[Wsuug] Good news!

Wed Feb 20 23:08:11 EST 2008

I agree with Zach for the most part... There's quirks in IE7, but nothing
really bad... mainly lack of support for some of the more avant-garde CSS...
and remember, NO one supports the really avant-garde CSS... that was the
whole reason CSS 2.1 toned down CSS 2.0.

My main problem is that since all VWS/PSN sites are in Quirks mode, we're
essentially working with subtle differences of a *de facto* IE5.5, which IE
6 and 7 emulate to greater and lesser degrees in Quirks.

I read Jeff Zeldman's
<http://www.alistapart.com/articles/minorthreat>article in ALA, and I
think he's on track... he has a far more positive
appraisal of the situation than Eric Meyer does, and I think he's looking at
a bigger picture. Essentially, for those developers who DON'T activate the
newer rendering engines, IE7 will be the last IE rendering -- and therefore,
a known, unchanging quantity. For those who do, and have the freedom to code
new sites that aren't dependent upon the source code of that 900 other sites
share, IE8 will stand in the brotherhood of compliant browsers. It will be
interesting.

jon

On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 4:06 PM, Zach Young <young.zach at gmail.com> wrote:

> I think it would've mattered more a few years ago before IE7. The IEs
> seem to be going in a better direction. I'd be in favor of having a
> little message if the user had IE6 or Netscape (we actually had a user
> who was using an old Netscape complain yesterday that a site was
> showing up wierd) or something else old.
>
> IE7 isn't quite up to par, but its close enough that I wouldn't
> complain about it too much.
>
> zpy
>
> On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 1:42 PM, Joshua McDonald <josh at thisisgrow.com>
> wrote:
> > For point #1 ... that's the point.  I don't think that people learning
> that
> > their current browser is "holding them back" or compromising their
> security
> > would be a bad thing.  I don't think its the same as the "this site best
> > viewed in ..." because this is more of a pro-active "education"
> campaign,
> > not a I'm too lazy to make my site work outside of these boundaries".
> >
> > As for point 2, it wouldn't be a specific browser...pointing them
> towards
> > multiple browsers is ideal...  I'll attach a 10 minute mock-up of what I
> was
> > thinking ... this would be one example, at its size, that would be shown
> in
> > a "lightbox" style display ... it would be the most aggressive of the
> > display options and wouldn't expect commercial sites to use it...  Other
> > options would be as simple as smaller sidebar pieces, inline permanent
> > "sticky" top-post blog posts...etc.  The display/deployment options
> would be
> > varied, from very aggressive, like attached, to very passive, like a
> simple
> > side-bar spot (similar to any other ad)
> >
> > On that note, I don't see it as advertising...it's educating...fine line
> > maybe, but I see it.
> >
> > --josh
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Ryan Brunsvold
> > <ryan.brunsvold at forrent.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I think the  approach you're suggesting is problematic for two
> reasons:
> > >
> > >
> > > 1.) You are implying to the user that their current behaviour is
> somehow
> > flawed, or at the minimum naive. Posting a message asking users to
> switch
> > could potentially have the same affect as the old "This site best viewed
> in
> > IE6 at 1024x768...." messages that once plagued our industry.
> > >
> > >
> > > 2.) Advertising a specific browser could be read as just that.
> > Advertising. I think it might be too easy for a user to read any message
> as
> > a sales pitch rather than a helpful suggestion.
> > >
> > >
> > > I do agree that efforts need to be made to actively advocate the
> browsing
> > experience that is most flexible and functional for the user. I'm just
> not
> > sure that interrupting or amending the flow of an experience is the best
> > route to take. Perhaps the more preferable direction might be to
> advocate FF
> > or Safari through unique site content (blog posts, articles, etc...). At
> > least this way it would be easier for the user to digest and hopefully
> learn
> > all the benefits of one browser over another.
> > >
> > >
> > > </two cents>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Feb 20, 2008, at 11:03 AM, Joshua McDonald wrote:
> > >
> > > Actually, read what I said (I'm not saying that in the "you can't
> read"
> > tone...damn these internets and their lack of inflection)
> > >
> > > I said show a message.  Not disable the site.  That would never work,
> for
> > the reasons you said.  But showing a "readable" but non "intrusive"
