to all you whiners.....more chatter on here today then the past year. > so > keep whining. > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 2:29 PM, James Albert Bowden < > jalbertbowden at gmail.com> wrote: > > > yes its called who are you > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 2:27 PM, Erin Walsh < > > erin.walsh at dominionenterprises.com> wrote: > > > >> The end. > >> > >> Let us now return to our regularly scheduled healthy discussion about > >> actual web standards. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Feb 18, 2010, at 2:24 PM, Adam Crosby wrote: > >> > >> Is there a micro-format for interpersonal oversharing in public? > >> > >> On Feb 18, 2010, at 2:20 PM, James Albert Bowden wrote: > >> > >> either you did or you didn't. "really doubt" whatever that means. > >> i walked into the bar you said hey albert how's refresh? and you and > your > >> buddies laughed. and it was great for you. yay! and you didnt say shit > else > >> to me other then that. > >> you are lecturing me telling me what to say or not to say...........i am > >> really livid. i'm tired of waiting. i'm tired of backend dudes building > >> front end. i'm tired of no communication. i'm tired of that gay ass > mailing > >> list. > >> you want to help......whatever. i'm all ears. > >> i am pushing what i have up. and i am heading down south. and i am going > >> to invite everyone who signed up to meet in april. thats as far as i've > >> worked it out so far. > >> albuquerque has ignite and an adobe user group. a city of 300k in a > >> desert. we have nothing. this isn't hard. and if people in wsuug don't > want > >> in....good riddance. wsuug has accomplished nothing in my eyes. > >> > >> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 1:39 PM, Ryan Brunsvold >wrote: > >> > >>> Sorry Albert but I really doubt I mocked you personally or any group. > My > >>> history with you and a select few of the DE design/dev folks has always > been > >>> rewarding and I am aware enough of my own behaviour to know whether or > not > >>> I've been abusive. You are correct in saying that I haven't been > involved > >>> with Refresh as of late. The last few months have brought some great > >>> opportunities my way and I've been either working on them or traveling > to > >>> ensure their success. Regardless, I was a bit taken aback by the > intensity > >>> of your tone once I did return to the group discussion. If things have > >>> gotten decidedly more intense during my absence, than I'd really like > to do > >>> what I can to amend that. > >>> > >>> As for my design, I did indeed have a finished version but suffered a > >>> catastrophic hard drive failure and lost it. I was in the process of > >>> rebuilding it anyway, but Zach told me not to worry about it as Denise > had > >>> already presented her design to the group and everyone's expectations > were > >>> with her vision. > >>> > >>> Lastly, I wasn't trying to lecture you or anyone else. I was simply > >>> pointing out that if people in the group are spending most of their > >>> discussion time insulting each other over opinions, not much of > anything > >>> will ever be accomplished. > >>> > >>> > >>> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 1:15 PM, James Albert Bowden < > >>> jalbertbowden at gmail.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>> i want to accomplish a community. i have no desire to lead or own a > >>>> thing. i want to learn and share. > >>>> i'm not working on an "alternate" refresh site...i missed a meeting > and > >>>> all of a sudden Reese is in charge and working on the design. > >>>> i was tactful and it got no response. i came to wsuug for leadership > and > >>>> for a backend. i've gotten neither. Reese is a backend guy converted > to > >>>> frontend, and doesn't know what he's doing. > >>>> i was stoked to hear about your design (guess you never found it, > huh?) > >>>> and completely willing to let you make it, cause you know what you're > doing. > >>>> > >>>> so i am building refresh. correctly. actually incorrectly, because i > >>>> agree with you, it should be html5, css3 all the way. he has no clue > and > >>>> instead of doing the backend hes doing the frontend. ps - last email > he sent > >>>> me, he asked if he could "own" it and put on his resume because "well > you > >>>> (albert) have a job and i (reese) don't" > >>>> common courtesy? last time i saw you, was at jeremy's going away > party, > >>>> you mocked me and refresh. thanks buddy. > >>>> i have a super nice tasty design. and i'm going to push it before i > head > >>>> down to NC JavaScript n jQuery camp this weekend. Refresh Triangle and > >>>> Refresh Richmond will be there. so will Phil Huggins and Paul Irish > (of > >>>> course i had to use @font-face) and i'm trying to get shit going. > >>>> i'm thru weak ass meetings with nothing getting accomplished. i'm > tired > >>>> of waiting. > >>>> dont talk to me about if done correctly....i've been planning this out > >>>> for A YEAR. if you ever came to any meetings or were more involved > then you > >>>> might have a clue. > >>>> this is a rambling, but i'm irate and over all of it. > >>>> dont care about a mailing list. already have 40 some peeps want in, > send > >>>> them an email, get them together in april, they can decide on where > this > >>>> goes. > >>>> as for professionalism, whatever. don't fucking lecture me. a whole > list > >>>> of dooshbags on that list that never answer to shit. sorry if it takes > a > >>>> curse word to get them to respond. thats their fault and their > problem. > >>>> bigger and brighter things. > >>>> > >>>> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Ryan Brunsvold < > >>>> mail at ryanbrunsvold.com> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Albert, > >>>>> > >>>>> So if you're working on an alternate Refresh site, will you be > sharing > >>>>> it with this Refresh group or are you starting your own independent > chapter? > >>>>> Bit confused on this point. Also confused as to your vitriol > comments. > >>>>> Regardless, you're correct on one point. We are indeed adults and as > adults > >>>>> we should have learned by now that extending common courtesy and > respect to > >>>>> other professionals is good manners and more often than not, good > business. > >>>>> > >>>>> For my part, I'm in this to learn and where I can, teach. I don't > think > >>>>> I need to remind you or anyone affiliated with this group that this > is > >>>>> purely a volunteer effort. There's simply no reason for for this > level of > >>>>> venom. If the communication or operations of Refresh are creating > such a > >>>>> high level of stress that you feel the need to lash out at people, > perhaps > >>>>> you should take a break and consider what you wanted to accomplish > when you > >>>>> first got involved. No one's losing a job, or family, or friends over > what > >>>>> we do here. > >>>>> > >>>>> Conversely, by organizing and promoting the best practices in what we > >>>>> all do for a living, we have the chance to impact this region's > approach to > >>>>> web site development. If done correctly, what we do here will most > >>>>> definitely have an impact (for the better) on our professional > future. > >>>>> That's the main reason I'm involved. If you, or anyone, in this group > has > >>>>> personal motivations that seek to disrupt or poison that goal, please > let me > >>>>> know as soon as possible as I have no intention of supporting > anyone's > >>>>> personal agenda. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:42 AM, James Albert Bowden < > >>>>> jalbertbowden at gmail.com> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> ryan - yes i am. > >>>>>> at 2 dudes idk and never ever ever ever ever respond....hey at least > >>>>>> it got a response. the only time i get a response is when i do > something > >>>>>> like that. > >>>>>> furthermore, we're adults, if you can't handle "curse" words, that's > >>>>>> your problem. when you get out of middle school, hit me up, refresh > will be > >>>>>> up before then. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> J. Albert Bowden II > >>>>>> albert.bowden at residentsource.com > >>>>>> jalbertbowden at gmail.com > >>>>>> c.757.968.9133 > >>>>>> w.757.351.7204 > >>>>>> http://bowdenweb.com/ > >>>>>> http://refreshhamptoads.org > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _ > >>>>>> Wsuug mailing list > >>>>>> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > >>>>>> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _ > >>>>> Wsuug mailing list > >>>>> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > >>>>> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> J. Albert Bowden II > >>>> albert.bowden at residentsource.com > >>>> jalbertbowden at gmail.com > >>>> c.757.968.9133 > >>>> w.757.351.7204 > >>>> http://bowdenweb.com/ > >>>> http://refreshhamptoads.org > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _ > >>>> Wsuug mailing list > >>>> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > >>>> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> _ > >>> Wsuug mailing list > >>> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > >>> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> J. Albert Bowden II > >> albert.bowden at residentsource.com > >> jalbertbowden at gmail.com > >> c.757.968.9133 > >> w.757.351.7204 > >> http://bowdenweb.com/ > >> http://refreshhamptoads.org > >> > >> _ > >> Wsuug mailing list > >> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > >> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > >> > >> > >> _ > >> Wsuug mailing list > >> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > >> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > >> > >> > >> _ > >> Wsuug mailing list > >> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > >> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > J. Albert Bowden II > > albert.bowden at residentsource.com > > jalbertbowden at gmail.com > > c.757.968.9133 > > w.757.351.7204 > > http://bowdenweb.com/ > > http://refreshhamptoads.org > > > > > > > -- > J. Albert Bowden II > albert.bowden at residentsource.com > jalbertbowden at gmail.com > c.757.968.9133 > w.757.351.7204 > http://bowdenweb.com/ > http://refreshhamptoads.org > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/pipermail/wsuug/attachments/20100218/7110bdc9/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > > > End of Wsuug Digest, Vol 32, Issue 18 > ************************************* > -- Lucien Frelin www.ghentcruisers.com | www.lucienfrelin.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mail at ryanbrunsvold.com Thu Feb 18 14:44:41 2010 From: mail at ryanbrunsvold.com (Ryan Brunsvold) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:44:41 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1daba98e1002181130n795ca8g86a95fd197096c6@mail.gmail.com> References: <1daba98e1002180842i3f6e4937qce8282387e24b015@mail.gmail.com> <1499abcc1002180919s3069a219md88de60ec5c5a58c@mail.gmail.com> <1daba98e1002181015w12ec7983w314e2912cb7a1a6d@mail.gmail.com> <1499abcc1002181039v74b84c3akc1858d84502bf81e@mail.gmail.com> <1daba98e1002181120u215f9ddt29e376b84787bfc@mail.gmail.com> <4BE66E76-4279-4CA6-ADC1-B4892A96EC94@uptill3.com> <419F02C3-E09F-47BC-BF1A-1BA8FF39CFCE@dominionenterprises.com> <1daba98e1002181129q1da54c1fx96bf2e5037f9dd06@mail.gmail.com> <1daba98e1002181130n795ca8g86a95fd197096c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1499abcc1002181144h3caa1e23k38a34dad419c3f5c@mail.gmail.com> Alright. This is pointless. Thanks for the reminder Erin. On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 2:30 PM, James Albert Bowden < jalbertbowden at gmail.com> wrote: > and to all you whiners.....more chatter on here today then the past year. > so keep whining. > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 2:29 PM, James Albert Bowden < > jalbertbowden at gmail.com> wrote: > >> yes its called who are you >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 2:27 PM, Erin Walsh < >> erin.walsh at dominionenterprises.com> wrote: >> >>> The end. >>> >>> Let us now return to our regularly scheduled healthy discussion about >>> actual web standards. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Feb 18, 2010, at 2:24 PM, Adam Crosby wrote: >>> >>> Is there a micro-format for interpersonal oversharing in public? >>> >>> On Feb 18, 2010, at 2:20 PM, James Albert Bowden wrote: >>> >>> either you did or you didn't. "really doubt" whatever that means. >>> i walked into the bar you said hey albert how's refresh? and you and your >>> buddies laughed. and it was great for you. yay! and you didnt say shit else >>> to me other then that. >>> you are lecturing me telling me what to say or not to say...........i am >>> really livid. i'm tired of waiting. i'm tired of backend dudes building >>> front end. i'm tired of no communication. i'm tired of that gay ass mailing >>> list. >>> you want to help......whatever. i'm all ears. >>> i am pushing what i have up. and i am heading down south. and i am going >>> to invite everyone who signed up to meet in april. thats as far as i've >>> worked it out so far. >>> albuquerque has ignite and an adobe user group. a city of 300k in a >>> desert. we have nothing. this isn't hard. and if people in wsuug don't want >>> in....good riddance. wsuug has accomplished nothing in my eyes. >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 1:39 PM, Ryan Brunsvold wrote: >>> >>>> Sorry Albert but I really doubt I mocked you personally or any group. My >>>> history with you and a select few of the DE design/dev folks has always been >>>> rewarding and I am aware enough of my own behaviour to know whether or not >>>> I've been abusive. You are correct in saying that I haven't been involved >>>> with Refresh as of late. The last few months have brought some great >>>> opportunities my way and I've been either working on them or traveling to >>>> ensure their success. Regardless, I was a bit taken aback by the intensity >>>> of your tone once I did return to the group discussion. If things have >>>> gotten decidedly more intense during my absence, than I'd really like to do >>>> what I can to amend that. >>>> >>>> As for my design, I did indeed have a finished version but suffered a >>>> catastrophic hard drive failure and lost it. I was in the process of >>>> rebuilding it anyway, but Zach told me not to worry about it as Denise had >>>> already presented her design to the group and everyone's expectations were >>>> with her vision. >>>> >>>> Lastly, I wasn't trying to lecture you or anyone else. I was simply >>>> pointing out that if people in the group are spending most of their >>>> discussion time insulting each other over opinions, not much of anything >>>> will ever be accomplished. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 1:15 PM, James Albert Bowden < >>>> jalbertbowden at gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> i want to accomplish a community. i have no desire to lead or own a >>>>> thing. i want to learn and share. >>>>> i'm not working on an "alternate" refresh site...i missed a meeting and >>>>> all of a sudden Reese is in charge and working on the design. >>>>> i was tactful and it got no response. i came to wsuug for leadership >>>>> and for a backend. i've gotten neither. Reese is a backend guy converted to >>>>> frontend, and doesn't know what he's doing. >>>>> i was stoked to hear about your design (guess you never found it, huh?) >>>>> and completely willing to let you make it, cause you know what you're doing. >>>>> >>>>> so i am building refresh. correctly. actually incorrectly, because i >>>>> agree with you, it should be html5, css3 all the way. he has no clue and >>>>> instead of doing the backend hes doing the frontend. ps - last email he sent >>>>> me, he asked if he could "own" it and put on his resume because "well you >>>>> (albert) have a job and i (reese) don't" >>>>> common courtesy? last time i saw you, was at jeremy's going away party, >>>>> you mocked me and refresh. thanks buddy. >>>>> i have a super nice tasty design. and i'm going to push it before i >>>>> head down to NC JavaScript n jQuery camp this weekend. Refresh Triangle and >>>>> Refresh Richmond will be there. so will Phil Huggins and Paul Irish (of >>>>> course i had to use @font-face) and i'm trying to get shit going. >>>>> i'm thru weak ass meetings with nothing getting accomplished. i'm tired >>>>> of waiting. >>>>> dont talk to me about if done correctly....i've been planning this out >>>>> for A YEAR. if you ever came to any meetings or were more involved then you >>>>> might have a clue. >>>>> this is a rambling, but i'm irate and over all of it. >>>>> dont care about a mailing list. already have 40 some peeps want in, >>>>> send them an email, get them together in april, they can decide on where >>>>> this goes. >>>>> as for professionalism, whatever. don't fucking lecture me. a whole >>>>> list of dooshbags on that list that never answer to shit. sorry if it takes >>>>> a curse word to get them to respond. thats their fault and their problem. >>>>> bigger and brighter things. >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Ryan Brunsvold < >>>>> mail at ryanbrunsvold.