From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Tue Dec 1 18:51:13 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 18:51:13 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Hebrews 10:19-39 (Wednesday) Message-ID: <4B15ABF1.1060804@bibleseven.com> *Hebrews 10:19-39 (Wednesday)* *?Commentary* The text encourages believers to draw near to God because our faith is in the One Who opened the way to Him and Who has made us spiritually-pure. We are exhorted to "spur one another on to love and good works ... not abandoning our own meetings" [Note: This necessarily requires that we be intentional about what we say and do - in order to both present a positive role model and effectively teach and encourage others. There is also an implication that believers were choosing to gather with non-believers instead of gathering with believers, for reasons not clear in the text, but the need to gather-together is emphasized again here as elsewhere in the NT. God repeats messages He wants us not to miss.] The text then warns those who remain in rebellion, through unrepentant sin, despite receiving the Word of truth. It reminds the reader of the OT consequences of rebellion against "the law of Moses", summarizing "It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God." The believers are cautioned to remember that they endured troubles early on in their faith, and that more endurance may be required of them, but despite their losses "... because you knew that you certainly had a better and lasting possession." Hebrews 10 concludes with a contrast between those who have heard the Word yet failed to respond and live with perseverance through faith "... if he shrinks back, I take no pleasure in him" versus those who heard and responded and persevered "But we are not among those who shrink back and thus perish, but are among those who have faith and preserve their souls." *Interaction* *Consider*? the ?contrast between those who have heard the Word yet failed to respond and live with perseverance through faith "... if he shrinks back, I take no pleasure in him" versus those who heard and responded and persevered "But we are not among those who shrink back and thus perish, but are among those who have faith and preserve their souls." *Discuss* ?some practical ways ?to "spur one another on to love and good works ... not abandoning our own meetings". *Reflect* upon the consequences to those who do not live under the grace of the salvation of Christ - they remain in slavery to sin and under the judgment of law-without-mercy of the OT. *Share* a practical example of being intentional about what we say and do - in order to both present a positive role model and effectively teach and encourage others. *Truth in Action* Today I am choosing to examining my faithfulness in spurring "one another on to love and good works ... not abandoning our own meetings" and in being intentional about what we say and do - in order to both present a positive role model and effectively teach and encourage others. Where I find a lapse in my faithfulness to the Word of God I will ask the Holy Spirit to find me a willing follower of His leading to a more righteous place in my daily walk. *Be Specific* ______________________________________ ------------------------------------ Thursday's text will be: Hebrews 11 ------------------------------------ -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bible Commentary & Discussion Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional B7Studies: http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From fmiller at lightlink.com Tue Dec 1 20:24:51 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 20:24:51 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Sweet salutation - Grandson's greeting Message-ID: <4B15C1E3.7030209@lightlink.com> >From WMD.com A three-year-old had been told several times to get ready for bed. The last time his mom told him, she was very insistent. His response was, "Yes, Sir!" Since he was talking to his mother, it was not expected of him to call her "Sir." "You would say, 'Yes Sir,' to a man, and since I am a lady, and you would say, 'Yes Ma'am,' to me," his mom said. To quiz him on his lesson, she then asked, "What would you say to Daddy?" "Yes, Sir!" was the reply. "Then what would you say to Mama?" "Yes, Ma'am!" he proudly answered. "Good boy! Now what would you say to Grandma?" He lit up and said, "Can I have a cookie?" -- "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." --George Washington From fmiller at lightlink.com Tue Dec 1 21:19:31 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 21:19:31 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] GREAT idea!! Message-ID: <4B15CEB3.3080205@lightlink.com> When doing your Christmas cards this year, take one card and send it to this address. If we pass this on and everyone sends one card, think of how many cards these wonderful special people who have sacrificed so much would get. When you are making out your Christmas card list this year, please include the following: A Recovering American Soldier c/o Walter Reed Army Medical Center 6900 Georgia Avenue, NW Washington, D.C. 20307-5001 Thanks! -- "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." --George Washington -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fmiller at lightlink.com Wed Dec 2 01:01:14 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 01:01:14 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Are open source developers suffering? Message-ID: <4B1602AA.3070007@lightlink.com> http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/?p=5366&tag=nl.e589 -- "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." --George Washington -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From l4c at thelinuxlink.net Wed Dec 2 07:50:33 2009 From: l4c at thelinuxlink.net (l4c) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 07:50:33 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Shout Merry Christmas Message-ID: <4B166299.2050203@thelinuxlink.net> Twas the month before Christmas When all through our land, Not a Christian was praying Nor taking a stand. For the PC Police had taken away The reason for Christmas - no one could say. The children were told by their schools not to sing, About Shepherds and Wise Men and Angels and things. It might hurt people's feelings, the teachers would say December 25th is just a Holiday . Yet the shoppers were ready with cash, checks and credit Pushing folks to the floor in order to get it! CDs from Madonna, an X BOX, an I-pod Something was changing, something quite odd! Retailers promoted Ramadan and Kwanzaa In hopes to sell books by Franken & Fonda. At Targets were hanging their trees upside down At Lowe's the word Christmas was nowhere to be found. At K-Mart and Staples and Penny's and Sears You won't hear the word Christmas; it won't touch your ears. Inclusive, sensitive, Di-ver-si-ty Are the words that were used to intimidate me. Now Daschle, Now Darden, Now Sharpton, Wolf Blitzen On Boxer, on Rather, on Kerry, on Clinton ! At the top of the Senate, there arose such a clatter To eliminate Jesus, in all public matter. And we spoke not a word, as they took our faith Forbidden to speak of salvation and grace The true Gift of Christmas was exchanged and discarded The reason for the season was stopped before it started. So as you celebrate 'Winter Break' under your 'Dream Tree' Sipping your Starbucks, just listen to me. Choose your words carefully, choose what you say Shout MERRY CHRISTMAS , not Happy Holidays ! From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Wed Dec 2 18:55:24 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 18:55:24 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Hebrews 11 (Thursday) Message-ID: <4B16FE6C.1090008@bibleseven.com> *Hebrews 11 (Thursday)* *?Commentary* Hebrews challenges the reader with a powerful statement "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see." The text then sets out to explain and "prove" this through the lives of OT persons. In the OT "... people of old received God's commendation". A prime example is Abraham in Genesis 15:6 "Abraham believed the Lord, and the Lord considered his response of faith proof of genuine loyalty." "... we understand that the worlds were set in order at God's command, so that the visible has its origin in the invisible. "Now without faith it is impossible to please Him, for the one who approaches God must believe that He exists and that he rewards those who seek Him." "By faith Abel ..." "By faith Enoch ..." "By faith Noah ..." "By faith Abraham ..." "These all died in faith without receiving the things promised, but they saw them in the distance and welcomed them and acknowledged that they were strangers and foreigners on the earth ... they were seeking a homeland ... a heavenly one" "By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning the future." "By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph and worshiped as he leaned on his staff. By faith Joseph, at the end of his life, mentioned the exodus of the sons of Israel and gave instructions about his burial." [Note: Joseph prophesied the Exodus and that his bones should travel with his people to the Promised Land.] Hebrews 11 reports the faith that caused Moses' parents to hide him without fear of Pharaoh, Moses to leave Pharaoh for God's people, and on through the generations leaders of faith; Joshua, Rahab, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, and Samuel. It also describes the deprivation and suffering and death of the faithful over time. Hebrews 11 concludes "For God had provided something better for us, so that they would be made perfect together with us." *Interaction* *Consider* the importance to God of a genuine faith. *Discuss* the way that genuine faith empowered these OT persons to be used mightily of God. *Reflect* upon the way that these people of faith recognized the dividing line of value between the things of this temporary world and the vastly more valuable things of the promise of God in Heaven. *Share* an example of a difficult choice you have made, knowing that the consequences would likely not be to your temporary benefit here on earth, but that based on faith you knew to be right before God. *Truth in Action* ?Today I am choosing to study the OT people of faith and to ask the Holy Spirit to show me one place in my life where I may apply the same faith to a place where I have placed worldly comfort or convenience above faithfulness to God's call. *Be Specific* ________________________________________ ---------------------------------- Friday's text will be: ?Hebrews 12 ---------------------------------- -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Thu Dec 3 19:45:02 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 19:45:02 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=ADHebrews_12_=28Friday=29?= Message-ID: <4B185B8E.7010408@bibleseven.com> *?Hebrews 12 (Friday)* *?Commentary* "... we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses ... we must get rid of every weight and the sin that clings so closely, and run with endurance the race set out for us, keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus" "You have not yet resisted to the point of bloodshed in your struggle against sin. Endure your suffering as discipline; God is treating you as sons." "But if you do not experience discipline, something all sons have shared in, then you are illegitimate and are not sons." [Note: It is often considered a test of our value to God that the enemy feels threatened enough to divert resource to attack us, but here it is the discipline of the Lord which defines us as His and therefore worthy of re-direction when we drift toward sin, though it is sometimes the case that the Lord will allow the enemy as a tool of His discipline of us.] "Pursue peace with everyone, and holiness, for without it no one will see the Lord." [Note: This does not intend to promote pacifism in the face of a violent threat, it is about relationships and about our half of the relationship, we cannot control the actions of another - though we can model peace and not respond in-kind to those who are not acting in a peaceful manner. Also, the last phrase refers to us, that is that "no one will see the Lord" in us if we do not seek peace and holiness in our daily walk.] "See that no one comes short of the grace of God, that no one be like a bitter root springing up and causing trouble, and through him many become defiled." [Note: The NET translator's notes link this to Deut. 29:17 which refers to someone with a self-serving conditional relationship with God - which is not an acceptable relationship at all and will poison them and others around them.] And see to it that no one becomes an immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. For you have not come to something that can be touched [as in the Exodus 19:12-13 experience of Moses on the mountain] ... But you have come to Mount Zion ..." [Note: The contrast here is between a law-based relationship and an intimate relationship, the first driven by fear-based obedience, the latter on love-based awe and obligation.] "I will once more shake not only the earth but heaven too. Now this phrase "once more" indicates the removal of what is shaken, that is, of created things, so that what is unshaken will remain." [Note: God, through Jesus, brings us into the "unshakable kingdom" of eternity with Him, He then will obliterate everything that was created and rendered sinful through the twin rebellions of the enemy and of Adam and Eve. Nothing will remain.] "... let us give thanks, and through this let us offer worship pleasing to God in devotion and awe." *?Interaction* *Consider* that God expects us to resist sin "... to the point of bloodshed", not the blood of others but our own. God also expects us to have an unconditional relationship with Him, for if we harbor selfish motives we will become bitter toward Him when discipline comes and will spread that bitterness. *Discuss* practical ways to "Pursue peace with everyone, and holiness, for without it no one will see the Lord." - intentionally avoiding conflict by being vessels of His peace, and intentionally combining a peaceful attitude with a holy walk so that people may see Christ in us and want what we have. *Reflect* upon the return of God to judge the world and to obliterate everything of earth and heaven that is not part of His eternal perfect kingdom. This includes not only the physical world but also unsaved humans and the rebellious angels who followed the enemy. *Share* examples of your struggle to resist sin and/or the fruits of a good witness for Christ that resulted from seeking peace and holiness. *Truth in Action* Today I am choosing to resist sin and seek peace and holiness so that the fruits of a good witness for Christ will make it possible for the Holy Spirit to use me to draw someone nearer to a decision to surrender to Him and thus to share in the joy of my salvation. I will share the results of this with at least one other believer so that they may be encouraged to do the same. *Be Specific* _______________________________________ ----------------------------------- Saturdays text will be: ?Hebrews 13 ----------------------------------- -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From pjvasquez at baeyogin.com Fri Dec 4 14:12:47 2009 From: pjvasquez at baeyogin.com (Peter J. Vasquez Sr.) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 13:12:47 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] GREAT idea!! In-Reply-To: <4B15CEB3.3080205@lightlink.com> References: <4B15CEB3.3080205@lightlink.com> Message-ID: <9f5542130912041112l1ee5a26br1430fc1376cd6231@mail.gmail.com> http://www.snopes.com/politics/christmas/walterreed.asp Great idea, nonetheless. On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 8:19 PM, Fred A. Miller wrote: > When doing your Christmas cards this year, take one card and send > it to this address. ?If we pass this on and everyone sends one card, > think of how many cards these wonderful special people who have > sacrificed so much would get.? When you are making out your > Christmas card list this year, please include the following: > > ? ? ? ? A Recovering American Soldier > ? ? ? ? c/o Walter Reed Army Medical Center > ? ? ? ? 6900 Georgia Avenue, NW > ? ? ? ? Washington, D.C. 20307-5001 > > Thanks! > > -- > "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, > but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to > maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt > to abuse them, which would include their own government." > --George Washington > > _______________________________________________ > Linux4christians mailing list > Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians > > From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Fri Dec 4 20:13:27 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 20:13:27 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] =?utf-8?b?4oCtSGVicmV3cyAxMyAoU2F0dXJkYXkp?= Message-ID: <4B19B3B7.6090206@bibleseven.com> *?Hebrews 13 (Saturday)* *?Commentary* Hebrews 13 begins with a list of instructions: "Brotherly love must continue." "Do not neglect hospitality, because through it some have entertained angels without knowing it." "Remember those in prison as though you were in prison with them ..." "Remember ... those ill-treated as though you too felt their torment." Marriage must be honored among all ..." "... the marriage bed kept undefiled, for God will judge sexually immoral people and adulterers." "Your conduct must be free of the love of money and you must be content with what you have ..." "Remember your leaders who spoke God's message to you; reflect on the outcome of their lives and imitate their faith." "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever! Do not be carried away by all sorts of strange teachings." The text reminds us that rituals "... have never benefited those who participated in them." "... Jesus ... suffered outside the camp." [Note: According to the ancient OT regulations one was put out of the camp if ritually unclean, and if they were traveling and did not return in time to be ritually prepared they were required to wait outside and miss the cleansing rituals. Jesus was outside of the traditions of the religious leaders.] "... do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for god is pleased with such sacrifices." "Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls and will give account for their work. Let them do this with joy and not with complaints, for this would be no advantage for you." As was common to the NT books Hebrews concludes with a prayer/benediction "Now may the God of peace who by the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep, our Lord Jesus Christ, equip you with every good thing to do His will, working in us [or working together with us or working in all of us] what is pleasing before Him through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever. Amen." A sort of postscript asks that they "... bear with my message of exhortation" as it was somewhat more terse than the author desired. It also notes the release of Timothy and sends greetings from "Those in Italy ... to all your leaders and all the saints." Finally concluding "Grace be with you all." *Interaction* *Consider* the list of instructions at the beginning of Chapter 13. *Discuss* practical ways to "... do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for god is pleased with such sacrifices." *Reflect* upon "Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls and will give account for their work. Let them do this with joy and not with complaints, for this would be no advantage for you." *Share* an example of "strange teachings" as referenced in this phrase "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever! Do not be carried away by all sorts of strange teachings." *Truth in Action* Today I am ?committing to ?the list of instructions at the beginning of Chapter 13. I agree to partner with the Holy Spirit in assessing where I need to make changes to get right with the Word of God - and to ask at least one other believer to pray in agreement and to assist with accountability so that I meet the goals I set for greater spiritual maturity. Be Specific _________________________________________ ------------------------------------ Sunday's text will be: James 1:1-18 ------------------------------------ -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From fmiller at lightlink.com Fri Dec 4 21:25:31 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 21:25:31 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] GREAT idea!! In-Reply-To: <9f5542130912041112l1ee5a26br1430fc1376cd6231@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B15CEB3.3080205@lightlink.com> <9f5542130912041112l1ee5a26br1430fc1376cd6231@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B19C49B.2040001@lightlink.com> On 12/04/2009 02:12 PM, Peter J. Vasquez Sr. wrote: > http://www.snopes.com/politics/christmas/walterreed.asp > > Great idea, nonetheless. > Yes.....thanks Peter! I hadn't checked it out. Fred -- "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." --George Washington -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From d.kuntadi at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 03:57:32 2009 From: d.kuntadi at gmail.com (David Kuntadi) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 15:57:32 +0700 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ubuntu CE 6.0 beta release, based on Karmic Koala Message-ID: <9844155d0912050057r354605a1s17c0c84b5f8ef055@mail.gmail.com> There is a new release of Ubuntu Christian Edition: http://distrowatch.com/5803 DK From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Sat Dec 5 20:06:05 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2009 20:06:05 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] CORRECTION re. Hebrews 12:14 Commentary Message-ID: <4B1B037D.3020607@bibleseven.com> In my recent commentary including Hebrews 12:14 there is an error. Hebrews 12:14 "Pursue peace with everyone, and holiness, for without it no one will see the Lord." I suggested that one read the instruction as intended for us as witnesses of Christ in our lives. Upon closer examination, at the behest of one of those who receive these Studies, it is clear that such is not the primary intent of the text. The text is intending to speak to our faithful obedience and that we not resist the discipline of God when we slack or stray. While a reading which also impacts our witness to others may be a secondary reading, based upon the clause "with everyone", it is clearly secondary. Sorry for any confusion! -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Sat Dec 5 20:41:20 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2009 20:41:20 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] =?utf-8?b?4oCtSmFtZXMgMToxLTE4IChTdW5kYXkp?