[Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson.)

[Timothy Butler]

>>
>> Actually, Baptists historically also come out of the Catholic Church,
>> primarily through England, through the Puritans.
>
> No that is NOT correct. Sorry. Baptist were before the catholic  
> church ever was. Baptists were in the first church at Jerusalem.  
> Constantine started the catholic church, hundreds of years after  
> Christ started His church.

	Most historians would disgree with you. Here's a Baptist site that  
offers the more standard history:
	http://www.baptisthistory.org/baptistbeginnings.htm

	(Check out some good Church History books that are not partisan to a  
particular denomination if you'd like to confirm what I'm saying.)

	One would have a very hard time proving baptists existed in Jerusalem  
-- there is no historical record to suggest that, to the best of my  
knowledge. On extant evidence, one could make as compelling (if not  
more compelling) argument of a primitive Presbyterian church. But, I  
don't recommend doing it. :-)

>
>> As to the Church, the catholic (as in universal church) seems to be
>> clearly Biblical. It is related to the idea of the Bride of Christ --
>> the communion of all believers.
>
> How could it be Biblical, when it wasn't started until hundreds of  
> years after Christ started His church?


	Because the catholic church was not formed by Constantine. It was  
clearly forming even in late New Testament times, as the later books  
in the canon seem to potentially suggest. Certainly, by the end of the  
first century, there were bishops in a fairly modern sense. True,  
Catholic (big "c") formed in the following centuries, but the it was a  
relatively organic progression. Certainly, one would have a hard time  
saying Clement of Rome (1st century) was not at all catholic, but  
Athanasius or Ambrose were...

	Also note Scripture that arguably speak of the church not merely  
regionally:

	1.) Acts 20.28.
	2.) 1 Cor. 10.32
	3.) 1 Cor. 12.28 (seems very clear here)
	4.) 1 Cor. 15.9, Gal 1.13 (even clearer, on Paul's persecution of the  
Church)
	5.) Eph. 3.10, 3.21, 5.27, 32 (esp. 5.27, 32)
	6.) Col. 1.18
	-etc-
	
	Remember catholic means merely universal. To say one is not  
"catholic" in that sense is to say one is not part of the universal  
body of believers, the Bride of Christ.

	-Tim

PS: I'm Presbyterian, not Catholic, so I am only a small "c" catholic.