> message
> > would do wonders.  Don't make people use/not use one browser, but show
> them
> > that there are alternatives.  Most people just don't know that one
> browser
> > provides a better, more secure internet experience over another...
> > >
> > > I'm actually working on a campaign like this...a grassroots "switch"
> > campaign...I don't think the outcome would be huge, but I am curious to
> see
> > what just "informing" people on medium sized sites would do for the
> > awareness.
> > >
> > > -josh
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 10:58 AM, Andrew Jaswa <ajaswa at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > On Feb 19, 2008 10:51 AM, Joshua McDonald <josh at thisisgrow.com>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > They will never get it right.  Not with windows, not with IE.
> > > >
> > > > Bitter?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > What needs to happen, is developers "join up" and stand up for our
> > > > > standards.
> > > >
> > > > We are. Thats what half this group is about, the other half is
> > > > providing the best experience to our users.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Big sites (eBay, MySpace, FaceBook, and major retail sites....etc)
> > should
> > > > > team up and show a simple message.
> > > >
> > > > Umm... I have worked with some rather large sites and worked with
> > > > folks who work on other large sites. We CANNOT stop support for 80+%
> > > > (or which ever number you want) of our visitors. There is too much
> at
> > > > stake (both in traffic and revenue). As web developers it is our job
> > > > to provide the best experience to our users no matter what they
> prefer
> > > > as their browser.
> > > >
> > > > This would be like going to a car wash and them turning me away
> > > > because I drive a Honda. They'll let in Ford's, Chevy's and any
> other
> > > > car you want to throw in there. But not me because I drive a Honda.
> So
> > > > what will I end up doing? I'll go down the street and go to some
> place
> > > > that will let me in. There are more then enough websites out there
> > > > where if they won't let me in with my browser of choice I'll move on
> > > > to something similar.
> > > >
> > > > You cannot discriminate on personal preference or browser loyalty.
> As
> > > > much as I would like to kick IE and everything that comes from it to
> > > > the curb, I can't. To many people use it, while Firefox has made
> great
> > > > inroads into taking some of that market share away, IE is here to
> > > > stay.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > "You are viewing this site in a non standards-compliant browser.
> > Please
> > > > > install a standards compliant browser to continue" and link to FF,
> > Safari,
> > > > > Opera (ugh...), etc...
> > > >
> > > > Don't forget to include IE7 in there heh...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > If just a handfull of the biggest sites do it, MS's hand will be
> > > > > forced...and they might actually get it right.
> > > >
> > > > Firefox, Opera and Safari already have with taking the market share
> > > > from an old browser.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Andrew
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wsuug mailing list
> > > > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org
> > > > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Joshua McDonald
> > > Grow Interactive
> > > www.thisisgrow.com
> > > 757-248-5274
> > > 757-248-5275 (f)
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wsuug mailing list
> > > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org
> > > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug
> > >
> > >
> > > Ryan Brunsvold
> > > UI Developer
> > > For Rent Media Solutions
> > > 757.351.7883
> > > ryan.brunsvold at forrent.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wsuug mailing list
> > > Wsuug at list.wsuug.org
> > > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Joshua McDonald
> > Grow Interactive
> > www.thisisgrow.com
> > 757-248-5274
> > 757-248-5275 (f)
> > _______________________________________________
> >  Wsuug mailing list
> >  Wsuug at list.wsuug.org
> >  http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/wsuug
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
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>

-- 
Jon

http://www.frimmin.com
http://www.wildwebweaving.com
http://esperantohr.wordpress.com/

"Just sit there right now. Don't do a thing. Just rest. For your separation
from God is the hardest work in the world."
~Hafiz
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