= Message-ID: <4B1B0BC0.8010007@bibleseven.com> *?James 1:1-18 (Sunday)* *?Commentary* Let the words of James 1:2 echo as we read the report, from 2 Corinthians 11:23-28, of the suffering endured by the Apostle Paul, : "... in far more imprisonments, "consider it nothing but joy ..." "... beaten times without number, often in danger of death. "consider it nothing but joy ..." "Five times I received from the Jews thirty-nine lashes. "consider it nothing but joy ..." "Three times I was beaten with rods, "consider it nothing but joy ..." "... once I was stoned, "consider it nothing but joy ..." "... three times I was shipwrecked, "consider it nothing but joy ..." " a night and a day I have spent in the deep. "consider it nothing but joy ..." "I have been on frequent journeys, in dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my countrymen, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers on the sea, dangers among false brethren; "consider it nothing but joy ..." "I have been in labor and hardship, through many sleepless nights, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure. "consider it nothing but joy ..." "Apart from such external things, there is the daily pressure upon me of concern for all the churches. "consider it nothing but joy ..." James reminds his readers to follow the example of Solomon, where wisdom is needed, ask the Holy Spirit for more. James insists that our requests of God be "without doubting" because "... one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed about by the wind ... that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord, since he is an double-minded individual, unstable in all his ways." While God is not tempted we are. We must not let our good fortunes in this world cause us to imagine that we cannot be tempted. We must see tests as an opportunity to mature by resisting through the strength of the Holy Spirit within. Be bold in the declaration of God: "Everyone therefore who shall confess Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever shall deny Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven? (Matthew 10:24-33). Look forward to an opportunity to testify to Jesus and your hope in Him: ?"And do not fear their intimidation, and do not be troubled, but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you" (1 Peter 3:14b-15) Be careful that your suffering is due to your faithfulness, or at least not due to your sin: "... and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame." (1 Peter 3:16) ? *Interaction* *Consider* the actualization of James teaching that is found in Paul's writings. *Discuss* practical ways to be bold in the declaration of God, looking forward to an opportunity to testify to Jesus and your hope in Him, while being careful that your suffering is due to your faithfulness, or at least not due to your sin. *Reflect* ?upon ?James insistence that our requests of God be "without doubting" because "... one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed about by the wind ... that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord, since he is an double-minded individual, unstable in all his ways." *Share* an example of following the example of Solomon, when wisdom was needed and you asked the Holy Spirit for more. Did He give it only to you directly or did He provide one or more others to walk with you in discerning the guidance of His wisdom? *Truth in Action* Today I am choosing to identify a place in my life where I have been doubting God, asking Him to provide what I need to walk a more mature walk and/or to have the wisdom I need, but not really trusting and therefore not allowing Him to do so. I will confess that double-mindedness to a fellow believer and ask them to pray with me to break free of that place of stuckness. *Be Specific* ______________________________________ ------------------------------------- Monday's text will be: ?James 1:18-27 ------------------------------------- -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From fmiller at lightlink.com Sun Dec 6 14:59:14 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 14:59:14 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. Message-ID: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> Muslims don't want anyone to hear the truth about Islam, that it is a feudal, pagan, repressive, satanic religion, created by an arrogant ignorant reprobate, a womanizer, pedophile, and murderer. Fred http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=117985 -- "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." --George Washington -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fmiller at lightlink.com Sun Dec 6 16:10:38 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 16:10:38 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Practicing What We Preach Message-ID: <4B1C1DCE.20307@lightlink.com> *Practicing What We Preach* /Jonathan Falwell/ An Associated Press story this week about actress Sandra Bullock brought home the importance of Christians living upright and honorable lives. Ms. Bullock, who portrays Leigh Anne Tuohy in the new film "The Blind Side," said she observed the Christian mother to "walk the walk" of her faith. The movie recounts the story of the white Tuohy family welcoming a homeless young African American teen into their home, later adopting him as their son. That young man, Michael Oher, is today an offensive lineman for the NFL's Baltimore Ravens after being that team's first-round draft pick earlier this year. The film is one of the great hits at the box office right now. Ms. Bullock told the AP that the Tuohys, who attend Grace Evangelical Church in Memphis, allowed her to have "faith in those who say they represent a faith." "[Mrs. Tuohy] was so open and honest and forthright," Ms. Bullock said, "and I said, wow, I finally met someone who practices but doesn't preach." The actress noted that she had observed other Christians who promoted their faith but did not live their life as they preached, even admitting to the AP that she was wary of Christians before she met the Tuohys. This is an important message for Christians. I think that we can't be reminded enough that people are observing us---many of those people tainted by the poor testimony of others who have claimed to be Christians. I think we can observe in this story how imperative it is that we are not only effectively talking about our faith in Jesus Christ, we are also living moral, principled lives that would please God and show those who are scrutinizing us that we are real. You know, young hunters are taught the importance of aiming well before firing. Similarly, in the Christian life, I think we need to learn how to live out our faith before "firing" with our words. I'm not suggesting in the least that our witnessing is not important because God has certainly called us to reach others with the Gospel. But this AP story indicates how crucial it is to earn people's trust, especially in this present age that distrusts Christianity. There is great power in our testimony but only when we are living holy lives that bolster our words. I think it behooves every Christian to do an occasional self-evaluation in order to ensure that there are not impediments to our being effective spokespersons and apologists for Jesus Christ. Our friends and neighbors and co-workers need to be able to see us as Sandra Bullock has identified Leigh Anne Tuohy. We live in a fallen world, my friends. As Christians, we need to be constantly showing others that Christ in us makes all the difference in the world. Since my father's passing in May 2008, I have attempted to live out the maxim, "Not I, but Christ." That is a fitting conclusion to this column. We are nothing without Christ and we must ensure that we are constantly calling attention to Him as we humbly seek to show others that He --- and only He --- is the way to eternal life. Preach it. But always make sure you're also living it. -- "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." --George Washington -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From htgage3 at chartermi.net Sun Dec 6 20:11:17 2009 From: htgage3 at chartermi.net (htgage3 at chartermi.net) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 17:11:17 -0800 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> Message-ID: <20091206201118.YVYMH.188779.root@mp07> Fred, you forgot 10 other things that that guy was. Kidnapper, multiple wives, mental illness (possibly "ignorant reprobate" fits here," and others, which I can't tell you right now, as I don't have my book here, I loaned it to a guy at church, which tells of all the things that he was. "Prophet of Doom" by Charles Winn?, I believe was his last name. got it through B&N, but you can also look at it at www.prophetofdoom.com or .org, don't remember which. ---- "Fred A. Miller" wrote: > Muslims don't want anyone to hear the truth about Islam, that it is a > feudal, pagan, repressive, satanic religion, created by an arrogant > ignorant reprobate, a womanizer, pedophile, and murderer. > > Fred > > http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=117985 > > -- > "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, > but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to > maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt > to abuse them, which would include their own government." > --George Washington > From d.kuntadi at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 20:25:51 2009 From: d.kuntadi at gmail.com (David Kuntadi) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 08:25:51 +0700 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> Message-ID: <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 2:59 AM, Fred A. Miller wrote: > Muslims don't want anyone to hear the truth about Islam, that it is a > feudal, pagan, repressive, satanic religion, created by an arrogant ignorant > reprobate, a womanizer, pedophile, and murderer. While it ma be true for modern morality, at that time he is better than people around him which were barbaric. DK From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Sun Dec 6 20:31:29 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 20:31:29 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> Moral equivalence? He rejects Jesus and is willingly used by satan to invent a competing religion and it is worth the time to make excuses for him based on "Gee, he wasn't as bad as some others around him?" What's up with that? > On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 2:59 AM, Fred A. Miller > wrote: >> Muslims don't want anyone to hear the truth about >> Islam, that it is a feudal, pagan, repressive, satanic >> religion, created by an arrogant ignorant reprobate, a >> womanizer, pedophile, and murderer. > > While it ma be true for modern morality, at that time he > is better than people around him which were barbaric. > > DK -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From d.kuntadi at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 20:37:20 2009 From: d.kuntadi at gmail.com (David Kuntadi) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 08:37:20 +0700 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> Message-ID: <9844155d0912061737y1059c86byd3c8528d1583e422@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 8:31 AM, Pastor David wrote: > Moral equivalence? > > He rejects Jesus and is willingly used by satan to invent > a competing religion and it is worth the time to make excuses for him based > on "Gee, he wasn't as bad as some others around him?" > > What's up with that? What I understand he accepted Jesus and try to spread Christianity at his time. Quran teach the Judge that would come is Jesus, doesn't it? DK From fmiller at lightlink.com Sun Dec 6 20:45:53 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 20:45:53 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <20091206201118.YVYMH.188779.root@mp07> References: <20091206201118.YVYMH.188779.root@mp07> Message-ID: <4B1C5E51.6000106@lightlink.com> On 12/06/2009 08:11 PM, htgage3 at chartermi.net wrote: > Fred, you forgot 10 other things that that guy was. Kidnapper, multiple wives, mental illness (possibly "ignorant reprobate" fits here," and others, which I can't tell you right now, as I don't have my book here, I loaned it to a guy at church, which tells of all the things that he was. "Prophet of Doom" by Charles Winn?, I believe was his last name. got it through B&N, but you can also look at it at www.prophetofdoom.com or .org, don't remember which. > Yes, I know there are others, but I also couldn't remember then all when I wrote that. ;) Fred -- A REVOLUTIONARY IDEA! 'Time to put Nana Pelosi in a home!' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fmiller at lightlink.com Sun Dec 6 20:47:19 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 20:47:19 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B1C5EA7.3090207@lightlink.com> On 12/06/2009 08:25 PM, David Kuntadi wrote: > On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 2:59 AM, Fred A. Miller wrote: > >> Muslims don't want anyone to hear the truth about Islam, that it is a >> feudal, pagan, repressive, satanic religion, created by an arrogant ignorant >> reprobate, a womanizer, pedophile, and murderer. >> > While it ma be true for modern morality, at that time he is better > than people around him which were barbaric. > > Actually, no he wasn't! He was quite the barbarian himself. Fred -- A REVOLUTIONARY IDEA! 'Time to put Nana Pelosi in a home!' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fmiller at lightlink.com Sun Dec 6 20:51:48 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 20:51:48 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912061737y1059c86byd3c8528d1583e422@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <9844155d0912061737y1059c86byd3c8528d1583e422@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B1C5FB4.8050201@lightlink.com> On 12/06/2009 08:37 PM, David Kuntadi wrote: > On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 8:31 AM, Pastor David wrote: > >> Moral equivalence? >> >> He rejects Jesus and is willingly used by satan to invent >> a competing religion and it is worth the time to make excuses for him based >> on "Gee, he wasn't as bad as some others around him?" >> >> What's up with that? >> > What I understand he accepted Jesus and try to spread Christianity at > his time. Quran teach the Judge that would come is Jesus, doesn't it? > > I've read the Quran and I didn't read that at all! The Quran DENIES the divinity of Christ....PERIOD, and he NEVER, NEVER tried to spread Christianity but when Christians and Jews told him he wasn't God's prophet, he then added all the "hate and murder" infidels garbage to the Quran. Now, THAT is the true, so now you know it. Fred -- A REVOLUTIONARY IDEA! 'Time to put Nana Pelosi in a home!' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tbutler at ofb.biz Sun Dec 6 21:07:07 2009 From: tbutler at ofb.biz (Timothy Butler) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 20:07:07 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912061737y1059c86byd3c8528d1583e422@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <9844155d0912061737y1059c86byd3c8528d1583e422@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3C4F6B5D-6774-425B-9724-0DACA27A3383@ofb.biz> On Dec 6, 2009, at 7:37 PM, David Kuntadi wrote: > On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 8:31 AM, Pastor David > wrote: >> Moral equivalence? >> >> He rejects Jesus and is willingly used by satan to invent >> a competing religion and it is worth the time to make excuses for >> him based >> on "Gee, he wasn't as bad as some others around him?" >> >> What's up with that? > > What I understand he accepted Jesus and try to spread Christianity at > his time. Quran teach the Judge that would come is Jesus, doesn't it? Yes (but Jesus is a human, not divine in the Muslim view). It is also worth noting that during the earlier years, Islam was less militant than it is now, encouraged centers of learning that studied philosophy, classics, etc. and so on. Thomas Aquinas, for example, was deeply indebted to Muslim philosopher Averroes whom he referred to as "the Interpreter" for his work on the interpretation of Aristotle. -Tim From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Sun Dec 6 21:06:49 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 21:06:49 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912061737y1059c86byd3c8528d1583e422@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <9844155d0912061737y1059c86byd3c8528d1583e422@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B1C6339.2030908@bibleseven.com> No, he was a traveling "salesman" who borrowed ideas from other religions and created his own - and that is what he tried to sell - with a little modified-Jesus mixed in. Classic satanic "come disguised and an angel of light". When that didn't work he added the hateful and legalistic stuff - including conversion at the point of a sword since few were interested voluntarily - and also all of the lust- based manipulation of immature males. The hordes of barbaric monsters who parade about the world today are a direct and predictable result. The rest who claim Islam are like many who claim Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hindu, etc. - token members who really do not understand their own faith. Contrast that with the Bible - the law in the OT convicting man that he needed a savior - the Savior bringing grace via a voluntary love-response to an amazing invitation. There is one God, one Savior, one Way. The rest are pretenders. > On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 8:31 AM, Pastor David wrote: >> Moral equivalence? >> >> He rejects Jesus and is willingly used by satan to invent >> a competing religion and it is worth the time to make excuses for him based >> on "Gee, he wasn't as bad as some others around him?" >> >> What's up with that? > > What I understand he accepted Jesus and try to spread Christianity at > his time. Quran teach the Judge that would come is Jesus, doesn't it? > > DK > -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Sun Dec 6 21:22:54 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 21:22:54 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] =?utf-8?b?4oCtSmFtZXMgMToxOC0yNyAoTW9uZGF5KQ==?