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Albert, >>>>>> >>>>>> So if you're working on an alternate Refresh site, will you be sharing >>>>>> it with this Refresh group or are you starting your own independent chapter? >>>>>> Bit confused on this point. Also confused as to your vitriol comments. >>>>>> Regardless, you're correct on one point. We are indeed adults and as adults >>>>>> we should have learned by now that extending common courtesy and respect to >>>>>> other professionals is good manners and more often than not, good business. >>>>>> >>>>>> For my part, I'm in this to learn and where I can, teach. I don't >>>>>> think I need to remind you or anyone affiliated with this group that this is >>>>>> purely a volunteer effort. There's simply no reason for for this level of >>>>>> venom. If the communication or operations of Refresh are creating such a >>>>>> high level of stress that you feel the need to lash out at people, perhaps >>>>>> you should take a break and consider what you wanted to accomplish when you >>>>>> first got involved. No one's losing a job, or family, or friends over what >>>>>> we do here. >>>>>> >>>>>> Conversely, by organizing and promoting the best practices in what we >>>>>> all do for a living, we have the chance to impact this region's approach to >>>>>> web site development. If done correctly, what we do here will most >>>>>> definitely have an impact (for the better) on our professional future. >>>>>> That's the main reason I'm involved. If you, or anyone, in this group has >>>>>> personal motivations that seek to disrupt or poison that goal, please let me >>>>>> know as soon as possible as I have no intention of supporting anyone's >>>>>> personal agenda. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:42 AM, James Albert Bowden < >>>>>> jalbertbowden at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> ryan - yes i am. >>>>>>> at 2 dudes idk and never ever ever ever ever respond....hey at least >>>>>>> it got a response. the only time i get a response is when i do something >>>>>>> like that. >>>>>>> furthermore, we're adults, if you can't handle "curse" words, that's >>>>>>> your problem. when you get out of middle school, hit me up, refresh will be >>>>>>> up before then. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> J. Albert Bowden II >>>>>>> albert.bowden at residentsource.com >>>>>>> jalbertbowden at gmail.com >>>>>>> c.757.968.9133 >>>>>>> w.757.351.7204 >>>>>>> http://bowdenweb.com/ >>>>>>> http://refreshhamptoads.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _ >>>>>>> Wsuug mailing list >>>>>>> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >>>>>>> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _ >>>>>> Wsuug mailing list >>>>>> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >>>>>> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> J. Albert Bowden II >>>>> albert.bowden at residentsource.com >>>>> jalbertbowden at gmail.com >>>>> c.757.968.9133 >>>>> w.757.351.7204 >>>>> http://bowdenweb.com/ >>>>> http://refreshhamptoads.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _ >>>>> Wsuug mailing list >>>>> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >>>>> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _ >>>> Wsuug mailing list >>>> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >>>> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> J. Albert Bowden II >>> albert.bowden at residentsource.com >>> jalbertbowden at gmail.com >>> c.757.968.9133 >>> w.757.351.7204 >>> http://bowdenweb.com/ >>> http://refreshhamptoads.org >>> >>> _ >>> Wsuug mailing list >>> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >>> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >>> >>> >>> _ >>> Wsuug mailing list >>> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >>> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >>> >>> >>> _ >>> Wsuug mailing list >>> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >>> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> J. Albert Bowden II >> albert.bowden at residentsource.com >> jalbertbowden at gmail.com >> c.757.968.9133 >> w.757.351.7204 >> http://bowdenweb.com/ >> http://refreshhamptoads.org >> >> > > > -- > J. Albert Bowden II > albert.bowden at residentsource.com > jalbertbowden at gmail.com > c.757.968.9133 > w.757.351.7204 > http://bowdenweb.com/ > http://refreshhamptoads.org > > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josh at thisisgrow.com Thu Feb 18 14:52:06 2010 From: josh at thisisgrow.com (Joshua McDonald) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:52:06 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1499abcc1002181144h3caa1e23k38a34dad419c3f5c@mail.gmail.com> References: <1daba98e1002180842i3f6e4937qce8282387e24b015@mail.gmail.com> <1499abcc1002180919s3069a219md88de60ec5c5a58c@mail.gmail.com> <1daba98e1002181015w12ec7983w314e2912cb7a1a6d@mail.gmail.com> <1499abcc1002181039v74b84c3akc1858d84502bf81e@mail.gmail.com> <1daba98e1002181120u215f9ddt29e376b84787bfc@mail.gmail.com> <4BE66E76-4279-4CA6-ADC1-B4892A96EC94@uptill3.com> <419F02C3-E09F-47BC-BF1A-1BA8FF39CFCE@dominionenterprises.com> <1daba98e1002181129q1da54c1fx96bf2e5037f9dd06@mail.gmail.com> <1daba98e1002181130n795ca8g86a95fd197096c6@mail.gmail.com> <1499abcc1002181144h3caa1e23k38a34dad419c3f5c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Can someone please remove the troll from the mailing list? He has made it clear he is "tired of that gay ass mailing list." and obviously has nothing to contribute other than spewing crap and fuming over personal grievances. Joshua McDonald Grow Interactive www.thisisgrow.com 757-248-5274 757-248-5275 (f) On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 2:44 PM, Ryan Brunsvold wrote: > Alright. This is pointless. Thanks for the reminder Erin. > > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 2:30 PM, James Albert Bowden < > jalbertbowden at gmail.com> wrote: > >> and to all you whiners.....more chatter on here today then the past year. >> so keep whining. >> >> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 2:29 PM, James Albert Bowden < >> jalbertbowden at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> yes its called who are you >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 2:27 PM, Erin Walsh < >>> erin.walsh at dominionenterprises.com> wrote: >>> >>>> The end. >>>> >>>> Let us now return to our regularly scheduled healthy discussion about >>>> actual web standards. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Feb 18, 2010, at 2:24 PM, Adam Crosby wrote: >>>> >>>> Is there a micro-format for interpersonal oversharing in public? >>>> >>>> On Feb 18, 2010, at 2:20 PM, James Albert Bowden wrote: >>>> >>>> either you did or you didn't. "really doubt" whatever that means. >>>> i walked into the bar you said hey albert how's refresh? and you and >>>> your buddies laughed. and it was great for you. yay! and you didnt say shit >>>> else to me other then that. >>>> you are lecturing me telling me what to say or not to say...........i am >>>> really livid. i'm tired of waiting. i'm tired of backend dudes building >>>> front end. i'm tired of no communication. i'm tired of that gay ass mailing >>>> list. >>>> you want to help......whatever. i'm all ears. >>>> i am pushing what i have up. and i am heading down south. and i am going >>>> to invite everyone who signed up to meet in april. thats as far as i've >>>> worked it out so far. >>>> albuquerque has ignite and an adobe user group. a city of 300k in a >>>> desert. we have nothing. this isn't hard. and if people in wsuug don't want >>>> in....good riddance. wsuug has accomplished nothing in my eyes. >>>> >>>> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 1:39 PM, Ryan Brunsvold >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>> Sorry Albert but I really doubt I mocked you personally or any group. >>>>> My history with you and a select few of the DE design/dev folks has always >>>>> been rewarding and I am aware enough of my own behaviour to know whether or >>>>> not I've been abusive. You are correct in saying that I haven't been >>>>> involved with Refresh as of late. The last few months have brought some >>>>> great opportunities my way and I've been either working on them or traveling >>>>> to ensure their success. Regardless, I was a bit taken aback by the >>>>> intensity of your tone once I did return to the group discussion. If things >>>>> have gotten decidedly more intense during my absence, than I'd really like >>>>> to do what I can to amend that. >>>>> >>>>> As for my design, I did indeed have a finished version but suffered a >>>>> catastrophic hard drive failure and lost it. I was in the process of >>>>> rebuilding it anyway, but Zach told me not to worry about it as Denise had >>>>> already presented her design to the group and everyone's expectations were >>>>> with her vision. >>>>> >>>>> Lastly, I wasn't trying to lecture you or anyone else. I was simply >>>>> pointing out that if people in the group are spending most of their >>>>> discussion time insulting each other over opinions, not much of anything >>>>> will ever be accomplished. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 1:15 PM, James Albert Bowden < >>>>> jalbertbowden at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> i want to accomplish a community. i have no desire to lead or own a >>>>>> thing. i want to learn and share. >>>>>> i'm not working on an "alternate" refresh site...i missed a meeting >>>>>> and all of a sudden Reese is in charge and working on the design. >>>>>> i was tactful and it got no response. i came to wsuug for leadership >>>>>> and for a backend. i've gotten neither. Reese is a backend guy converted to >>>>>> frontend, and doesn't know what he's doing. >>>>>> i was stoked to hear about your design (guess you never found it, >>>>>> huh?) and completely willing to let you make it, cause you know what you're >>>>>> doing. >>>>>> so i am building refresh. correctly. actually incorrectly, because i >>>>>> agree with you, it should be html5, css3 all the way. he has no clue and >>>>>> instead of doing the backend hes doing the frontend. ps - last email he sent >>>>>> me, he asked if he could "own" it and put on his resume because "well you >>>>>> (albert) have a job and i (reese) don't" >>>>>> common courtesy? last time i saw you, was at jeremy's going away >>>>>> party, you mocked me and refresh. thanks buddy. >>>>>> i have a super nice tasty design. and i'm going to push it before i >>>>>> head down to NC JavaScript n jQuery camp this weekend. Refresh Triangle and >>>>>> Refresh Richmond will be there. so will Phil Huggins and Paul Irish (of >>>>>> course i had to use @font-face) and i'm trying to get shit going. >>>>>> i'm thru weak ass meetings with nothing getting accomplished. i'm >>>>>> tired of waiting. >>>>>> dont talk to me about if done correctly....i've been planning this out >>>>>> for A YEAR. if you ever came to any meetings or were more involved then you >>>>>> might have a clue. >>>>>> this is a rambling, but i'm irate and over all of it. >>>>>> dont care about a mailing list. already have 40 some peeps want in, >>>>>> send them an email, get them together in april, they can decide on where >>>>>> this goes. >>>>>> as for professionalism, whatever. don't fucking lecture me. a whole >>>>>> list of dooshbags on that list that never answer to shit. sorry if it takes >>>>>> a curse word to get them to respond. thats their fault and their problem. >>>>>> bigger and brighter things. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Ryan Brunsvold < >>>>>> mail at ryanbrunsvold.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Albert, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So if you're working on an alternate Refresh site, will you be >>>>>>> sharing it with this Refresh group or are you starting your own independent >>>>>>> chapter? Bit confused on this point. Also confused as to your vitriol >>>>>>> comments. Regardless, you're correct on one point. We are indeed adults and >>>>>>> as adults we should have learned by now that extending common courtesy and >>>>>>> respect to other professionals is good manners and more often than not, good >>>>>>> business. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For my part, I'm in this to learn and where I can, teach. I don't >>>>>>> think I need to remind you or anyone affiliated with this group that this is >>>>>>> purely a volunteer effort. There's simply no reason for for this level of >>>>>>> venom. If the communication or operations of Refresh are creating such a >>>>>>> high level of stress that you feel the need to lash out at people, perhaps >>>>>>> you should take a break and consider what you wanted to accomplish when you >>>>>>> first got involved. No one's losing a job, or family, or friends over what >>>>>>> we do here. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Conversely, by organizing and promoting the best practices in what we >>>>>>> all do for a living, we have the chance to impact this region's approach to >>>>>>> web site development. If done correctly, what we do here will most >>>>>>> definitely have an impact (for the better) on our professional future. >>>>>>> That's the main reason I'm involved. If you, or anyone, in this group has >>>>>>> personal motivations that seek to disrupt or poison that goal, please let me >>>>>>> know as soon as possible as I have no intention of supporting anyone's >>>>>>> personal agenda. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:42 AM, James Albert Bowden < >>>>>>> jalbertbowden at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ryan - yes i am. >>>>>>>> at 2 dudes idk and never ever ever ever ever respond....hey at least >>>>>>>> it got a response. the only time i get a response is when i do something >>>>>>>> like that. >>>>>>>> furthermore, we're adults, if you can't handle "curse" words, that's >>>>>>>> your problem. when you get out of middle school, hit me up, refresh will be >>>>>>>> up before then. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> J. Albert Bowden II >>>>>>>> albert.bowden at residentsource.com >>>>>>>> jalbertbowden at gmail.com >>>>>>>> c.757.968.9133 >>>>>>>> w.757.351.7204 >>>>>>>> http://bowdenweb.com/ >>>>>>>> http://refreshhamptoads.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _ >>>>>>>> Wsuug mailing list >>>>>>>> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >>>>>>>> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _ >>>>>>> Wsuug mailing list >>>>>>> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >>>>>>> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> J. Albert Bowden II >>>>>> albert.bowden at residentsource.com >>>>>> jalbertbowden at gmail.com >>>>>> c.757.968.9133 >>>>>> w.757.351.7204 >>>>>> http://bowdenweb.com/ >>>>>> http://refreshhamptoads.