= Message-ID: <4B1C66FE.8010907@bibleseven.com> *?James 1:18-27 (Monday)* *?Commentary* "By His sovereign plan ..." {Note: God is in control.] "... he gave us birth through the message of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of all he created." [Note: God provides for a new birth, in Christ, cleansed of our sins. We are returned to pre-Fall standing.] "Understand this, my dear brothers and sisters! Let every person be quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to anger. For human anger does not accomplish God's righteousness." [Note: Paul taught us to "pray without ceasing" because in so doing we have to slow down before we react to circumstances and consult God through His indwelling Holy Spirit. Jesus warned that the tongue is tough to control. Jesus also taught that there is "righteous anger" but that one must not "sin in their anger".] "... put away all filth and evil excess" [Note: We cannot do this of our own strength but only through the Holy Spirit. "... humbly welcome the message planted within you." [Note: The Bible teaches that God will "write His message on the heart" of the faithful.] "... be sure you live out the message and do not merely listen to it ... be blessed" [Note: "The Word of God does not return void - without impact - when it is received by a willing heart.] "If someone thinks he is religious yet does not bridle his tongue, and so deceives his heart, his religion is futile. [Note: We each make choices to obey or to rebel, the one who does not choose to allow the Holy Spirit to control their tongue, has made a choice to rebel. God's consistent message is that He blesses obedience and not disobedience.] "Pure and undefiled religion before God the Father is this:" [Note: We live before "an audience of one", that is God alone; we must focus on pleasing Him above all others.] "... to care for orphans and widows in their misfortune" [Note: "A father to the fatherless, a husband to the widow.] "... to keep oneself unstained by the world. [Note: If we recite the Lord's Prayer with intentional meaning then we cannot say "Lead us not into testing or temptation" if we deliberately remain in situations where we know that we are vulnerable.] *Interaction* *Consider* that ?Paul taught us to "pray without ceasing" because in so doing we have to slow down before we react to circumstances and consult God through His indwelling Holy Spirit. Jesus warned that the tongue is tough to control. Jesus also taught that there is "righteous anger" but that one must not "sin in their anger". *Discuss* some practical ways to ?"... put away all filth and evil excess" and "... to care for orphans and widows in their misfortune". *Reflect* upon ?the Lord's Prayer with intentional meaning - we cannot say "Lead us not into testing or temptation" if we deliberately remain in situations where we know that we are vulnerable. *Share* an example from your life "... humbly welcome the message planted within you." How has God's message brought comfort and wisdom and you have shared that with others - giving Him all of the glory? *?Truth in Action* Today I will ask the Holy Spirit to show me where I fail to "pray without ceasing" which means that I fail to slow down before I react to circumstances and consult God through His indwelling Holy Spirit. I agree to partner with the Holy Spirit for wisdom and power, and with a fellow believer for accountability, as I walk through the process of transformation in my life. *Be Specific* ________________________________________ -------------------------------------- Tuesday's text will be: ?James 2:1-13 -------------------------------------- -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From d.kuntadi at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 21:45:42 2009 From: d.kuntadi at gmail.com (David Kuntadi) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 09:45:42 +0700 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <3C4F6B5D-6774-425B-9724-0DACA27A3383@ofb.biz> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <9844155d0912061737y1059c86byd3c8528d1583e422@mail.gmail.com> <3C4F6B5D-6774-425B-9724-0DACA27A3383@ofb.biz> Message-ID: <9844155d0912061845kb753bcdjbd9f70db6aef2f83@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 9:07 AM, Timothy Butler wrote: > ? ? ? ?Yes (but Jesus is a human, not divine in the Muslim view). It is also > worth noting that during the earlier years, Islam was less militant than it > is now, encouraged centers of learning that studied philosophy, classics, > etc. and so on. Thomas Aquinas, for example, was deeply indebted to Muslim > philosopher Averroes whom he referred to as "the Interpreter" for his work > on the interpretation of Aristotle. There are two problems here: 1. If Jesus is not accepted as God in Quran, why Quran accepted that Jesus would come and judge the world? 2. In the early christianity, not all christians accepted Jesus the same as God. Only after Athanasius of Alexandria won the "Political battle" against Arius then Athanasian Creed is accepted, trinitarian was established. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01707c.htm DK From mwmcmlln at mnsi.net Sun Dec 6 22:05:38 2009 From: mwmcmlln at mnsi.net (Mike McMullin) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 22:05:38 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> Message-ID: <1260155138.6005.2.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> On Sun, 2009-12-06 at 20:31 -0500, Pastor David wrote: > Moral equivalence? > > He rejects Jesus and is willingly used by satan to invent > a competing religion and it is worth the time to make > excuses for him based on "Gee, he wasn't as bad as some > others around him?" > > What's up with that? > > > On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 2:59 AM, Fred A. Miller > > wrote: > >> Muslims don't want anyone to hear the truth about > >> Islam, that it is a feudal, pagan, repressive, satanic > >> religion, created by an arrogant ignorant reprobate, a > >> womanizer, pedophile, and murderer. > > > > While it ma be true for modern morality, at that time he > > is better than people around him which were barbaric. > > > > DK Is it actually an excuse to get the social reference right? I'm not seeing an Oh, well he was such a nice guy in the reply, just a note as to how reproachable a time it was. From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Sun Dec 6 22:13:42 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 22:13:42 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912061845kb753bcdjbd9f70db6aef2f83@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <9844155d0912061737y1059c86byd3c8528d1583e422@mail.gmail.com> <3C4F6B5D-6774-425B-9724-0DACA27A3383@ofb.biz> <9844155d0912061845kb753bcdjbd9f70db6aef2f83@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B1C72E6.7010507@bibleseven.com> > 1. If Jesus is not accepted as God in Quran, why Quran accepted that > Jesus would come and judge the world? Jesus is either Who He said He is or He is just another "prophet" or something else, available to the manipulations of any u-do-it religious inventor, or He is a liar - and that would be Biblical heresy. Jesus unmistakably claims divinity. I am saved through faith in Him. He is right and anyone who disagrees with Him is wrong. > 2. In the early christianity, not all christians accepted Jesus the > same as God. Only after Athanasius of Alexandria won the "Political > battle" against Arius then Athanasian Creed is accepted, trinitarian > was established. Sorry, no, that is not at all true, that is merely the opinion of some based on an over-reliance on things said and done by folks affiliated with religious organizations mislabeled "churches" and an under-reliance upon the sovereign Word of God. I could care less what anyone from the time of the writing of the Bible until now says, God's Word and not mere human philosophers and theologians, represents the only reliable truth. One must begin and end there or else one is wasting their time. I have just written a Study from the Gospels through Hebrews and am now working on James. I have primarily relied upon the NET Bible (including their 60,000+ translator's notes). The divinity of Christ, and the Trinity, are repeatedly stated and reinforced throughout the NT (with considerable supportive text in the OT). The only way I could imagine one may read the NT and not come to a clear understanding of the divinity of Christ, and the Trinity, is to begin with that assumption and force it upon the text "with a pen knife" (John Stott's expression) or via the distortion of the clear meaning of many sections of the text. It is disheartening that inside of "Christianity" we are even still having this debate. Sigh. PD -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From d.kuntadi at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 22:22:05 2009 From: d.kuntadi at gmail.com (David Kuntadi) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 10:22:05 +0700 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <1260155138.6005.2.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <1260155138.6005.2.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> Message-ID: <9844155d0912061922ic944803yf97881a6a08c16a8@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 10:05 AM, Mike McMullin wrote: > ?Is it actually an excuse to get the social reference right? ?I'm not > seeing an Oh, well he was such a nice guy in the reply, just a note as > to how reproachable a time it was. Not only that, we also need an excuse for brutality in bible, isn't it? Num 31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. Num 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. DK From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Sun Dec 6 22:21:52 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 22:21:52 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <1260155138.6005.2.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <1260155138.6005.2.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> Message-ID: <4B1C74D0.9090404@bibleseven.com> Reading the posts following I don't think that was the intent, there is a latent sense of doubt about the integrity of the Bible - or at least such is implied - in the posts. I am guessing a connection to the so-called Emergent Church "movement" which is largely captive to a liberal influence which constantly seeks to undermine the credibility of the Bible. > Mike McMullin wrote: > Is it actually an excuse to get the social reference right? I'm not > seeing an Oh, well he was such a nice guy in the reply, just a note as > to how reproachable a time it was. -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From d.kuntadi at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 22:27:00 2009 From: d.kuntadi at gmail.com (David Kuntadi) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 10:27:00 +0700 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <4B1C72E6.7010507@bibleseven.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <9844155d0912061737y1059c86byd3c8528d1583e422@mail.gmail.com> <3C4F6B5D-6774-425B-9724-0DACA27A3383@ofb.biz> <9844155d0912061845kb753bcdjbd9f70db6aef2f83@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C72E6.7010507@bibleseven.com> Message-ID: <9844155d0912061927r5bd75ec6n26034c69219c588a@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 10:13 AM, Pastor David wrote: > It is disheartening that inside of "Christianity" we are even still having > this debate. > > Sigh. Not really. There are "many types" of "Christianity", and the debate would always be there as an organized religion. I am from Indonesia, with majority Moslem community, and I have many good Moslem friends. It is difficult to live in Indonesia without developing a religious tolerance. DK From d.kuntadi at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 23:37:44 2009 From: d.kuntadi at gmail.com (David Kuntadi) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 11:37:44 +0700 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <4B1C74D0.9090404@bibleseven.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <1260155138.6005.2.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <4B1C74D0.9090404@bibleseven.com> Message-ID: <9844155d0912062037l75b14dcdj9c6b4196d47e88ea@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 10:21 AM, Pastor David wrote: > Reading the posts following I don't think that was the intent, there is a > latent sense of doubt about the integrity of the Bible - or at least such is > implied - in the posts. I have no doubt in the integrity of the bible. DK From fmiller at lightlink.com Sun Dec 6 23:50:51 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 23:50:51 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912061845kb753bcdjbd9f70db6aef2f83@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <9844155d0912061737y1059c86byd3c8528d1583e422@mail.gmail.com> <3C4F6B5D-6774-425B-9724-0DACA27A3383@ofb.biz> <9844155d0912061845kb753bcdjbd9f70db6aef2f83@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B1C89AB.8090702@lightlink.com> On 12/06/2009 09:45 PM, David Kuntadi wrote: > On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 9:07 AM, Timothy Butler wrote: > >> Yes (but Jesus is a human, not divine in the Muslim view). It is also >> worth noting that during the earlier years, Islam was less militant than it >> is now, encouraged centers of learning that studied philosophy, classics, >> etc. and so on. Thomas Aquinas, for example, was deeply indebted to Muslim >> philosopher Averroes whom he referred to as "the Interpreter" for his work >> on the interpretation of Aristotle. >> > There are two problems here: > > 1. If Jesus is not accepted as God in Quran, why Quran accepted that > Jesus would come and judge the world? > Ok......SHOW me, in the Quran where it says that. I already KNOW it doesn't! Fred -- A REVOLUTIONARY IDEA! 'Time to put Nana Pelosi in a home!' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From d.kuntadi at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 00:12:49 2009 From: d.kuntadi at gmail.com (David Kuntadi) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 12:12:49 +0700 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <4B1C89AB.8090702@lightlink.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <9844155d0912061737y1059c86byd3c8528d1583e422@mail.gmail.com> <3C4F6B5D-6774-425B-9724-0DACA27A3383@ofb.biz> <9844155d0912061845kb753bcdjbd9f70db6aef2f83@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C89AB.8090702@lightlink.com> Message-ID: <9844155d0912062112g5515158fna5f6a1f3dfb3e952@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 11:50 AM, Fred A. Miller wrote: > On 12/06/2009 09:45 PM, David Kuntadi wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 9:07 AM, Timothy Butler wrote: > > > ? ? ? ?Yes (but Jesus is a human, not divine in the Muslim view). It is also > worth noting that during the earlier years, Islam was less militant than it > is now, encouraged centers of learning that studied philosophy, classics, > etc. and so on. Thomas Aquinas, for example, was deeply indebted to Muslim > philosopher Averroes whom he referred to as "the Interpreter" for his work > on the interpretation of Aristotle. > > > There are two problems here: > > 1. If Jesus is not accepted as God in Quran, why Quran accepted that > Jesus would come and judge the world? > > > Ok......SHOW me, in the Quran where it says that. I already KNOW it doesn't! I said, Quran accepts Jesus as the Judge of the world: http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/043.qmt.html#043.061 043.061 YUSUFALI: And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way. PICKTHAL: And lo! verily there is knowledge of the Hour. So doubt ye not concerning it, but follow Me. This is the right path. SHAKIR: And most surely it is a knowledge of the hour, therefore have no doubt about it and follow me: this is the right path. So, why doas Quran accept Jesus as Judge of the world? DK From dlormand at smalltimer.net Mon Dec 7 00:58:25 2009 From: dlormand at smalltimer.net (David Ormand) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 22:58:25 -0700 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. Message-ID: <4B1C9981.6060304@smalltimer.net> > Yes (but Jesus is a human, not divine in the Muslim view). It is also > worth noting that during the earlier years, Islam was less militant > than it is now, encouraged centers of learning that studied > philosophy, classics, etc. and so on. Thomas Aquinas, for example, was > deeply indebted to Muslim philosopher Averroes whom he referred to as > "the Interpreter" for his work on the interpretation of Aristotle. I think you have to be careful with painting ALL of Islam of that period with the same broad brush. Very much like today, there are some muslims (Jordan, urban Indonesia) who are tolerant of other religions, and there are others (western Pakistan) who are NOT. I'm sure that the stricter muslims regard their easy-going fellows as apostate or heretical. Same problem with painting ALL Christians with a broad brush, like our liberal fellow Americans like to do. I'm sure there were areas in medievel Islam, like wealthy sultan's courts, where they were more "open-minded", but I don't think you can say that ALL medievel Islam was like that. From mwmcmlln at mnsi.net Mon Dec 7 01:31:15 2009 From: mwmcmlln at mnsi.net (Mike McMullin) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 01:31:15 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912061922ic944803yf97881a6a08c16a8@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <1260155138.6005.2.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912061922ic944803yf97881a6a08c16a8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1260167475.7929.7.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> On Mon, 2009-12-07 at 10:22 +0700, David Kuntadi wrote: > On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 10:05 AM, Mike McMullin wrote: > > Is it actually an excuse to get the social reference right? I'm not > > seeing an Oh, well he was such a nice guy in the reply, just a note as > > to how reproachable a time it was. > > Not only that, we also need an excuse for brutality in bible, isn't it? > Num 31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD > commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. > Num 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and > kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. Actually we don't need any excuse as far as that quote goes, we need to understand that God does what God does for reasons that do not always make sense to us, and we would be arrogant to assume that they have to make sense to us. Just my .0187 cents includes HST of course. From d.kuntadi at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 01:43:26 2009 From: d.kuntadi at gmail.com (David Kuntadi) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 13:43:26 +0700 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <1260167475.7929.7.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <1260155138.6005.2.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912061922ic944803yf97881a6a08c16a8@mail.gmail.com> <1260167475.7929.7.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> Message-ID: <9844155d0912062243x1e2b2234r4c281a577491ce1d@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 1:31 PM, Mike McMullin wrote: >> Not only that, we also need an excuse for brutality in bible, isn't it? >> Num 31:7 ?And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD >> commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. >> Num 31:17 ?Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and >> kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. > > ?Actually we don't need any excuse as far as that quote goes, we need > to understand that God does what God does for reasons that do not always > make sense to us, and we would be arrogant to assume that they have to > make sense to us. ?Just my .0187 cents includes HST of course. Then those Moslem could give the same arguments to their brutality that their God does for reasons that do not always make sense to us. DK From l4c at thelinuxlink.net Mon Dec 7 08:32:45 2009 From: l4c at thelinuxlink.net (l4c) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 08:32:45 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912062112g5515158fna5f6a1f3dfb3e952@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <9844155d0912061737y1059c86byd3c8528d1583e422@mail.gmail.com> <3C4F6B5D-6774-425B-9724-0DACA27A3383@ofb.biz> <9844155d0912061845kb753bcdjbd9f70db6aef2f83@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C89AB.8090702@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912062112g5515158fna5f6a1f3dfb3e952@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B1D03FD.5000904@thelinuxlink.net> David Kuntadi wrote: > On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 11:50 AM, Fred A. Miller wrote: >> On 12/06/2009 09:45 PM, David Kuntadi wrote: >> >> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 9:07 AM, Timothy Butler wrote: >> >> >> Yes (but Jesus is a human, not divine in the Muslim view). It is also >> worth noting that during the earlier years, Islam was less militant than it >> is now, encouraged centers of learning that studied philosophy, classics, >> etc. and so on. Thomas Aquinas, for example, was deeply indebted to Muslim >> philosopher Averroes whom he referred to as "the Interpreter" for his work >> on the interpretation of Aristotle. >> >> >> There are two problems here: >> >> 1. If Jesus is not accepted as God in Quran, why Quran accepted that >> Jesus would come and judge the world? >> >> >> Ok......SHOW me, in the Quran where it says that. I already KNOW it doesn't! > > I said, Quran accepts Jesus as the Judge of the world: > > http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/043.qmt.html#043.061 > > 043.061 > YUSUFALI: And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of > Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: > this is a Straight Way. > PICKTHAL: And lo! verily there is knowledge of the Hour. So doubt ye > not concerning it, but follow Me. This is the right path. > SHAKIR: And most surely it is a knowledge of the hour, therefore have > no doubt about it and follow me: this is the right path. > > So, why doas Quran accept Jesus as Judge of the world? > > DK Why are we even discussing the validity of a book which is so obviously a fiction? To better our understanding, and give us a way to speak to and spread the true gospel? To that end: The Quran repeatedly makes reference to Jesus only being another prophet: "Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how God makes His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!" (5:75). "He [Jesus] said: 'I am indeed a servant of God. He has given me revelation and made me a prophet; He has made me blessed wheresoever I be; and He has enjoined on me prayer and charity as long as I live. He has made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable. So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!' Such was Jesus the son of Mary. It is a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is" (19:30-35). Unfortunately for them (the Muslims), even secularly speaking, the historical accountance provided in the Bible (not the Quran) has been proven to be the most historically correct record of the time that we have. In fact, everywhere it _can_ be proven to be accurate, it has been proven to be accurate, from archaeological findings (existence of cities and their locations) to historical accounts of people and places cross referenced with texts of other secular historians of the time period. Why does that matter? Well, because if we accept that the Bible as a more accurate historical record, we have to accept that what is in there as accurate too. And, in the Bible, Jesus says: Jn.5:37: "And the Father himself, who sent me, has borne witness of me. You have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.." Whoa?! Not just a prophet, but *THE* SON OF GOD! John 14:6: Jesus said to him, "I AM the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Nope, don't follow anyone else.. Not even Muhammad. What the Bible does not have Jesus as saying is that he is just a prophet and to go and follow Muhammad. From htgage3 at chartermi.net Mon Dec 7 18:08:24 2009 From: htgage3 at chartermi.net (htgage3 at chartermi.net) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 18:08:24 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912062243x1e2b2234r4c281a577491ce1d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091207180824.R5AO4.247741.root@mp08> ---- David Kuntadi wrote: > On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 1:31 PM, Mike McMullin wrote: > >> Not only that, we also need an excuse for brutality in bible, isn't it? > >> Num 31:7 ?And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD > >> commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. > >> Num 31:17 ?Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and > >> kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. > > > > ?Actually we don't need any excuse as far as that quote goes, we need > > to understand that God does what God does for reasons that do not always > > make sense to us, and we would be arrogant to assume that they have to > > make sense to us. ?Just my .0187 cents includes HST of course. > > Then those Moslem could give the same arguments to their brutality > that their God does for reasons that do not always make sense to us. > > DK They could _try_to, but it wouldn't wash, as they serve a different God than what we do. Their god is the god of this world, and ours isn't. On the contrary, our God made this world and all that we see! From fmiller at lightlink.com Mon Dec 7 16:47:31 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 16:47:31 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <4B1D03FD.5000904@thelinuxlink.net> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <9844155d0912061737y1059c86byd3c8528d1583e422@mail.gmail.com> <3C4F6B5D-6774-425B-9724-0DACA27A3383@ofb.biz> <9844155d0912061845kb753bcdjbd9f70db6aef2f83@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C89AB.8090702@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912062112g5515158fna5f6a1f3dfb3e952@mail.gmail.com> <4B1D03FD.5000904@thelinuxlink.net> Message-ID: <4B1D77F3.3070909@lightlink.com> On 12/07/2009 08:32 AM, l4c wrote: > David Kuntadi wrote: >> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 11:50 AM, Fred A. Miller >> wrote: >>> On 12/06/2009 09:45 PM, David Kuntadi wrote: >>> >>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 9:07 AM, Timothy Butler wrote: >>> >>> >>> Yes (but Jesus is a human, not divine in the Muslim view). It >>> is also >>> worth noting that during the earlier years, Islam was less militant >>> than it >>> is now, encouraged centers of learning that studied philosophy, >>> classics, >>> etc. and so on. Thomas Aquinas, for example, was deeply indebted to >>> Muslim >>> philosopher Averroes whom he referred to as "the Interpreter" for >>> his work >>> on the interpretation of Aristotle. >>> >>> >>> There are two problems here: >>> >>> 1. If Jesus is not accepted as God in Quran, why Quran accepted that >>> Jesus would come and judge the world? >>> >>> >>> Ok......SHOW me, in the Quran where it says that. I already KNOW it >>> doesn't! >> >> I said, Quran accepts Jesus as the Judge of the world: >> >> http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/043.qmt.html#043.061 >> >> >> 043.061 >> YUSUFALI: And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of >> Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: >> this is a Straight Way. >> PICKTHAL: And lo! verily there is knowledge of the Hour. So doubt ye >> not concerning it, but follow Me. This is the right path. >> SHAKIR: And most surely it is a knowledge of the hour, therefore have >> no doubt about it and follow me: this is the right path. >> >> So, why doas Quran accept Jesus as Judge of the world? >> >> DK > > Why are we even discussing the validity of a book which is so > obviously a fiction? To better our understanding, and give us a way > to speak to and spread the true gospel? To that end: > > The Quran repeatedly makes reference to Jesus only being another prophet: > "Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a messenger; many were the > messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of > truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how God makes His > signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from > the truth!" (5:75). > "He [Jesus] said: 'I am indeed a servant of God. He has given me > revelation and made me a prophet; He has made me blessed wheresoever I > be; and He has enjoined on me prayer and charity as long as I live. He > has made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable. So > peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day > that I shall be raised up to life (again)!' Such was Jesus the son of > Mary. It is a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. > It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a > son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, > 'Be,' and it is" (19:30-35). > > Unfortunately for them (the Muslims), even secularly speaking, the > historical accountance provided in the Bible (not the Quran) has been > proven to be the most historically correct record of the time that we > have. In fact, everywhere it _can_ be proven to be accurate, it has > been proven to be accurate, from archaeological findings (existence of > cities and their locations) to historical accounts of people and > places cross referenced with texts of other secular historians of the > time period. > > Why does that matter? Well, because if we accept that the Bible as a > more accurate historical record, we have to accept that what is in > there as accurate too. And, in the Bible, Jesus says: > > Jn.5:37: "And the Father himself, who sent me, has borne witness of > me. You have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.." > > Whoa?! Not just a prophet, but *THE* SON OF GOD! > > John 14:6: Jesus said to him, "I AM the way, the truth, and the life. > No one comes to the Father except through Me. > > Nope, don't follow anyone else.. Not even Muhammad. > > What the Bible does not have Jesus as saying is that he is just a > prophet and to go and follow Muhammad. GOOD job, Linc.....THANKS, now I've got to get ready for work. Fred -- A REVOLUTIONARY IDEA! 'Time to put Nana Pelosi in a home!' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fmiller at lightlink.com Mon Dec 7 16:34:23 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 16:34:23 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912062243x1e2b2234r4c281a577491ce1d@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <1260155138.6005.2.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912061922ic944803yf97881a6a08c16a8@mail.gmail.com> <1260167475.7929.7.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912062243x1e2b2234r4c281a577491ce1d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B1D74DF.3010701@lightlink.com> On 12/07/2009 01:43 AM, David Kuntadi wrote: > On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 1:31 PM, Mike McMullin wrote: > >>> Not only that, we also need an excuse for brutality in bible, isn't it? >>> Num 31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD >>> commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. >>> Num 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and >>> kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. >>> >> Actually we don't need any excuse as far as that quote goes, we need >> to understand that God does what God does for reasons that do not always >> make sense to us, and we would be arrogant to assume that they have to >> make sense to us. Just my .0187 cents includes HST of course. >> > Then those Moslem could give the same arguments to their brutality > that their God does for reasons that do not always make sense to us. > I suppose, except that their "god," the name of which was originally a "moon god," is NOT the god of the universe. Being wrong is still wrong, no matter how you cut it. Fred -- A REVOLUTIONARY IDEA! 'Time to put Nana Pelosi in a home!' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fmiller at lightlink.com Mon Dec 7 16:26:45 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 16:26:45 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912062112g5515158fna5f6a1f3dfb3e952@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <9844155d0912061737y1059c86byd3c8528d1583e422@mail.gmail.com> <3C4F6B5D-6774-425B-9724-0DACA27A3383@ofb.biz> <9844155d0912061845kb753bcdjbd9f70db6aef2f83@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C89AB.8090702@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912062112g5515158fna5f6a1f3dfb3e952@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B1D7315.4070308@lightlink.com> On 12/07/2009 12:12 AM, David Kuntadi wrote: > On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 11:50 AM, Fred A. Miller wrote: > >> On 12/06/2009 09:45 PM, David Kuntadi wrote: >> >> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 9:07 AM, Timothy Butler wrote: >> >> >> Yes (but Jesus is a human, not divine in the Muslim view). It is also >> worth noting that during the earlier years, Islam was less militant than it >> is now, encouraged centers of learning that studied philosophy, classics, >> etc. and so on. Thomas Aquinas, for example, was deeply indebted to Muslim >> philosopher Averroes whom he referred to as "the Interpreter" for his work >> on the interpretation of Aristotle. >> >> >> There are two problems here: >> >> 1. If Jesus is not accepted as God in Quran, why Quran accepted that >> Jesus would come and judge the world? >> >> >> Ok......SHOW me, in the Quran where it says that. I already KNOW it doesn't! >> > I said, Quran accepts Jesus as the Judge of the world: > > http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/043.qmt.html#043.061 > > 043.061 > YUSUFALI: And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of > Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: > this is a Straight Way. > PICKTHAL: And lo! verily there is knowledge of the Hour. So doubt ye > not concerning it, but follow Me. This is the right path. > SHAKIR: And most surely it is a knowledge of the hour, therefore have > no doubt about it and follow me: this is the right path. > > So, why doas Quran accept Jesus as Judge of the world? > > It DOESN'T! You quote, "And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour....." which I'll have to check that reference when I get time, but the quote IN NO WAY says that he is the "Judge of the world." I fear you have a bad habit of reading into the Quran what others want you to "read" into it. Fred -- A REVOLUTIONARY IDEA! 'Time to put Nana Pelosi in a home!' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fmiller at lightlink.com Mon Dec 7 16:31:12 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 16:31:12 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <1260167475.7929.7.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <1260155138.6005.2.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912061922ic944803yf97881a6a08c16a8@mail.gmail.com> <1260167475.7929.7.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> Message-ID: <4B1D7420.3050705@lightlink.com> On 12/07/2009 01:31 AM, Mike McMullin wrote: > On Mon, 2009-12-07 at 10:22 +0700, David Kuntadi wrote: > >> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 10:05 AM, Mike McMullin wrote: >> >>> Is it actually an excuse to get the social reference right? I'm not >>> seeing an Oh, well he was such a nice guy in the reply, just a note as >>> to how reproachable a time it was. >>> >> Not only that, we also need an excuse for brutality in bible, isn't it? >> Num 31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD >> commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. >> Num 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and >> kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. >> > Actually we don't need any excuse as far as that quote goes, we need > to understand that God does what God does for reasons that do not always > make sense to us, and we would be arrogant to assume that they have to > make sense to us. Just my .0187 cents includes HST of course. > > No, you are 100% right! Some today try to dispel that reference and others, trying to diminish what God did then. Well, I have news for them. Wait till they see what he has in store for those who have rejected Christ as His son!! As has been said before, "you ain't seen nothin yet!!" Fred -- A REVOLUTIONARY IDEA! 'Time to put Nana Pelosi in a home!' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From d.kuntadi at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 18:32:13 2009 From: d.kuntadi at gmail.com (David Kuntadi) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 06:32:13 +0700 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <4B1D7420.3050705@lightlink.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <1260155138.6005.2.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912061922ic944803yf97881a6a08c16a8@mail.gmail.com> <1260167475.7929.7.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <4B1D7420.3050705@lightlink.com> Message-ID: <9844155d0912071532y7e062128q82d3b917a9f48997@mail.gmail.com> I am not sure why so much hatred here. What I have learnt is: Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; Our fellow Moslem is not even our enemy. But even if they are our enemy, we still should love them. DK From tbutler at ofb.biz Mon Dec 7 17:41:12 2009 From: tbutler at ofb.biz (Timothy Butler) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 16:41:12 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <4B1C9981.6060304@smalltimer.net> References: <4B1C9981.6060304@smalltimer.net> Message-ID: <255EBCD6-0A9C-46EC-BE81-29D4E514F52A@ofb.biz> On Dec 6, 2009, at 11:58 PM, David Ormand wrote: > I'm sure there were areas in medievel Islam, like wealthy sultan's > courts, where they were more "open-minded", but I don't think you > can say that ALL medievel Islam was like that. No, although I think with the certain rights granted to Christians and Jews during the period in Muslim lands, it is clear they were far more so than they are now. I wouldn't argue all were, of course. And things have clearly changed. But, no one was exactly open minded in our present, pluralistic sense back then. -Tim From tbutler at ofb.biz Mon Dec 7 17:37:38 2009 From: tbutler at ofb.biz (Timothy Butler) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 16:37:38 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912061845kb753bcdjbd9f70db6aef2f83@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <9844155d0912061737y1059c86byd3c8528d1583e422@mail.gmail.com> <3C4F6B5D-6774-425B-9724-0DACA27A3383@ofb.biz> <9844155d0912061845kb753bcdjbd9f70db6aef2f83@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <010236C8-5028-43FB-AB0E-3EB5D2446B55@ofb.biz> On Dec 6, 2009, at 8:45 PM, David Kuntadi wrote: > On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 9:07 AM, Timothy Butler wrote: >> Yes (but Jesus is a human, not divine in the Muslim view). It is also >> worth noting that during the earlier years, Islam was less militant than it >> is now, encouraged centers of learning that studied philosophy, classics, >> etc. and so on. Thomas Aquinas, for example, was deeply indebted to Muslim >> philosopher Averroes whom he referred to as "the Interpreter" for his work >> on the interpretation of Aristotle. > > There are two problems here: > > 1. If Jesus is not accepted as God in Quran, why Quran accepted that > Jesus would come and judge the world? He is the "messiah" and an important prophet to them. I'm not saying it makes a ton of sense. But, that is the Muslim belief. Jesus was never accepted as a deity within Islam. > 2. In the early christianity, not all christians accepted Jesus the > same as God. Only after Athanasius of Alexandria won the "Political > battle" against Arius then Athanasian Creed is accepted, trinitarian > was established. Indeed, there was debate. However, the clear majority appear to have been "orthodox" (to speak anachronistically) or -- this is better -- "Biblical." Arius was condemned as a heretic, of course. The Athanasian Creed, however, was not the deciding factor. The Nicene and Constantipolitan Creeds were. -Tim From preston.lists at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 19:13:58 2009 From: preston.lists at gmail.com (Preston Boyington) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 18:13:58 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <4B1D74DF.3010701@lightlink.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <1260155138.6005.2.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912061922ic944803yf97881a6a08c16a8@mail.gmail.com> <1260167475.7929.7.