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _ >>>>>> Wsuug mailing list >>>>>> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >>>>>> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _ >>>>> Wsuug mailing list >>>>> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >>>>> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> J. Albert Bowden II >>>> albert.bowden at residentsource.com >>>> jalbertbowden at gmail.com >>>> c.757.968.9133 >>>> w.757.351.7204 >>>> http://bowdenweb.com/ >>>> http://refreshhamptoads.org >>>> >>>> _ >>>> Wsuug mailing list >>>> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >>>> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >>>> >>>> >>>> _ >>>> Wsuug mailing list >>>> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >>>> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >>>> >>>> >>>> _ >>>> Wsuug mailing list >>>> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >>>> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> J. Albert Bowden II >>> albert.bowden at residentsource.com >>> jalbertbowden at gmail.com >>> c.757.968.9133 >>> w.757.351.7204 >>> http://bowdenweb.com/ >>> http://refreshhamptoads.org >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> J. Albert Bowden II >> albert.bowden at residentsource.com >> jalbertbowden at gmail.com >> c.757.968.9133 >> w.757.351.7204 >> http://bowdenweb.com/ >> http://refreshhamptoads.org >> >> >> _ >> Wsuug mailing list >> Wsuug at list.wsuug.org >> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug >> >> > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From howell.r at inkworkswell.com Thu Feb 18 15:01:26 2010 From: howell.r at inkworkswell.com (Reese) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:01:26 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] ADMIN: no flame wars on this list In-Reply-To: <7af352c91002181140m465de272w3686a033b92d302f@mail.gmail.com> References: <7af352c91002181140m465de272w3686a033b92d302f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B7D9C96.1020608@inkworkswell.com> Everyone, Adding "Oh look, a fight!" comments are not helpful. This is supposed to be a group of professionals, so disagreements should be taken offlist. We can make everyone and everything moderated, if we have to. We should not have to so before you post, ask yourself if you are calming the troubled waters or adding more gasoline to the flames. Reese From ajaswa at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 15:13:04 2010 From: ajaswa at gmail.com (Andrew Jaswa) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:13:04 -0700 Subject: [Wsuug] Moderation, Policies Message-ID: <1e76a9d61002181213t4b00f164qfc1d2fb4eec9bd52@mail.gmail.com> Greetings, Moderation: In light of the recent outbursts, Albert has been placed on moderation. This means he is still "active" on the list and when he chooses to post, his messages will need to be approved. This disciplinary action is indefinite. However, as he stated in his recent messages it appears that he won't be returning. I apologize for action not being taken sooner. Policies: When I started WSUUG in 2007 I toyed with the idea of creating a set policies by which WSUUGers should follow. However I figured that since we were all professionals we wouldn't need them. In hind-sight that was probably a mistake. Perhaps its something we want to craft for the future? I'm not sure how other groups handle things like these. I know Refresh Denver doesn't have one, but also doesn't have any chatter on their mailing list besides meeting announcements. I have more to say but that will be another email at another time. ============= Andrew Jaswa andrewjaswa.com 540.303.6423 From kcwalker at inkworkswell.com Thu Feb 18 19:08:52 2010 From: kcwalker at inkworkswell.com (Kelley Walker) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:08:52 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] New Web Page In-Reply-To: References: <424f9b531002031128o2816311q9cc12b722a004d81@mail.gmail.com> <4B6F5EC4.8040704@inkworkswell.com> <4B7C76EB.4000109@inkworkswell.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217191223.05722ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <4D5AC745-01E0-48B8-A2A6-E4DC385A348C@metaskills.net> <4B7C9A0B.1060705@inkworkswell.com> <4B7CA3C3.20802@inkworkswell.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20100218064552.058488c8@pop.inkworkswell.com> out of curiosity, where do people stand on the issue of Web Standards as being about giving the user maximum control? I think it's crucial, but I suppose there's a good debate to be had. For example, at work, a colleague (who is, I think, on the list) has done a couple of presentations on flexible, fluid, and elastic design. One argument is that fixed-width design gives the user the most control. If you take this position, then using background images to convey meaning, then you're not giving the user maximum control. In this interview, Russ Weakley indicates that he's come to think of designing for the web as about giving users control: "So, I had to unlearn the "total control" mentality and accept that users may view my sites in a variety of browsers and devices, with different monitor sizes, font sizes, colour settings, platforms and operating systems. I also had to accept that users had the right to control aspects of the layout - particularly font sizing." http://webstandardsgroup.org/features/russ-weakley.cfm From kcwalker at inkworkswell.com Thu Feb 18 19:09:29 2010 From: kcwalker at inkworkswell.com (Kelley Walker) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:09:29 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] New Web Page In-Reply-To: References: <424f9b531002031128o2816311q9cc12b722a004d81@mail.gmail.com> <4B6F5EC4.8040704@inkworkswell.com> <4B7C76EB.4000109@inkworkswell.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100217191223.05722ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <4D5AC745-01E0-48B8-A2A6-E4DC385A348C@metaskills.net> <4B7C9A0B.1060705@inkworkswell.com> <4B7CA3C3.20802@inkworkswell.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20100218070307.058488c8@pop.inkworkswell.com> I like this, from Russ Weakley's interview with John Allsop: http://webstandardsgroup.org/features/john-allsopp.cfm the claim about IR techniques being ugly. Is this still valid? or outdated? "[9] Russ: While we are on a roll, what do you think about the various image replacement methods? John: A solution in search of a problem, though many designers would disagree with me. Firstly, I think they are based on a fundamental misconception of the idea of separating content from its presentation. I have a little rule of thumb. If it conveys information, it is content. Or even simpler, if you read it, it is content. Now, we talk about the separation of content and its presentation, how this is a good thing (which I agree with), and how decorative images in HTML are bad because it puts presentation in the content of a document. But how about image replacement techniques? If you accept my premise that an image with text in it is content ('cause you read it) then you are putting content in your CSS, which surely is at least as bad as putting presentation in your HTML. But on less philosophical grounds it is bad in a number of practical ways. 1. IR techniques are not accessible. Full stop. In fact the hoo haa about how they are accessible because they work in some versions of Jaws underscores how little we really grok accessibility. So what if it works perfectly in every screen reader. What about people with other visual disabilities, who simply want to zoom up their text size a bit, or a lot? Tough. Repeat after me, IR techniques are not accessible. 2. IR techniques are ugly Now, the real point of IR techniques, as far as I can tell, is to have nicer looking pages. The font rendering in photoshop. GIMP (or whatever other tool) on which ever platform that the text is rendered on will be different from font renderings on many of the platforms your pages will be viewed on. This gives a dissonance between headings, and the other IR'ed text, and the main text of a page. I think that this dissonance (for example aliased text on many platforms, with anti aliased headings) is simply ugly. Similarly, an important aspect of page design in proportionality. Yet due to the different default screen resolutions, and to user control by font zooming, while with CSS and text you can maintain font proportionality using say ems, IR based designs won't scale. Your IR based "text" will remain the same size as your actual text increases or decreases in size. Again, simply ugly. 3. IR techniques make reusing, updating, restyling content much more difficult. Want new content? Got a spelling mistake? Then you need to create a new image, using precisely the same tools and settings as for the other text rendered as images, then change the HTML (to add an ID if it is new content), and the CSS. That's more work than changing font tags or even inserting IMG elements. OK, so what's good about IR techniques? You get to use more fonts, and they look smoother (unless you have a Mac, when font smoothing already works well). "But my client wants them" you cry. "I must please my client to feed my children." Your job, amongst other things, is to point out to your client, in the nicest possible way, when