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912062243x1e2b2234r4c281a577491ce1d@mail.gmail.com> <4B1D74DF.3010701@lightlink.com> Message-ID: <4B1D9A46.6040000@gmail.com> Fred A. Miller wrote: > I suppose, except that their "god," the name of which was originally a > "moon god," is NOT the god of the universe. Being wrong is still wrong, > no matter how you cut it. > correct. Abraham was called out of the Ur of the Chaldees where the predominant religion was the worship of the moon god. The moon god was called 'Sin' (not quite how we use it in English) in Assyria, Al-Ilah in Arabia, and later Allah (even before Mohammed reshaped the religion into its' current monotheistic form). The worship of Al-Ilah, the moon god, was the predecessor to Islam and the crescent moon is still found in and on Islamic mosques. oh, if you read in Judges about Gideon you will come across Zebah and Zalmunna. these are two kings that Gideon slays then the bible says he 'took away the ornaments that were on the camels' necks.' an interesting thing is that the word 'ornament' in Hebrew is 'saharon'. it refers, specifically, to an ornamental crescent moon. another tidbit is the city of Jericho (or Yeriho in Hebrew) whose name actually means 'city of the moon god'. i remember that the bible speaks of the Captain of the Lord's host (Jesus) leading the battle there. From d.kuntadi at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 19:19:34 2009 From: d.kuntadi at gmail.com (David Kuntadi) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 07:19:34 +0700 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <4B1D9A46.6040000@gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <1260155138.6005.2.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912061922ic944803yf97881a6a08c16a8@mail.gmail.com> <1260167475.7929.7.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912062243x1e2b2234r4c281a577491ce1d@mail.gmail.com> <4B1D74DF.3010701@lightlink.com> <4B1D9A46.6040000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9844155d0912071619q1a801552i30bf82b77508008@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 7:13 AM, Preston Boyington wrote: > correct. > > Abraham was called out of the Ur of the Chaldees where the predominant > religion was the worship of the moon god. ?The moon god was called 'Sin' > (not quite how we use it in English) in Assyria, Al-Ilah in Arabia, and > later Allah (even before Mohammed reshaped the religion into its' > current monotheistic form). ?The worship of Al-Ilah, the moon god, was > the predecessor to Islam and the crescent moon is still found in and on > Islamic mosques. But even Moses teach Israelites to worship Serpent brass Num 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived. And it works!!!! DK From fmiller at lightlink.com Mon Dec 7 19:19:50 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 19:19:50 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912071532y7e062128q82d3b917a9f48997@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <1260155138.6005.2.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912061922ic944803yf97881a6a08c16a8@mail.gmail.com> <1260167475.7929.7.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <4B1D7420.3050705@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912071532y7e062128q82d3b917a9f48997@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B1D9BA6.4090609@lightlink.com> On 12/07/2009 06:32 PM, David Kuntadi wrote: > I am not sure why so much hatred here. What I have learnt is: > > Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy > neighbour, and hate thine enemy. > Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse > you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which > despitefully use you, and persecute you; > > Our fellow Moslem is not even our enemy. But even if they are our > enemy, we still should love them. > > You DON'T understand. We love them, NOT what they are...two different things. And, I KNOW better than to trust them.....no more than I would a cobra not to strike me in the leg as soon as I wasn't watching! Fred -- "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." --George Washington -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From htgage3 at chartermi.net Mon Dec 7 20:02:31 2009 From: htgage3 at chartermi.net (htgage3 at chartermi.net) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 17:02:31 -0800 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912071619q1a801552i30bf82b77508008@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091207200231.546AP.254496.root@mp14> ---- David Kuntadi wrote: > On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 7:13 AM, Preston Boyington > wrote: > > correct. > > > > Abraham was called out of the Ur of the Chaldees where the predominant > > religion was the worship of the moon god. ?The moon god was called 'Sin' > > (not quite how we use it in English) in Assyria, Al-Ilah in Arabia, and > > later Allah (even before Mohammed reshaped the religion into its' > > current monotheistic form). ?The worship of Al-Ilah, the moon god, was > > the predecessor to Islam and the crescent moon is still found in and on > > Islamic mosques. > > But even Moses teach Israelites to worship Serpent brass No, no, no Moses _did_not teach the Israelites to worship the brass serpent. Moses was a type of Christ, not the actual Christ, but a type of Christ. Moses had them to look at the brass serpent to be kept from death. This is symbolic of what we do today with the real Christ, we look to Him for salvation, salvation from death everlasting. The muslims do not look to Christ for that. They think that they will have 70 virgins awaiting them in a "heaven." One thing, those virgins can be man or woman! Second thing, there won't be any virgins awaiting them in a fiery hell not made for mankind. They choose to serve a god that isn't even a god! There god cannot give life, make anything, do anything, be anywhere all at once, know our every thought, cannot give eternal life, only eternal damnation, hates mankind, and will do anything to destroy mankind and those who serve the living God. > Num 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, > and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he > beheld the serpent of brass, he lived. > > And it works!!!! > > DK > _______________________________________________ > Linux4christians mailing list > Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians From d.kuntadi at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 20:10:15 2009 From: d.kuntadi at gmail.com (David Kuntadi) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 08:10:15 +0700 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <4B1D9BA6.4090609@lightlink.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <1260155138.6005.2.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912061922ic944803yf97881a6a08c16a8@mail.gmail.com> <1260167475.7929.7.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <4B1D7420.3050705@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912071532y7e062128q82d3b917a9f48997@mail.gmail.com> <4B1D9BA6.4090609@lightlink.com> Message-ID: <9844155d0912071710t5719f3b5v1a210be2261a3ab6@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 7:19 AM, Fred A. Miller wrote: > You DON'T understand. We love them, NOT what they are...two different > things. And, I KNOW better than to trust them.....no more than I would a > cobra > not to strike me in the leg as soon as I wasn't watching! Well, I tell you a story about what is happening in Indonesia. Some ALLEGEDLY Moslem extremist bombed many churches in 2000, during Christmas celebration. >From then on, we are very worried every Christmas. But many so called "moderate Moslem", send their people during christmas for subsequent years to guard all churches in Indonesia so as we could celebrate christmas without fear. They are Ikatan Mahasiswa Muhammadiyah (IMM), Banser Nahdlatul Ulama, and Forum Betawi Rempug. Not only that, even the hindus and Buddhist also join hand to make sure all churches are safe during Christmas. That is what happening in Indonesia. DK From fmiller at lightlink.com Tue Dec 8 06:18:29 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 06:18:29 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <4B1D9A46.6040000@gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <1260155138.6005.2.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912061922ic944803yf97881a6a08c16a8@mail.gmail.com> <1260167475.7929.7.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912062243x1e2b2234r4c281a577491ce1d@mail.gmail.com> <4B1D74DF.3010701@lightlink.com> <4B1D9A46.6040000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B1E3605.4030706@lightlink.com> On 12/07/2009 07:13 PM, Preston Boyington wrote: > Fred A. Miller wrote: > > > >> I suppose, except that their "god," the name of which was originally a >> "moon god," is NOT the god of the universe. Being wrong is still wrong, >> no matter how you cut it. >> >> > correct. > > Abraham was called out of the Ur of the Chaldees where the predominant > religion was the worship of the moon god. The moon god was called 'Sin' > (not quite how we use it in English) in Assyria, Al-Ilah in Arabia, and > later Allah (even before Mohammed reshaped the religion into its' > current monotheistic form). The worship of Al-Ilah, the moon god, was > the predecessor to Islam and the crescent moon is still found in and on > Islamic mosques. > Correct! > oh, if you read in Judges about Gideon you will come across Zebah and > Zalmunna. these are two kings that Gideon slays then the bible says he > 'took away the ornaments that were on the camels' necks.' > > an interesting thing is that the word 'ornament' in Hebrew is 'saharon'. > it refers, specifically, to an ornamental crescent moon. > That is what I understood as well. > another tidbit is the city of Jericho (or Yeriho in Hebrew) whose name > actually means 'city of the moon god'. i remember that the bible speaks > of the Captain of the Lord's host (Jesus) leading the battle there. > MOST of what we need to know, IS in Scripture....all we have to do, is read it. To understand Islam, all one needs to do is read the Quran. The errors and contradictions are many, so obviously it's NOT an inspired word from God, which is one of the /*many*/ things that tells me it's bogus from beginning to end. As I said earlier, I'm in a unique position, but one I have to keep quiet about. So, that's why I talk about the Linux boxen I take care of, etc. 'Can't talk about part of my life. :( Fred -- "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." --George Washington -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fmiller at lightlink.com Mon Dec 7 21:05:36 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 21:05:36 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912071710t5719f3b5v1a210be2261a3ab6@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <1260155138.6005.2.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912061922ic944803yf97881a6a08c16a8@mail.gmail.com> <1260167475.7929.7.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <4B1D7420.3050705@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912071532y7e062128q82d3b917a9f48997@mail.gmail.com> <4B1D9BA6.4090609@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912071710t5719f3b5v1a210be2261a3ab6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B1DB470.3080704@lightlink.com> On 12/07/2009 08:10 PM, David Kuntadi wrote: > On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 7:19 AM, Fred A. Miller wrote: > >> You DON'T understand. We love them, NOT what they are...two different >> things. And, I KNOW better than to trust them.....no more than I would a >> cobra >> not to strike me in the leg as soon as I wasn't watching! >> > Well, I tell you a story about what is happening in Indonesia. > Some ALLEGEDLY Moslem extremist bombed many churches in 2000, during > Christmas celebration. From then on, we are very worried every Christmas. > I have a Chineese Christian friend who has lived there for sometime.....I know what goes on there, plus I keep tabs on VOM. > But many so called "moderate Moslem", send their people during > christmas for subsequent years to guard all churches in Indonesia so > as we could celebrate christmas without fear. They are Ikatan > Mahasiswa Muhammadiyah (IMM), Banser Nahdlatul Ulama, and Forum Betawi > Rempug. > > Not only that, even the hindus and Buddhist also join hand to make > sure all churches are safe during Christmas. > That is what happening in Indonesia. > I see this happening in Indonesia, just for a few items.............. Riots erupt over Christian teacher's alleged blasphemy http://www.persecution.net/id-2008-12-17.htm Elderly Christian couple murdered http://www.persecution.net/id-2009-04-29.htm Christians ordered to stop worshiping in home http://www.persecution.net/id-2009-10-07.htm Recently, Muslims closed a church in Jatimula, Bekasi, West Java, Indonesia and blocked Christians from entering and holding services. http://www.persecution.com/public/newsroom.aspx?story_ID=NjQ%3d Two families were driven from their villages in West Java, Indonesia, in March after they converted to Christianity from Islam, according to The Voice of the Martyrs contacts. http://www.persecution.com/public/newsroom.aspx?story_ID=MTMw On Oct.27, The Voice of the Martyrs contacts reported nearly 1,000 Arastamar Bible school students face eviction from a West Jarkata Mayors office building where they were living temporarily, in Indonesia. http://www.persecution.com/public/newsroom.aspx?story_ID=MTk4 -- "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." --George Washington -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Mon Dec 7 23:10:39 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 23:10:39 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] =?utf-8?b?4oCtSmFtZXMgMjoxLTEzIChUdWVzZGF5KQ==?= Message-ID: <4B1DD1BF.5090600@bibleseven.com> *?James 2:1-13 (Tuesday)* *?Commentary* Paul clearly identifies his audience as those who "possess faith in our Lord Jesus Christ"; This is a message for believers. Then he challenges them (us) to consider how they (we) treat a person of unknown faith, when the person enters our place of worship, looking only at their appearance "if someone comes into your assembly wearing a gold ring and fine clothing, and a poor person enters in filthy clothes". He then gets more specific "do you pay attention to the one who is finely dressed and say, ?You sit here in a good place,? and to the poor person, ?You stand over there,? or ?Sit on the floor??" And finally he questions their heart-condition: "If so, have you not made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil motives?" In 1 Timothy 5:21 the apostle Paul challenges Timothy, and every leader "Before God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, I solemnly charge you to carry out these commands without prejudice or favoritism of any kind." A leader must never be chosen based on his worldly success but only for his spiritual maturity and the observed calling and gifting of the Holy Spirit for ministry. A leader must never make decisions about care-giving, fellowship, outreach, or participation based on worldly priorities but only the priorities modeled by Jesus and taught in the Word of God. Jesus and Paul, and here James, address the frequent divide between the rich and the poor, a divide that far too often includes one of shallow versus true faith. [Note: Remember the Story of the Rich Man from Mark 10:17-31] Have we not all observed that the distractions of money, the pursuit of money, and the way that money may insulate us from many of the challenges of life - sometimes leads us also to a sense that we don't need God? It can be a subtle drift ... it is not as though we suddenly say "OK, I am comfortable with my income-to-debt ratio, so Hey God - you can take a break - I'll handle it from here." It happens in small increments, we start skipping our times of personal Bible study and the extra activities at church (the gathering of believers) - unless, of course, we need to be there to network there for our business. Then we start making excuses for missing our small group study. After that we miss more and more Sunday morning times of worship, and eventually we have all-but placed God and His people into a picture frame on the wall next to our certificate of club membership and our 3 year old award for public service. Jesus, God in human flesh, chose to arrive at Christmas - born to a poor family. He said "Foxes have dens, and the birds in the sky 1 have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.? And He died with nothing of the world in His possession. While Jesus dined with poor and rich alike, healed poor and rich alike, and welcomed poor and rich alike - one cannot help but observe that He appeared to invest most of His time and energy among the poor and what we'd call the middle-class today - finding little welcome and less response among the rich. "Did not God choose the poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that he promised to those who love him?" James is not saying that God prefers the poor over the rich, he has said elsewhere that He "Is no respecter of persons", meaning that one's standing in the opinion of man has no bearing on God's opinion of you - God seeks a heart-relationship with anyone, rich or poor. What James is saying is that the rich in his day were obsessed with maintaining their sinful lifestyles and the teaching of Christ made them uncomfortable. James reminds his readers that, because of their fear of the teaching of Jesus that God loves the poor and the rich equally, they (the rich) "blaspheme the good name of the one you belong to". I have observed that working men are unlikely to be surprised by, or to disagree with, the Biblical teaching that people are not naturally good - but are instead naturally drawn toward selfishness and sin. I have also observed that the rich, or those otherwise isolated from the daily challenges of the working world, tend to think of people as essentially good. It is generally the case that the rich are less likely to sense a need for God because they are more insulated from the daily struggle for food and clothing and shelter - and the rich tend to have the discretionary time to reflect upon alternative human explanations of the origins and value of man. We honor those in need with our love and resources because they are loved by God, they are less likely to disrespect God, and because Jesus said so! "2:8 But if you fulfill the royal law as expressed in this scripture, ?You shall love your neighbor as yourself,? you are doing well. 2:9 But if you show prejudice, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as violators. 2:10 For the one who obeys the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. 2:11 For he who said, ?Do not commit adultery,? also said, ?Do not murder.? Now if you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a violator of the law. 2:12 Speak and act as those who will be judged by a law that gives freedom. 2:13 For judgment is merciless for the one who has shown no mercy. But mercy triumphs over judgment." Jesus commanded that His followers "love your neighbor as yourself? then James explains that doing so will "fulfill the royal law" - and therefore "you are doing well" - we need to understand that there is a huge difference between trying to keep the letter of the Law and an act from the heart - in cooperation with the Holy Spirit. James makes reference to the Law so we need to understand the New Testament teaching as to the purpose of the Law - it is to convict us of our distance from God. It is important to note that the Law permits no failure - one must meet it perfectly in every detail or fail completely "For the one who obeys the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. For he who said, ?Do not commit adultery,? also said, ?Do not murder.? Now if you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a violator of the law." Therefore James reminds his readers "But if you show prejudice, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as violators." He also reminds us that if we are without mercy, a failure to reflect the heart of God, we have no cause to expect God to treat us with mercy. I believe that it was Abraham Lincoln who wrote "?Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." Pointless-prejudice is just plain dumb! We all have "prejudices", or perhaps it is safer to use the term "preferences", but prejudice based on ignorance is destructive to communities and to our spiritual well-being. Racial prejudice is one of the dumbest of all - skin color tells one nothing about the heart or the mind. James concludes "Speak and act as those who will be judged by a law that gives freedom. For judgment is merciless for the one who has shown no mercy. But mercy triumphs over judgment." The new "Law" of Jesus, for those who are saved, is grounded in mercy and not performance. The person whom a healthy person treats with the greatest patience and respect, providing the most resources and time to - is oneself. Jesus wants us to share the same consideration and "slack" we give ourselves with others. He is always most concerned with the condition of our hearts, endeavoring to transform our imperfect and selfish hearts into hearts overflowing with God's love. In our imperfection we are ugly to God, so much so that were we to be in His presence, His perfection would destroy us. Yet He came to us and provided a way back for us, taking our ugliness upon Himself, so that our relationship with Him might be restored. How little He asks that we show the same heart of mercy toward others. *Interaction* ? *Consider* what God has tolerated, and responded to with mercy, from ?His creation - from the Garden of Eden and throughout history until now - so that we might be restored to right-relationship with Him for eternity. Also consider the distractions of money, the pursuit of money, and the way that money may insulate us from many of the challenges of life - sometimes leads us also to a sense that we don't need God? *Discuss* some practical ways that we might make the practice of mercy an integral and instinctive part of our lives. Discuss also some practical ways that we may avoid the subtle drift ... the small increments, we start skipping our times of personal Bible study and the extra activities at church (the gathering of believers) - unless, of course, we need to be there to network there for our business. Then we start making excuses for missing our small group study. After that we miss more and more Sunday morning times of worship, and eventually we have all-but placed God and His people into a picture frame on the wall next to our certificate of club membership and our 3 year old award for public service. *Reflect* upon the ignorance of prejudice that is based upon anything other than the "God Standard" - salvation or potential for salvation, loving others as-ourselves, and a heart of mercy. Reflect also upon the observation that working men are unlikely to be surprised by, or to disagree with, the Biblical teaching that people are not naturally good - but are instead naturally drawn toward selfishness and sin. Have you observed that the rich, or those otherwise isolated from the daily challenges of the working world, tend to think of people as essentially good. *Share* an example of mercy given to you, despite the circumstances challenging the person or persons who were merciful, to rationalize ignoring or mistreating you. Share also an example of a fellowship or other gathering (work, school, family, club, etc.) that was challenged by the unexpected arrival of someone who didn't fit the social norm. How was it handled and what was the outcome. If not handled well, or the outcome was not good, how might it have been handled differently in light of James' teaching? *Truth in Action* ?Today I am choosing to identify a person (at fellowship, school, work, or elsewhere) whom I have judged, even partly, based only on exterior appearance or a very shallow interaction. I agree to pray for them and also for an opportunity to get to know them better. *Be Specific* _______________________________________ ---------------------------------------- Wednesday's text will be: James 2:14-26 ---------------------------------------- -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From d.kuntadi at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 23:40:28 2009 From: d.kuntadi at gmail.com (David Kuntadi) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:40:28 +0700 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <4B1E3605.4030706@lightlink.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <1260155138.6005.2.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912061922ic944803yf97881a6a08c16a8@mail.gmail.com> <1260167475.7929.7.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912062243x1e2b2234r4c281a577491ce1d@mail.gmail.com> <4B1D74DF.3010701@lightlink.com> <4B1D9A46.6040000@gmail.com> <4B1E3605.4030706@lightlink.com> Message-ID: <9844155d0912072040l776aa80ax8be649e1fe3f3153@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 6:18 PM, Fred A. Miller wrote: > So, that's why I talk about the Linux boxen I take care of, etc. Actually I join this list is for linux discussion only, not for theological discussion. Because even in Indonesia, there are so many types of Christians, and it is difficult to reconcile all of the teaching. If all of the teachings could be reconciled, all of us would become Catholic..... I guess. DK From fmiller at lightlink.com Tue Dec 8 00:06:07 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 00:06:07 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912072040l776aa80ax8be649e1fe3f3153@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <1260155138.6005.2.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912061922ic944803yf97881a6a08c16a8@mail.gmail.com> <1260167475.7929.7.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912062243x1e2b2234r4c281a577491ce1d@mail.gmail.com> <4B1D74DF.3010701@lightlink.com> <4B1D9A46.6040000@gmail.com> <4B1E3605.4030706@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912072040l776aa80ax8be649e1fe3f3153@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B1DDEBF.7010709@lightlink.com> On 12/07/2009 11:40 PM, David Kuntadi wrote: > On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 6:18 PM, Fred A. Miller wrote: > >> So, that's why I talk about the Linux boxen I take care of, etc. >> > Actually I join this list is for linux discussion only, not for > theological discussion. > Because even in Indonesia, there are so many types of Christians, and > it is difficult to reconcile all of the teaching. > If all of the teachings could be reconciled, all of us would become > Catholic..... I guess. > No, not necessarily. There is really only ONE "type" of Christian. There are some theological differences, but the Biblical deffinition is simple and has nothing to do with anything else. Fred -- "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." --George Washington -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tbutler at ofb.biz Tue Dec 8 01:00:24 2009 From: tbutler at ofb.biz (Timothy Butler) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 00:00:24 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912072040l776aa80ax8be649e1fe3f3153@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <1260155138.6005.2.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912061922ic944803yf97881a6a08c16a8@mail.gmail.com> <1260167475.7929.7.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912062243x1e2b2234r4c281a577491ce1d@mail.gmail.com> <4B1D74DF.3010701@lightlink.com> <4B1D9A46.6040000@gmail.com> <4B1E3605.4030706@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912072040l776aa80ax8be649e1fe3f3153@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <57FBCD31-E04E-48A6-A22A-F13359EAB802@ofb.biz> On Dec 7, 2009, at 10:40 PM, David Kuntadi wrote: > If all of the teachings could be reconciled, all of us would become > Catholic..... I guess. Catholic does refer to the universal church... You could do worse, at any rate. -Tim From fmiller at lightlink.com Tue Dec 8 01:52:45 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 01:52:45 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <57FBCD31-E04E-48A6-A22A-F13359EAB802@ofb.biz> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <1260155138.6005.2.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912061922ic944803yf97881a6a08c16a8@mail.gmail.com> <1260167475.7929.7.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912062243x1e2b2234r4c281a577491ce1d@mail.gmail.com> <4B1D74DF.3010701@lightlink.com> <4B1D9A46.6040000@gmail.com> <4B1E3605.4030706@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912072040l776aa80ax8be649e1fe3f3153@mail.gmail.com> <57FBCD31-E04E-48A6-A22A-F13359EAB802@ofb.biz> Message-ID: <4B1DF7BD.3080009@lightlink.com> On 12/08/2009 01:00 AM, Timothy Butler wrote: > > On Dec 7, 2009, at 10:40 PM, David Kuntadi wrote: > >> If all of the teachings could be reconciled, all of us would become >> Catholic..... I guess. > > Catholic does refer to the universal church... You could do worse, at > any rate. > True......get rid of things like penances which aren't Scriptural, and it wouldn't be bad. Fred -- "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." --George Washington -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Tue Dec 8 08:11:04 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 08:11:04 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912071532y7e062128q82d3b917a9f48997@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <1260155138.6005.2.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912061922ic944803yf97881a6a08c16a8@mail.gmail.com> <1260167475.7929.7.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <4B1D7420.3050705@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912071532y7e062128q82d3b917a9f48997@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B1E5068.6090902@bibleseven.com> God *hates* sin. God says that those who worship anyone or anything else *hate* truth and therefore *hate* Him. No one here has said that they *hate" people who are Muslims, the point is about *hating* the *sin* which created the religion and the *hate* which is embedded within it. To really understand the problem with the Quran you have to be a better student; Note the chronological development of the book, first Muhammed tried to copy the essence of the NT and other "friendly" sounding texts, when that didn't work he swung to the other extreme. The clear intent of the Biblical text you quoted, and many others, is that we pray that our "enemies" will be saved and thus will share the joy of our salvation and become our brothers. The clear intent of the Biblical text is never to excuse false religions or to manufacture a false sense of moral or authoritative equivalence. There is only one God and one way to Heaven - everything else is from the father of lies - Satan - and condemns people to death. There is no middle ground. Period. > I am not sure why so much hatred here. What I have learnt > is: > > Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou > shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. Mat 5:44 > But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that > curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for > them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; > > Our fellow Moslem is not even our enemy. But even if they > are our enemy, we still should love them. > > DK -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From preston.lists at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 08:43:21 2009 From: preston.lists at gmail.com (Preston Boyington) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 07:43:21 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912071710t5719f3b5v1a210be2261a3ab6@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <1260155138.6005.2.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912061922ic944803yf97881a6a08c16a8@mail.gmail.com> <1260167475.7929.7.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <4B1D7420.3050705@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912071532y7e062128q82d3b917a9f48997@mail.gmail.com> <4B1D9BA6.4090609@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912071710t5719f3b5v1a210be2261a3ab6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B1E57F9.9040708@gmail.com> David Kuntadi wrote: > Well, I tell you a story about what is happening in Indonesia. > Some ALLEGEDLY Moslem extremist bombed many churches in 2000, during > Christmas celebration. my heart goes out to you and others in a similar situation. it is very easy to be openly Christian where i live. almost expected really. From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Tue Dec 8 14:50:26 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 14:50:26 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <4B1E57F9.9040708@gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <1260155138.6005.2.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912061922ic944803yf97881a6a08c16a8@mail.gmail.com> <1260167475.7929.7.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <4B1D7420.3050705@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912071532y7e062128q82d3b917a9f48997@mail.gmail.com> <4B1D9BA6.4090609@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912071710t5719f3b5v1a210be2261a3ab6@mail.gmail.com> <4B1E57F9.9040708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B1EAE02.5080508@bibleseven.com> There is ridicule and open scorn for serious Christians in many parts of America - not only Hollywood, the media, and Democrat politicians but also in the educational establishment - all the way up into the colleges. It seems most prevalent in northern states, perhaps explaining why they are so pro-Democrat, and they are trying to impose their sneering and arrogant disdain for Jesus into laws and policies and regulations wherever possible. American Christians will soon know much of the hate that has been commonplace in much of the rest of the world all too soon - unless there is a move-of-God among the opinion-leaders in entertainment, information, and politics. > Preston Boyington wrote: > David Kuntadi wrote: >> Well, I tell you a story about what is happening in >> Indonesia. Some ALLEGEDLY Moslem extremist bombed many >> churches in 2000, during Christmas celebration. > > my heart goes out to you and others in a similar > situation. it is very easy to be openly Christian where > i live. almost expected really. -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From bstaggs at staggs.net Tue Dec 8 19:56:26 2009 From: bstaggs at staggs.net (Billy Staggs) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 18:56:26 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] [SPAM] Re: Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <4B1EAE02.5080508@bibleseven.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <1260155138.6005.2.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912061922ic944803yf97881a6a08c16a8@mail.gmail.com> <1260167475.7929.7.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <4B1D7420.3050705@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912071532y7e062128q82d3b917a9f48997@mail.gmail.com> <4B1D9BA6.4090609@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912071710t5719f3b5v1a210be2261a3ab6@mail.gmail.com> <4B1E57F9.9040708@gmail.com> <4B1EAE02.5080508@bibleseven.com> Message-ID: I don't know about the rest of the world, but down here (south central US) the distrust for the government is at an all time high. Think pre Civil war era. We thought it was a complement when the President said "they cling to their Religion and guns." :-) -- bstaggs <>< > -----Original Message----- > From: linux4christians-bounces at thelinuxlink.net [mailto:linux4christians- > bounces at thelinuxlink.net] On Behalf Of Pastor David > Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 1:50 PM > To: Linux for Christians > Subject: [SPAM] Re: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech > disrupted by arson. > > There is ridicule and open scorn for serious Christians > in many parts of America - not only Hollywood, the media, > and Democrat politicians but also in the educational > establishment - all the way up into the colleges. > > It seems most prevalent in northern states, perhaps > explaining why they are so pro-Democrat, and they are > trying to impose their sneering and arrogant disdain > for Jesus into laws and policies and regulations > wherever possible. > From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Tue Dec 8 20:09:29 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 20:09:29 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] [SPAM] Re: Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <1260155138.6005.2.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912061922ic944803yf97881a6a08c16a8@mail.gmail.com> <1260167475.7929.7.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <4B1D7420.3050705@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912071532y7e062128q82d3b917a9f48997@mail.gmail.com> <4B1D9BA6.4090609@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912071710t5719f3b5v1a210be2261a3ab6@mail.gmail.com> <4B1E57F9.9040708@gmail.com> <4B1EAE02.5080508@bibleseven.com> Message-ID: <4B1EF8C9.7030000@bibleseven.com> We are in SE Georgia and that sure is true here - but it does not appear to be new - it has been growing for decades probably since FDR and certainly since LBJ. Not even Ronald Reagan was able to halt the growth of the invasive and expensive government, he merely slowed the rate of growth and tried to limit some of the invasiveness. It is like a malignant tumor. > I don't know about the rest of the world, but down here > (south central US) the distrust for the government is at > an all time high. Think pre Civil war era. We thought it > was a complement when the President said "they cling to > their Religion and guns." :-) > > -- bstaggs <>< -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From htgage3 at chartermi.net Tue Dec 8 20:21:58 2009 From: htgage3 at chartermi.net (htgage3 at chartermi.net) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 20:21:58 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <4B1DDEBF.7010709@lightlink.com> Message-ID: <20091208202158.SE9AQ.326514.root@mp07> ---- "Fred A. Miller" wrote: > On 12/07/2009 11:40 PM, David Kuntadi wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 6:18 PM, Fred A. Miller wrote: > > > >> So, that's why I talk about the Linux boxen I take care of, etc. > >> > > Actually I join this list is for linux discussion only, not for > > theological discussion. > > Because even in Indonesia, there are so many types of Christians, and > > it is difficult to reconcile all of the teaching. > > If all of the teachings could be reconciled, all of us would become > > Catholic..... I guess. > > > > No, not necessarily. There is really only ONE "type" of Christian. There > are > some theological differences, but the Biblical deffinition is simple and > has > nothing to do with anything else. There are those Christians who are in the Bride of Christ and those who aren't. > Fred > > -- > "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, > but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to > maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt > to abuse them, which would include their own government." > --George Washington > From dodds at conmergence.com Tue Dec 8 14:57:06 2009 From: dodds at conmergence.com (Ed Dodds) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 13:57:06 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] FW: It's finally here: Google Chrome for Mac. Available today in beta! Message-ID: <5B2D465B708044AC820C56A10B8C8DFE@Conmergence> FYI Ed Dodds _____ From: Google Chrome [mailto:googlechromenews at google.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 11:35 AM To: dodds at conmergence.com Subject: It's finally here: Google Chrome for Mac. Available today in beta! Google Chrome It's finally here: Google Chrome for Mac. Available today in beta! Hi there, Thanks for signing up to hear from us regarding Google Chrome for Mac! We're excited to let you know that Google Chrome is now available in beta for Mac OS X. Here are a few fun facts from us on the Google Chrome for Mac team: * 73,804 lines of Mac-specific code written * 29 developer builds * 1,177 Mac-specific bugs fixed * 12 external committers and bug editors to the Google Chrome for Mac code base, 48 external code contributors * 64 Mac Minis doing continuous builds and tests * 8,760 cups of soft drinks and coffee consumed * 4,380 frosted mini-wheats eaten Thanks for waiting and we hope you'll give Google Chrome for Mac a whirl. Google Chrome Team www.google.com/chrome -------- C 2009 Google www.google.com 1600 Amphitheatre Parkway, Mountain View CA 94043 United States of America. Google is a trademark of Google Inc. All other company and product names may be trademarks of the respective companies with which they are associated. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From htgage3 at chartermi.net Tue Dec 8 20:30:01 2009 From: htgage3 at chartermi.net (htgage3 at chartermi.net) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 17:30:01 -0800 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <57FBCD31-E04E-48A6-A22A-F13359EAB802@ofb.biz> Message-ID: <20091208203002.RM8IM.327076.root@mp07> ---- Timothy Butler wrote: > > On Dec 7, 2009, at 10:40 PM, David Kuntadi wrote: > > > If all of the teachings could be reconciled, all of us would become > > Catholic..... I guess. > > Catholic does refer to the universal church... You could do worse, at > any rate. That's my point! I have 4 universals in my truck! There is NO such thing as a universal church! When the Bible was being written, it was only to local, visible churches only, there were no universal churches at that time, as the Catholic church had not come into being yet. And the church that Christ started, was already in existence! Check the Scriptures to see. refs: Mt 16:18, note that Peter was refered to as a little pebble, or stone, while Christ is _the_rock, the rock that is immovable. Also check Mt 18:16, this refers to the church as being in existence. I've got more to say, but cannot right now, granddaughter needs me. > -Tim > _______________________________________________ > Linux4christians mailing list > Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians From fmiller at lightlink.com Tue Dec 8 20:36:43 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 20:36:43 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] [SPAM] Re: Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <1260155138.6005.2.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912061922ic944803yf97881a6a08c16a8@mail.gmail.com> <1260167475.7929.7.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <4B1D7420.3050705@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912071532y7e062128q82d3b917a9f48997@mail.gmail.com> <4B1D9BA6.4090609@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912071710t5719f3b5v1a210be2261a3ab6@mail.gmail.com> <4B1E57F9.9040708@gmail.com> <4B1EAE02.5080508@bibleseven.com> Message-ID: <4B1EFF2B.6030705@lightlink.com> On 12/08/2009 07:56 PM, Billy Staggs wrote: > I don't know about the rest of the world, but down here (south central US) > the distrust for the government is at an all time high. Think pre Civil war > era. We thought it was a complement when the President said "they cling to > their Religion and guns." :-) > [snip] >From what I hear, that's pretty much the sentiment almost everywhere. The exceptions are places like NY City, Chicago, LA, 'Frisco, Seattle, etc. where there are large numbers of illegals and 5th generation welfare recipients, etc. Those who have made a living existing on tax payer funds are sure to support the hand(s) who keep feeding them. Fred -- "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." --George Washington -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From samuel.clough at trumpetsofzion.org Tue Dec 8 20:38:16 2009 From: samuel.clough at trumpetsofzion.org (Samuel Clough) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 19:38:16 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] FW: It's finally here: Google Chrome for Mac. Available today in beta! In-Reply-To: <5B2D465B708044AC820C56A10B8C8DFE@Conmergence> References: <5B2D465B708044AC820C56A10B8C8DFE@Conmergence> Message-ID: <7af3c5520912081738l7d505210l3750014ebc8b915f@mail.gmail.com> I actually wasn't wild about chrome when it first hit, but I've been using it on my Mac for the last month or so and it'd become my default browser... Since this is the Linux list, I think the Linux version came into beta as well... On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 1:57 PM, Ed Dodds wrote: > FYI > > Ed Dodds > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Google Chrome [mailto:googlechromenews at google.com] > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 08, 2009 11:35 AM > *To:* dodds at conmergence.com > *Subject:* It's finally here: Google Chrome for Mac. Available today in > beta! > > [image: Google Chrome] It's finally here: Google Chrome for Mac. Available > today in beta! > > Hi there, > > Thanks for signing up to hear from us regarding Google Chrome for Mac! > We're excited to let you know that Google Chrome is now available in beta > for Mac OS X. > > Here are a few fun facts from us on the Google Chrome for Mac team: > > - 73,804 lines of Mac-specific code written > - 29 developer builds > - 1,177 Mac-specific bugs fixed > - 12 external committers and bug editors to the Google Chrome for Mac > code base, 48 external code contributors > - 64 Mac Minis doing continuous builds and tests > - 8,760 cups of soft drinks and coffee consumed > - 4,380 frosted mini-wheats eaten > > Thanks for waiting and > we hope you'll give Google Chrome for Mac a whirl. > > Google Chrome Team > www.google.com/chrome > > -------- > > ? 2009 Google www.google.com 1600 Amphitheatre Parkway, Mountain View CA > 94043 United States of America. > > Google is a trademark of Google Inc. All other company and product names > may be trademarks of the respective companies with which they are > associated. > > _______________________________________________ > Linux4christians mailing list > Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Tue Dec 8 21:23:28 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 21:23:28 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Bride of Christ [Was: Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson.] In-Reply-To: <20091208202158.SE9AQ.326514.root@mp07> References: <20091208202158.SE9AQ.326514.root@mp07> Message-ID: <4B1F0A20.8070904@bibleseven.com> What does this mean, please? > There are those Christians who are in the Bride of Christ > and those who aren't. -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Tue Dec 8 21:31:09 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 21:31:09 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <20091208203002.RM8IM.327076.root@mp07> References: <20091208203002.RM8IM.327076.root@mp07> Message-ID: <4B1F0BED.1040903@bibleseven.com> The word pronounced "ca-thol-ic" roughly means the same thing we mean when we say "universal" as in having the most critical unifying elements in common despite non- critical differences. The Apostle Paul allowed for local stylistic and maturity differences to be tolerated with grace. The Roman Catholic and Orthodox religious institutions are much later and less "pure" than the early and most-true Biblical Christian "universal Church" (genuinely saved though geographically dispersed) family of believers - "saints" or "children of God". The Roman Catholic religious/political institution would like to intentionally blur the distinction but there is in-fact a chasm of difference. > ---- Timothy Butler wrote: >> On Dec 7, 2009, at 10:40 PM, David Kuntadi wrote: >> >>> If all of the teachings could be reconciled, all of >>> us would become Catholic..... I guess. >> Catholic does refer to the universal church... You >> could do worse, at any rate. > > That's my point! I have 4 universals in my truck! There > is NO such thing as a universal church! When the Bible > was being written, it was only to local, visible churches > only, there were no universal churches at that time, as > the Catholic church had not come into being yet. And the > church that Christ started, was already in existence! > Check the Scriptures to see. refs: Mt 16:18, note that > Peter was refered to as a little pebble, or stone, while > Christ is _the_rock, the rock that is immovable. Also > check Mt 18:16, this refers to the church as being in > existence. I've got more to say, but cannot right now, > granddaughter needs me. > >> -Tim -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From d.kuntadi at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 22:07:01 2009 From: d.kuntadi at gmail.com (David Kuntadi) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 10:07:01 +0700 Subject: [Linux4christians] Bride of Christ [Was: Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson.] In-Reply-To: <4B1F0A20.8070904@bibleseven.com> References: <20091208202158.SE9AQ.326514.root@mp07> <4B1F0A20.8070904@bibleseven.com> Message-ID: <9844155d0912081907n60cf3cb6tbe9957906be6e2b2@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 9:23 AM, Pastor David wrote: > What does this mean, please? > >> There are those Christians who are in the Bride of Christ >> and those who aren't. I don't know who wrote this. But may be what he meant is not all Christians would be saved. May be he is referring to this verse: Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. DK From fmiller at lightlink.com Wed Dec 9 00:13:33 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 00:13:33 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] I don't know if this is accurate or not. Message-ID: <4B1F31FD.1010802@lightlink.com> I've held for sometime that the commie in the Oval Office wants the public to rebel and use that as a reason to declare marshal law, suspend the Constitution, and use our own military against us.....he'll use Chinese and other foreign troops if necessary. So, the following report is believable, but I have no way of proving it. Considering those "types" of people who ARE on the "watch list," ALL REAL Christians are going to be targets for elimination IF this report is accurate, along with a lot of others. The way to look at this, I think, is that we "win" either way. If it happens, we fight to preserve our Republic. If we loose, we'll be in His presence and not subject to the evil that will infect our nation. Fred The Tonka Report December 4, 2009 Ex-Trooper Warns US Military Plans Action Against American Citizens -- SOCIALISM is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. -Winston Churchill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mwmcmlln at mnsi.net Wed Dec 9 00:45:56 2009 From: mwmcmlln at mnsi.net (Mike McMullin) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 00:45:56 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912071532y7e062128q82d3b917a9f48997@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <1260155138.6005.2.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912061922ic944803yf97881a6a08c16a8@mail.gmail.com> <1260167475.7929.7.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <4B1D7420.3050705@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912071532y7e062128q82d3b917a9f48997@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1260337556.9871.21.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> On Tue, 2009-12-08 at 06:32 +0700, David Kuntadi wrote: > I am not sure why so much hatred here. What I have learnt is: > > Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy > neighbour, and hate thine enemy. > Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse > you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which > despitefully use you, and persecute you; > > Our fellow Moslem is not even our enemy. But even if they are our > enemy, we still should love them. Major problem here, I am not a Moslem and Henceforth for me there are no "fellow Moslem"s, now having said that, I do agree with your final conclusion, we should still love them. From mwmcmlln at mnsi.net Wed Dec 9 00:51:38 2009 From: mwmcmlln at mnsi.net (Mike McMullin) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 00:51:38 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912071619q1a801552i30bf82b77508008@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <1260155138.6005.2.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912061922ic944803yf97881a6a08c16a8@mail.gmail.com> <1260167475.7929.7.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912062243x1e2b2234r4c281a577491ce1d@mail.gmail.com> <4B1D74DF.3010701@lightlink.com> <4B1D9A46.6040000@gmail.com> <9844155d0912071619q1a801552i30bf82b77508008@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1260337898.9871.25.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> On Tue, 2009-12-08 at 07:19 +0700, David Kuntadi wrote: > On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 7:13 AM, Preston Boyington > wrote: > > correct. > > > > Abraham was called out of the Ur of the Chaldees where the predominant > > religion was the worship of the moon god. The moon god was called 'Sin' > > (not quite how we use it in English) in Assyria, Al-Ilah in Arabia, and > > later Allah (even before Mohammed reshaped the religion into its' > > current monotheistic form). The worship of Al-Ilah, the moon god, was > > the predecessor to Islam and the crescent moon is still found in and on > > Islamic mosques. > > But even Moses teach Israelites to worship Serpent brass > > Num 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, > and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he > beheld the serpent of brass, he lived. > > And it works!!!! Yes it worked, but note the lack of phrasing "worshipped the serpent of brass". I'd love to give the Hebrew and it's meaning but it seems my Vines Dictionary is out on loan. :( From mwmcmlln at mnsi.net Wed Dec 9 01:03:42 2009 From: mwmcmlln at mnsi.net (Mike McMullin) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 01:03:42 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <57FBCD31-E04E-48A6-A22A-F13359EAB802@ofb.biz> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <1260155138.6005.2.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912061922ic944803yf97881a6a08c16a8@mail.gmail.com> <1260167475.7929.7.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912062243x1e2b2234r4c281a577491ce1d@mail.gmail.com> <4B1D74DF.3010701@lightlink.com> <4B1D9A46.6040000@gmail.com> <4B1E3605.4030706@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912072040l776aa80ax8be649e1fe3f3153@mail.gmail.com> <57FBCD31-E04E-48A6-A22A-F13359EAB802@ofb.biz> Message-ID: <1260338622.9871.26.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> On Tue, 2009-12-08 at 00:00 -0600, Timothy Butler wrote: > On Dec 7, 2009, at 10:40 PM, David Kuntadi wrote: > > > If all of the teachings could be reconciled, all of us would become > > Catholic..... I guess. > > Catholic does refer to the universal church... You could do worse, at > any rate. Yes all Christians are catholic, but not all Christians are Roman Catholic. From fmiller at lightlink.com Wed Dec 9 01:05:24 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 01:05:24 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <4B1EAE02.5080508@bibleseven.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <1260155138.6005.2.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912061922ic944803yf97881a6a08c16a8@mail.gmail.com> <1260167475.7929.7.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <4B1D7420.3050705@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912071532y7e062128q82d3b917a9f48997@mail.gmail.com> <4B1D9BA6.4090609@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912071710t5719f3b5v1a210be2261a3ab6@mail.gmail.com> <4B1E57F9.9040708@gmail.com> <4B1EAE02.5080508@bibleseven.com> Message-ID: <4B1F3E24.8080801@lightlink.com> On 12/08/2009 02:50 PM, Pastor David wrote: > There is ridicule and open scorn for serious Christians > in many parts of America - not only Hollywood, the media, > and Democrat politicians but also in the educational > establishment - all the way up into the colleges. > > It seems most prevalent in northern states, perhaps > explaining why they are so pro-Democrat, and they are > trying to impose their sneering and arrogant disdain > for Jesus into laws and policies and regulations > wherever possible. > > American Christians will soon know much of the hate that > has been commonplace in much of the rest of the world > all too soon - unless there is a move-of-God among the > opinion-leaders in entertainment, information, and > politics. > 'Couldn't have said it as well, David. '100% accurate, and I fear, we don't have very long to wait. Obama KNOWS he is in deep trouble on everything he's done and wants to do with the majority of Americans. The king doesn't have any cloths; he knows it and we all know it now. The only way he can continue his Marxist plans, is to bring about a totalitarian state, and we all know what he'll have to do to make that a reality.....if he succeeds, which I think he will. After all, if we're close to the tribulation, and I believe we are, then he will have to succeed, IMHO. Fred -- SOCIALISM is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. -Winston Churchill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From d.kuntadi at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 01:11:23 2009 From: d.kuntadi at gmail.com (David Kuntadi) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 13:11:23 +0700 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <1260337898.9871.25.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <1260155138.6005.2.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912061922ic944803yf97881a6a08c16a8@mail.gmail.com> <1260167475.7929.7.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912062243x1e2b2234r4c281a577491ce1d@mail.gmail.com> <4B1D74DF.3010701@lightlink.com> <4B1D9A46.6040000@gmail.com> <9844155d0912071619q1a801552i30bf82b77508008@mail.gmail.com> <1260337898.9871.25.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> Message-ID: <9844155d0912082211t113d9101t33c75fb73e5f54b7@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Mike McMullin wrote: > ?Yes it worked, but note the lack of phrasing "worshipped the serpent > of brass". ?I'd love to give the Hebrew and it's meaning but it seems my > Vines Dictionary is out on loan. ?:( When you get back your dictionary, check this out as well: 2Ki 18:4 ......, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan. DK From mwmcmlln at mnsi.net Wed Dec 9 02:09:22 2009 From: mwmcmlln at mnsi.net (Mike McMullin) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 02:09:22 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912082211t113d9101t33c75fb73e5f54b7@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <1260155138.6005.2.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912061922ic944803yf97881a6a08c16a8@mail.gmail.com> <1260167475.7929.7.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912062243x1e2b2234r4c281a577491ce1d@mail.gmail.com> <4B1D74DF.3010701@lightlink.com> <4B1D9A46.6040000@gmail.com> <9844155d0912071619q1a801552i30bf82b77508008@mail.gmail.com> <1260337898.9871.25.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912082211t113d9101t33c75fb73e5f54b7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1260342562.9871.41.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> On Wed, 2009-12-09 at 13:11 +0700, David Kuntadi wrote: > On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Mike McMullin wrote: > But even Moses teach Israelites to worship Serpent brass > > Num 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, > and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he > beheld the serpent of brass, he lived. > > And it works!!!! > > Yes it worked, but note the lack of phrasing "worshipped the serpent > > of brass". I'd love to give the Hebrew and it's meaning but it seems my > > Vines Dictionary is out on loan. :( > > When you get back your dictionary, check this out as well: > > 2Ki 18:4 ......, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses > had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense > to it: and he called it Nehushtan. Please, be more careful with the quotes, you left out the key phrase: "He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake into pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan." Note the difference in time, this is at a much later date when Israel was indulging in Idolatry. Contrast that to Numbers 21:9 "And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived." Numbers does not counsel idolatry, the record attests to that. I can make certain allowances for English not being your first language, but I cannot allow for bad cites. Take Care, Mike From d.kuntadi at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 03:13:54 2009 From: d.kuntadi at gmail.com (David Kuntadi) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 15:13:54 +0700 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <1260342562.9871.41.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061922ic944803yf97881a6a08c16a8@mail.gmail.com> <1260167475.7929.7.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912062243x1e2b2234r4c281a577491ce1d@mail.gmail.com> <4B1D74DF.3010701@lightlink.com> <4B1D9A46.6040000@gmail.com> <9844155d0912071619q1a801552i30bf82b77508008@mail.gmail.com> <1260337898.9871.25.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912082211t113d9101t33c75fb73e5f54b7@mail.gmail.com> <1260342562.9871.41.