they are being moronic. You can put it more nicely than that of course." From kcwalker at inkworkswell.com Thu Feb 18 19:45:29 2010 From: kcwalker at inkworkswell.com (Kelley Walker) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:45:29 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] the 98/2 rule Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20100218191302.02db6550@pop.inkworkswell.com> zippo to do with standards but prompted by claims about non-participation, which I think need some reality injected into them. I've been on email lists since 1995. I ran a couple of them myself. As a person who likes to get into discussions and be involved, it astounded me to run my own list and discover that there were 300 subscribers but maybe only 30 regular posters. The same thing on my blog. How could it be that hundreds would show up every day to read and only 20-25 were regular commenters? I noticed the same numbers when I worked with other bloggers, building their sites or helping them with adwords/adsense campaigns. They'd have hundreds or thousands of readers, and a tiny sliver actually gave feedback and got into discussions in comment sections. I consulted other friends who ran email lists. They had the same results. Lots of subscribers, few participants. Like me, they were joiners and participators, people who like to get things done and be involved. We didn't understand the lurkers. But I learned something important: there were always lurkers; these were folks who simply like to lurk. They like to read and contemplate. Or maybe they have tons to say but not enough time. Or, when they do have the time, they worry they're chiming in too late. Sometimes they'd write off list or offblog to tell me what was on their mind and I'd be astounded at the detail they'd manage to pack away about the list or the blog. I eventually got to know people who like to lurk, and realized that, in their lurking, they followed everything that went on. They took sides in debates. They learned tons - even if it was only because some debate on a list made them formulate their ideas and reasons to themselves. IOW, the debates didn't make them change their minds, but it did help them think through their own minds and articulate their thoughts to themselves. On one notorious list from the nineties, a huge flame war and threat to the list (its potential closing) drew out dozens and dozens of people who wanted us to keep the list alive. They had followed it for years, knew all the players, their habits, interests, and obsessions. It was fascinating. All these people who followed our exchanges: it was as if it were their favorite soap opera. I don't know, but from that day on, I learned that some people like to observe, hold back, enjoy watching, and learn in their contemplation. Whatever you want to call it, it was, to me, a contribution. They might not join in, but if what they were doing was growing as people, as intellects, as professionals -- then it was a success, even if they preferred to hold back and observe. In the last few years, my experience in the '90s and early 00s has been confirmed by research. IT turns out that there's a 98/2 - 95/5 rule that governs email lists and blogs. It's like the infamous Pareto formulation that Clay Shirky took up in his analysis of the longtail and blogging - and Chris Anderson popularized in his book on the longtail. In a distribution of participation online, between 2 and 5% of the people who read or subscribe are going to participate regularly. The rest are going to lurk. By that measure, that we have 10 or so out of 30-50 regular participants means that we are a huge success! A similar rule follows for face-to-face participation and voluntarism - i.e., our monthly meetings. Life is precious. Collectivity and solidarity - these are rare. We have something special here - or should have. I feel blessed to go to our meetings and read this list and be surrounded by incredibly bright, interesting people I can learn from. I can only hope that I've been a person who has contributed as much as others have to my own growth in this profession. This list, that kind of growth: it's special -- even if people lurk. It is not weak sauce. Best, Kelley From ken at metaskills.net Thu Feb 18 19:53:20 2010 From: ken at metaskills.net (Ken Collins) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:53:20 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] the 98/2 rule In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20100218191302.02db6550@pop.inkworkswell.com> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20100218191302.02db6550@pop.inkworkswell.com> Message-ID: Very well said! Reminds me of my online marketing career. 3% conversion is considered a very good return :) - Ken From ken at metaskills.net Thu Feb 18 19:56:30 2010 From: ken at metaskills.net (Ken Collins) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:56:30 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] Cross Post 757rb/757objc "Synchronizing Core Data With Rails Web Applications" In-Reply-To: <1728AE3A-0ECB-4B4B-B1B3-08DAC22142D5@metaskills.net> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20100205180900.0447cec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100205181944.043ad7d8@pop.inkworkswell.com> <892C8935-3F06-4DA7-B83C-56240C59D768@metaskills.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20100205185420.04cd8dc8@pop.inkworkswell.com> <1728AE3A-0ECB-4B4B-B1B3-08DAC22142D5@metaskills.net> Message-ID: FYI, if you did not make the meetup, my slides are posted online: http://metaskills.net/2010/2/12/synchronizing-core-data-with-rails-3-0-0-pre I even got a shout out a few days ago from a pod cast big in ruby circle: http://ruby5.envylabs.com/ A final note about Ruby5, I'm seriously thinking about giving a talk around two things in the future that others may find interesting. 1) Rails3 and how it supports "pushes actually" UJS, HTML5, and other web standards. 2) HolyGrail - Functional Testing Your JavaScript - Cheers, Ken From howell.r at inkworkswell.com Thu Feb 18 20:02:01 2010 From: howell.r at inkworkswell.com (Reese) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:02:01 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] Cross Post 757rb/757objc "Synchronizing Core Data With Rails Web Applications" In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.2.0.2.20100205180900.0447cec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100205181944.043ad7d8@pop.inkworkswell.com> <892C8935-3F06-4DA7-B83C-56240C59D768@metaskills.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20100205185420.04cd8dc8@pop.inkworkswell.com> <1728AE3A-0ECB-4B4B-B1B3-08DAC22142D5@metaskills.net> Message-ID: <4B7DE309.7040809@inkworkswell.com> On 18-Feb-10 19:56, Ken Collins wrote: > A final note about Ruby5, I'm seriously thinking about giving a talk around two things in the future that others may find interesting. > > 1) Rails3 and how it supports "pushes actually" UJS, HTML5, and other web standards. > 2) HolyGrail - Functional Testing Your JavaScript Those sound interesting, please keep us advised. I'd like to hear both of them... Reese From mail at ryanbrunsvold.com Fri Feb 19 10:40:57 2010 From: mail at ryanbrunsvold.com (Ryan Brunsvold) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 10:40:57 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] HTML5 links Message-ID: <1499abcc1002190740ic7dd3d2re6de5e850276f5dd@mail.gmail.com> Hey guys, Carsonified's ThinkVitamin newsletter just arrived (highly recommend it if you're not currently receiving) and it features, among other things, a few good links on HTML5 experiments and implementation. Bruce Lawson on HTML5 - http://bit.ly/cfa89K HTML5 Demos and Examples - http://bit.ly/9cuniK HTML5 Cheeatsheet (via SmashingMag) - http://bit.ly/9qLOGC Enjoy, Ryan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kcwalker at inkworkswell.com Mon Feb 22 12:46:30 2010 From: kcwalker at inkworkswell.com (Kelley Walker) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 12:46:30 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] Soliciting design mocks for Refresh HR Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20100222123131.04bcedf0@pop.inkworkswell.com> We are soliciting new design mocks for Refresh HR which currently lives at http://www.refresh-hr.org. There are two contributions at the moment. If there is no interest expressed in adding more to the mix, we'll go ahead and vote on a design at our regularly scheduled meeting which is next Tuesday, March 2. Code: http://inkworkswell.net/refresh-mocks/refresh-hr-mock-code.jpg Fruit: http://inkworkswell.net/refresh-mocks/refresh-hr-mock.jpg Rules for the new design, in order to keep to emphasize Web standards and usability, reflecting the mission of Refreshing Cities and Refresh HR: -The design should be the basis for a liquid design as per Zoe Mickley Gillenwater at http://www.cssliquid.com/ -Graphics should be used for design purposes only. -Graphics should not be used to convey information. Kelley From qwerty823 at gmail.com Mon Feb 22 13:30:44 2010 From: qwerty823 at gmail.com (David McCormick) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:30:44 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] Soliciting design mocks for Refresh HR In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20100222123131.04bcedf0@pop.inkworkswell.com> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20100222123131.04bcedf0@pop.inkworkswell.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 12:46 PM, Kelley Walker wrote: > We are soliciting new design mocks for Refresh HR which currently lives at > http://www.refresh-hr.org. > > There are two contributions at the moment. If there is no interest > expressed in adding more to the mix, we'll go ahead and vote on a design at > our regularly scheduled meeting which is next Tuesday, March 2. > > Code: http://inkworkswell.net/refresh-mocks/refresh-hr-mock-code.jpg > Fruit: > http://inkworkswell.net/refresh-mocks/refresh-hr-mock.jpg > > Between the two, I like the the look and feel of the code one, but the layout of the fruit one. > Rules for the new design, in order to keep to emphasize Web standards and > usability, reflecting the mission of Refreshing Cities and Refresh HR: > > -The design should be the basis for a liquid design as per Zoe Mickley > Gillenwater at http://www.cssliquid.com/ > -Graphics should be used for design purposes only. > -Graphics should not be used to convey information. > There is nothing wrong with graphics conveying information (photos do this), but they shouldn't be the only means (ie, alt tags that describe what the photo conveys). On an off topic note. Anyone else find it ironic that a site called cssliquid has a fixed with layout promoting the use of liquid layouts? Pot? Kettle? Hello? > > > > Kelley > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From qwerty823 at gmail.com Mon Feb 22 13:36:22 2010 From: qwerty823 at gmail.com (David McCormick) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:36:22 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] Soliciting design mocks for Refresh HR In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.2.0.2.20100222123131.04bcedf0@pop.inkworkswell.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 1:30 PM, David McCormick wrote: > > > On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 12:46 PM, Kelley Walker > wrote: > > [SNIP] > > On an off topic note. Anyone else find it ironic that a site called > cssliquid has a fixed with layout promoting the use of liquid layouts? Pot? > Kettle? Hello? > > Ok, I take this back. The site is indeed liquid (although its hard to really notice unless you resize down quite a bit). It's not fixed width per se, but at higher resolutions it does indeed become fixed width. It does resize down reasonably well though. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kcwalker at inkworkswell.com Tue Feb 23 22:48:33 2010 From: kcwalker at inkworkswell.com (Kelley Walker) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:48:33 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] Soliciting design mocks for Refresh HR In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.2.0.2.20100222123131.04bcedf0@pop.inkworkswell.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20100223224027.04155b60@pop.inkworkswell.com> At 01:30 PM 2/22/2010, David McCormick wrote: >Between the two, I like the the look and feel of the code one, but the >layout of the fruit one. hmmm. I imagine the two could be combined. The layouts are kind of the same, though. Is it that you like the rounded corner boxes on the right? The way the fruit mock is left-aligned, rather than centered? the way the right rail abuts the top of the viewport as opposed to abutting the header? You can offlist me if you don't want to get into it all here. >There is nothing wrong with graphics conveying information (photos do >this), but they shouldn't be the only means (ie, alt tags that describe >what the photo conveys). good point. What I wanted to get away from was having images for text at all. thanks for the feedback. I had another wacky one with peas in a pod and some lime green but had to stop playing around - work called! Kelley From qwerty823 at gmail.com Wed Feb 24 01:05:46 2010 From: qwerty823 at gmail.com (David McCormick) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 01:05:46 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] Soliciting design mocks for Refresh HR In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20100223224027.04155b60@pop.inkworkswell.com> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20100222123131.04bcedf0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100223224027.04155b60@pop.inkworkswell.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 10:48 PM, Kelley Walker wrote: > At 01:30 PM 2/22/2010, David McCormick wrote: > > Between the two, I like the the look and feel of the code one, but the >> layout of the fruit one. >> > > hmmm. I imagine the two could be combined. The layouts are kind of the > same, though. Is it that you like the rounded corner boxes on the right? The > way the fruit mock is left-aligned, rather than centered? the way the right > rail abuts the top of the viewport as opposed to abutting the header? > > You can offlist me if you don't want to get into it all here. > > Here is fine. Hopefully it will spur some discussion. I like the cooler colors, the "code" style of the first one. I like the layout of the second one, but the warmer colors and fruit make me feel like I'm ordering a 'smoothie'. For me, when I first looked at the "code" mock, I had to do a double take to find the navigation (it wasn't that hard, just didnt "stand out"). When I come to a site, I want to be able to quickly find what I need, so being able to scan the page quickly (headings stand out), or figure out where to navigate to, are key elements for me. Then again, Im just a developer, and stick figures and solid boxes are about the extent of my design abilities (just kidding, I'm probably a little bit better then that). If I had to pick one or the other, I'd go with the fruit, only because I like the layout better. However, I think a combination of the two would be better, IMHO. I'd love to see other designs as well. > > There is nothing wrong with graphics conveying information (photos do >> this), but they shouldn't be the only means (ie, alt tags that describe what >> the photo conveys). >> > > good point. What I wanted to get away from was having images for text at > all. > > thanks for the feedback. I had another wacky one with peas in a pod and > some lime green but had to stop playing around - work called! > > > Kelley > > _ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kcwalker at inkworkswell.com Wed Feb 24 06:38:17 2010 From: kcwalker at inkworkswell.com (Kelley Walker) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 06:38:17 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] Soliciting design mocks for Refresh HR In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.2.0.2.20100222123131.04bcedf0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100223224027.04155b60@pop.inkworkswell.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20100224063452.04626ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> At 01:05 AM 2/24/2010, David McCormick wrote: >Here is fine. Hopefully it will spur some discussion. > >I like the cooler colors, the "code" style of the first one. I like the >layout of the second one, but the warmer colors and fruit make me feel >like I'm ordering a 'smoothie'. > >For me, when I first looked at the "code" mock, I had to do a double take >to find the navigation (it wasn't that hard, just didnt "stand out"). When >I come to a site, I want to be able to quickly find what I need, so being >able to scan the page quickly (headings stand out), or figure out where to >navigate to, are key elements for me. ahhh. you are write about the nav. i didn't like it, but was trying to stick with sparse, which was the theme - at least to me. to be very spare. >Then again, Im just a developer, and stick figures and solid boxes are >about the extent of my design abilities (just kidding, I'm probably a >little bit better then that). :) >If I had to pick one or the other, I'd go with the fruit, only because I >like the layout better. However, I think a combination of the two would be >better, IMHO. > >I'd love to see other designs as well. me too! I'm not a professional and slapped those together in a few hours. I'd like to lean on the three pros I work with, but I suspect they are way to busy for pro bono work these days. (hint hint at LF, PB, and DG!) There's no rush, though I would like to know if someone or three is interested before the next meeting. IOW, all I was hoping to hear was that someone was willing to commit to another design before next Tuesday. Kelley From jz at frimmin.com Thu Feb 25 01:02:53 2010 From: jz at frimmin.com (Jon Zuck) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 01:02:53 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] Soliciting design mocks for Refresh HR In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20100224063452.04626ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20100222123131.04bcedf0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100223224027.04155b60@pop.inkworkswell.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100224063452.04626ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> Message-ID: <64f12f1d1002242202g1583c9b7x3ea488433f430973@mail.gmail.com> Just curious, why liquid? I've built both liquid and non. Really prefer "flex" styling myself al a ALA's Switchy McLayout. I don't see liquidity as a virtue in itself... Line lengths can become quite unwieldly on wide monitors; of course, we're catering to a sophisticated clientele, but really, why liquid? jon On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 6:38 AM, Kelley Walker wrote: > At 01:05 AM 2/24/2010, David McCormick wrote: > > Here is fine. Hopefully it will spur some discussion. >> >> I like the cooler colors, the "code" style of the first one. I like the >> layout of the second one, but the warmer colors and fruit make me feel like >> I'm ordering a 'smoothie'. >> >> For me, when I first looked at the "code" mock, I had to do a double take >> to find the navigation (it wasn't that hard, just didnt "stand out"). When I >> come to a site, I want to be able to quickly find what I need, so being able >> to scan the page quickly (headings stand out), or figure out where to >> navigate to, are key elements for me. >> > > > ahhh. you are write about the nav. i didn't like it, but was trying to > stick with sparse, which was the theme - at least to me. to be very spare. > > > > Then again, Im just a developer, and stick figures and solid boxes are >> about the extent of my design abilities (just kidding, I'm probably a >> little bit better then that). >> > > > :) > > > If I had to pick one or the other, I'd go with the fruit, only because I >> like the layout better. However, I think a combination of the two would be >> better, IMHO. >> >> I'd love to see other designs as well. >> > > > me too! I'm not a professional and slapped those together in a few hours. > I'd like to lean on the three pros I work with, but I suspect they are way > to busy for pro bono work these days. (hint hint at LF, PB, and DG!) > > There's no rush, though I would like to know if someone or three is > interested before the next meeting. IOW, all I was hoping to hear was that > someone was willing to commit to another design before next Tuesday. > > > Kelley > _________________________ > Wsuug mailing list > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug > -- Jon http://www.frimmin.com http://www.wildwebweaving.com http://bonege.com/ "Just sit there right now. Don't do a thing. Just rest. For your separation from God is the hardest work in the world." ~Hafiz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kcwalker at inkworkswell.com Thu Feb 25 02:01:43 2010 From: kcwalker at inkworkswell.com (Kelley Walker) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 02:01:43 -0500 Subject: [Wsuug] Soliciting design mocks for Refresh HR In-Reply-To: <64f12f1d1002242202g1583c9b7x3ea488433f430973@mail.gmail.co m> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20100222123131.04bcedf0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100223224027.04155b60@pop.inkworkswell.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20100224063452.04626ec0@pop.inkworkswell.com> <64f12f1d1002242202g1583c9b7x3ea488433f430973@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20100225013940.02f0be60@pop.inkworkswell.com> At 01:02 AM 2/25/2010, Jon Zuck wrote: >Just curious, why liquid? I've built both liquid and non. Really prefer >"flex" styling myself al a ALA's Switchy McLayout. I don't see liquidity >as a virtue in itself... Line lengths can become quite unwieldly on wide >monitors; of course, we're catering to a sophisticated clientele, but >really, why liquid? > >jon I used the term liquid as Zoe describes, which is why I pointed to her site: >No Resolution exists to showcase those websites that have succeeded at >liquid design, and serve as a resource to those exploring it. No >Resolution includes layouts that are purely liquid (also called fluid), >mixed liquid and fixed, elastic, and progressive. You can learn more about >liquid design in the Resources section. > >Disclaimer > >Liquid layouts are great. This is not to say that fixed width layouts are >bad. They are just too common. "No Resolution" is not a place to defend or >attack liquid or fixed layouts; there are enough places for that kind of >discussion. I come from a print background, myself, so I have no problems with fixed designs and I certainly understand line-lengths and readability issues. Really long line lengths, for instance, give me a headache. I was getting merely at the standards issue which, as far as I'm concerned, does tend to side to the user having maximum control. I asked about this in a previous email, so if you'd like to expound on that topic I'd love to hear. I think there's a lot of room for good discussion. One other reason I care: I'm very good friends with a gentleman in his 70s. He has to set his font to 72px. Having listened to him over the years as his eyesight has gotten worse and worse, I've come to see the Web from the POV of people like him. He's not a Web sophisticate and doesn't have the first idea how to disable CSS and is only now, because he must, explore using assistive technologies. But I've listened to him complain, for a couple of years now, how awful it is to try to read articles and view sites people recommend. Yes, people have tried to help him learn to do things differently, to make it easier, but the disease - losing your eyesight as badly as he has -- has been debilitating and depressing for an intellectual who's spent his life reading, books and online. So part of the resistance is, of course, anger and depression Anyway, probably oversharing my friend's trials and tribulations. Kelley From ajaswa at gmail.com Fri Feb 26 22:06:13 2010 From: ajaswa at gmail.com (Andrew Jaswa) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 20:06:13 -0700 Subject: [Wsuug] Current state of things Message-ID: <1e76a9d61002261906n272cf0b5s528084d7f00846bc@mail.gmail.com> As of this evening, things were brought to my attention that this is no longer the group that I started or even has carried on what I intended . I will not have the name of WSUUG treated this way. So I'm shutting down the list and I would appreciate that NOTHING be carried out under the WSUUG name. If you want to splinter off so be it. Do what you will, but please do not do it under this name. Thanks, Andrew ============= Andrew Jaswa andrewjaswa.com