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> Message-ID: <9844155d0912090013i63f0fb51x1dac2f10439e95c4@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Mike McMullin wrote: > ?Please, be more careful with the quotes, you left out the key phrase: > "He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the > groves, and brake into pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: > for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and > he called it Nehushtan." > > ?Note the difference in time, this is at a much later date when Israel > was indulging in Idolatry. ?Contrast that to Numbers 21:9 > "And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came > to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the > serpent of brass, he lived." > > ?Numbers does not counsel idolatry, the record attests to that. > > ?I can make certain allowances for English not being your first > language, but I cannot allow for bad cites. I beg to differ. For my opinion, during Moses time is also an idolatry, but it is accepted. So, I see this is a change in Israel moral standard of what is allowed and what is not allowed. Previously during Moses time, it is allowed to treat Serpent Brass as having power (to heal) is not considered as idolatry (accepted). But later on, it not acceptable and considered as idolatry. So, I have quoted it properly. Now, could you please explain why "Healed by a serpent brass" not considered as an idolatry? DK From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Tue Dec 8 21:43:56 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 21:43:56 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] James 2:14-26 (Wednesday) Message-ID: <4B1F0EEC.7050205@bibleseven.com> *James 2:14-26 (Wednesday)* *?Commentary* "What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but does not have works?" [Note: James revisits a question addressed by Paul from a different perspective, Paul reflected that although it would be better if he were present with the Lord, God had chosen to keep him here on earth so he had to presume that it was not without purpose, therefore he would give himself completely to God's service.] "Can this kind of faith save him." [Note: James is linking works (the fruit of the indwelling Holy Spirit) to a genuine saving faith and the absence of works to His absence and thus the absence of a saving faith. He is not teaching works-righteousness for salvation.] James goes on to describe a right-application where one does not merely be verbally encouraging to a brother or sister in need but to actually make an effort to practically meet those needs. "You believe that God is one; well and good. Even the demons believe that -- and tremble with fear." [Note: In the specific local textual context one may take this to refer to God's salvation being integrated with the obedient works of those to whom He grants salvation; however, one may also take it as a reference to the Trinity - since the Father told Abraham that his "... belief would be accounted to him as faith", the Son provided our way to salvation, and the Holy Spirit is the "first down payment" on our salvation and is the One Who prompts us to the fruits (works) of His indwelling presence.] James recounts the story of Abraham and Issac and the altar to make the point that Abraham's genuine belief was demonstrated through his obedient actions, he also cites Rahab, concluding "... a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead." [Note: James reinforces the Biblical teaching that man is uniquely gifted by God with a spirit which makes a man or woman truly human and apart from all other life forms. *Interaction* *Consider*? the common teaching of Paul and James ?that although it would be better if we were present with the Lord, God has chosen to keep us here on earth so we must presume that is was not without purpose, we must give ourselves completely to God's service. *Discuss* ?some practical ways ?to not merely be verbally encouraging to a brother or sister in need but to actually make an effort to practically meet those needs. *Reflect* upon the repeated emphasis of the Biblical text that our first priority must always be with brothers and sisters in-faith, not the unsaved. *Share* a practical example where you caught yourself speaking words of encouragement to a struggling brother and sister but failing to recognize that God had provided sufficient excess so that you could actually meet their immediate practical need. How did you respond to His prompting and what was the result? *Truth in Action* Today I am choosing to prayerfully review those times when I allow the challenges of daily living, or challenges from the past (which I should long-ago have neutralized), to cause me to question God's purpose in my life. I will instead re-commit myself to His service and put aside any doubts as to why He has chosen to keep me here. *Be Specific* ______________________________________ -------------------------------------- Thursday's text will be: James 3:1-18 -------------------------------------- -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From preston.lists at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 11:53:21 2009 From: preston.lists at gmail.com (Preston Boyington) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 10:53:21 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912090013i63f0fb51x1dac2f10439e95c4@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061922ic944803yf97881a6a08c16a8@mail.gmail.com> <1260167475.7929.7.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912062243x1e2b2234r4c281a577491ce1d@mail.gmail.com> <4B1D74DF.3010701@lightlink.com> <4B1D9A46.6040000@gmail.com> <9844155d0912071619q1a801552i30bf82b77508008@mail.gmail.com> <1260337898.9871.25.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912082211t113d9101t33c75fb73e5f54b7@mail.gmail.com> <1260342562.9871.41.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912090013i63f0fb51x1dac2f10439e95c4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B1FD601.70404@gmail.com> David Kuntadi wrote: > I beg to differ. For my opinion, during Moses time is also an > idolatry, but it is accepted. actually at the time it wasn't an idol. later on in 2 Kings 18:4 you will read that it had become an idol and therefore Hezekiah had to destroy it. the reason it wasn't an idol when first used is spoken about in 1 Corinthians 10:11, which states: "Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." (other examples were the manna that fell from heaven, Aaron's rod, order of the camp, and the water from the rock.) Jesus explains to Nicodemus one night about this same thing: John 3:14-19 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." there are many examples/types of Messianic prophecy throughout the Old Testament and they were there to assist the people in understanding God's plan of redemption for them. in fact i believe if Moses had asked the water to spring from the rock instead of striking it, he would have entered into the promised land. by striking the rock he "broke" the type/example of Jesus providing the living water by a person asking for Him to come into his life. From d.kuntadi at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 17:36:37 2009 From: d.kuntadi at gmail.com (David Kuntadi) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 05:36:37 +0700 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <4B1FD601.70404@gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912062243x1e2b2234r4c281a577491ce1d@mail.gmail.com> <4B1D74DF.3010701@lightlink.com> <4B1D9A46.6040000@gmail.com> <9844155d0912071619q1a801552i30bf82b77508008@mail.gmail.com> <1260337898.9871.25.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912082211t113d9101t33c75fb73e5f54b7@mail.gmail.com> <1260342562.9871.41.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912090013i63f0fb51x1dac2f10439e95c4@mail.gmail.com> <4B1FD601.70404@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9844155d0912091436w6c233438xe35d9a998e47f923@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 11:53 PM, Preston Boyington wrote: > John 3:14-19 > > "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the > Son of man be lifted up: ?That whosoever believeth in him should not > perish, but have eternal life. ?For God so loved the world, that he gave > his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not > perish, but have everlasting life. ?For God sent not his Son into the > world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be > saved. ?He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth > not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of > the only begotten Son of God. ?And this is the condemnation, that light > is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, > because their deeds were evil." > > there are many examples/types of Messianic prophecy throughout the Old > Testament and they were there to assist the people in understanding > God's plan of redemption for them. This verse basically said we must believe Jesus as we believe the serpent brass: Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: ?That whosoever believeth in him ... To me, this is also idolatry as we are not supposed to believe any man made things: Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: DK From preston.lists at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 17:54:00 2009 From: preston.lists at gmail.com (Preston Boyington) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 16:54:00 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912091436w6c233438xe35d9a998e47f923@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912062243x1e2b2234r4c281a577491ce1d@mail.gmail.com> <4B1D74DF.3010701@lightlink.com> <4B1D9A46.6040000@gmail.com> <9844155d0912071619q1a801552i30bf82b77508008@mail.gmail.com> <1260337898.9871.25.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912082211t113d9101t33c75fb73e5f54b7@mail.gmail.com> <1260342562.9871.41.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912090013i63f0fb51x1dac2f10439e95c4@mail.gmail.com> <4B1FD601.70404@gmail.com> <9844155d0912091436w6c233438xe35d9a998e47f923@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B202A88.3090805@gmail.com> David Kuntadi wrote: > On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 11:53 PM, Preston Boyington > wrote: >> John 3:14-19 >> >> "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the >> Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not >> perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave >> his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not >> perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the >> world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be >> saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth >> not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of >> the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light >> is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, >> because their deeds were evil." >> >> there are many examples/types of Messianic prophecy throughout the Old >> Testament and they were there to assist the people in understanding >> God's plan of redemption for them. > > This verse basically said we must believe Jesus as we believe the > serpent brass: > Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of > man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him ... > To me, this is also idolatry as we are not supposed to believe any man > made things: > Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any > likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth > beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: > I think the biggest difference is that God directed Moses to create the brazen serpent as a tool. The people didn't worship the brazen serpent, they looked upon it. It was an emblem not an idol. Tying back a little to the Muslim theme, take a good look at the battle of Jericho sometime. The Levites were exempt from the military yet they go into battle here. The Ark of the Covenant wasn't supposed to be taken to battle, but it led the way. the people were not supposed to work on the Sabbath day. they did SEVEN TIMES the work of any previous day. normally this would have been an awful breach of the Sabbath, but in this case the Lord of the Sabbath (God) was with them. From d.kuntadi at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 18:05:32 2009 From: d.kuntadi at gmail.com (David Kuntadi) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 06:05:32 +0700 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <4B202A88.3090805@gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <4B1D9A46.6040000@gmail.com> <9844155d0912071619q1a801552i30bf82b77508008@mail.gmail.com> <1260337898.9871.25.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912082211t113d9101t33c75fb73e5f54b7@mail.gmail.com> <1260342562.9871.41.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912090013i63f0fb51x1dac2f10439e95c4@mail.gmail.com> <4B1FD601.70404@gmail.com> <9844155d0912091436w6c233438xe35d9a998e47f923@mail.gmail.com> <4B202A88.3090805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9844155d0912091505l7af762c3w7ed1bfafdfecdfd9@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 5:54 AM, Preston Boyington wrote: > I think the biggest difference is that God directed Moses to create the > brazen serpent as a tool. ?The people didn't worship the brazen serpent, > they looked upon it. ?It was an emblem not an idol. But when people continue to "looked upon" it and worship it, it is considered as idolatry and they need to destroy the serpent brass. Where as we are supposed to treat Jesus as we treat the serpent brass? Still, I could not reconcile those two behaviors. Do you understand my point now? > Tying back a little to the Muslim theme, take a good look at the battle > of Jericho sometime. ?The Levites were exempt from the military yet they > go into battle here. ?The Ark of the Covenant wasn't supposed to be > taken to battle, but it led the way. ?the people were not supposed to > work on the Sabbath day. ?they did SEVEN TIMES the work of any previous > day. ?normally this would have been an awful breach of the Sabbath, but > in this case the Lord of the Sabbath (God) was with them. Yes, the Ark of the Covenant is another idol. It would be considered idolatry to worship the Ark of the Covenant now. DK From preston.lists at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 18:38:36 2009 From: preston.lists at gmail.com (Preston Boyington) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 17:38:36 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912091505l7af762c3w7ed1bfafdfecdfd9@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <4B1D9A46.6040000@gmail.com> <9844155d0912071619q1a801552i30bf82b77508008@mail.gmail.com> <1260337898.9871.25.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912082211t113d9101t33c75fb73e5f54b7@mail.gmail.com> <1260342562.9871.41.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912090013i63f0fb51x1dac2f10439e95c4@mail.gmail.com> <4B1FD601.70404@gmail.com> <9844155d0912091436w6c233438xe35d9a998e47f923@mail.gmail.com> <4B202A88.3090805@gmail.com> <9844155d0912091505l7af762c3w7ed1bfafdfecdfd9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B2034FC.20506@gmail.com> David Kuntadi wrote: > On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 5:54 AM, Preston Boyington > wrote: >> I think the biggest difference is that God directed Moses to create the >> brazen serpent as a tool. The people didn't worship the brazen serpent, >> they looked upon it. It was an emblem not an idol. > > But when people continue to "looked upon" it and worship it, it is > considered as idolatry and they need to destroy the serpent brass. > Where as we are supposed to treat Jesus as we treat the serpent > brass? Still, I could not reconcile those two behaviors. Do you > understand my point now? but they started doing more than just "looking upon" the brazen serpent. they started worshiping it rather than God. it moved from being an emblem to being the center of attention. rites were performed to it instead of to God. > >> Tying back a little to the Muslim theme, take a good look at the battle >> of Jericho sometime. The Levites were exempt from the military yet they >> go into battle here. The Ark of the Covenant wasn't supposed to be >> taken to battle, but it led the way. the people were not supposed to >> work on the Sabbath day. they did SEVEN TIMES the work of any previous >> day. normally this would have been an awful breach of the Sabbath, but >> in this case the Lord of the Sabbath (God) was with them. > > Yes, the Ark of the Covenant is another idol. It would be considered > idolatry to worship the Ark of the Covenant now. > the Ark is another tool. it was not an idol. per Merriam-Webster: Main Entry: idol Pronunciation: \??-d?l\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French idle, from Late Latin idolum, from Greek eid?lon image, idol; akin to Greek eidos form Date: 13th century 1 : a representation or symbol of an object of worship; broadly : a false god 2 a : a likeness of something b obsolete : pretender, impostor 3 : a form or appearance visible but without substance 4 : an object of extreme devotion ; also : ideal 2 5 : a false conception : fallacy the Ark and the Brazen Serpent were NEVER meant to be used as idols. they were tools given to us by God. Once people crossed the line from using the tool to worshiping the tool itself, that's when they transformed it into an idol and God had it removed. From d.kuntadi at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 18:54:52 2009 From: d.kuntadi at gmail.com (David Kuntadi) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 06:54:52 +0700 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <4B2034FC.20506@gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <1260337898.9871.25.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912082211t113d9101t33c75fb73e5f54b7@mail.gmail.com> <1260342562.9871.41.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912090013i63f0fb51x1dac2f10439e95c4@mail.gmail.com> <4B1FD601.70404@gmail.com> <9844155d0912091436w6c233438xe35d9a998e47f923@mail.gmail.com> <4B202A88.3090805@gmail.com> <9844155d0912091505l7af762c3w7ed1bfafdfecdfd9@mail.gmail.com> <4B2034FC.20506@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9844155d0912091554n211a4111n5398e3525827502b@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 6:38 AM, Preston Boyington wrote: > but they started doing more than just "looking upon" the brazen serpent. > ?they started worshiping it rather than God. ?it moved from being an > emblem to being the center of attention. ?rites were performed to it > instead of to God. May be I did not write it clearly. Let me ask a question to make it clear. Are we supposed to worship Jesus or just treat Jesus as an emblem only? DK From fmiller at lightlink.com Wed Dec 9 20:16:41 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 20:16:41 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] A slow day in an East Texas Message-ID: <4B204BF9.9020102@lightlink.com> Just about the best summation I've seen. It's a slow day in a little East Texas town. The sun is beating down, and the streets are deserted. Times are tough, everybody is in debt, and everybody lives on credit. On this particular day a rich tourist from back east is driving through town. He stops at the local motel and lays a $100 bill on the desk, saying he wants to inspect the rooms upstairs in order to pick one to spend the night. As soon as the man walks upstairs, the owner grabs the bill and runs next door to pay his debt to the butcher. The butcher takes the $100 and runs down the street to retire his debt to the pig farmer. The pig farmer takes the $100 and heads off to pay his bill at the supplier of feed and fuel. The guy at the Farmer's Co-op takes the $100 and runs to pay his debt to the local prostitute, who has also been facing hard times and has had to offer her "services" on credit. The hooker rushes to the hotel and pays her room bill with the hotel owner. The hotel proprietor then places the $100 back on the counter so the rich traveler will not suspect anything. At that moment the traveler comes down the stairs, picks up the $100 bill, states that the rooms are not satisfactory, pockets the money, and leaves town. No one produced anything. No one earned anything. However, the whole town is now out of debt and now looks to the future with a lot more optimism. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how the United States Government is conducting business these days. -- SOCIALISM is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. -Winston Churchill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mwmcmlln at mnsi.net Wed Dec 9 20:18:56 2009 From: mwmcmlln at mnsi.net (Mike McMullin) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 20:18:56 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912090013i63f0fb51x1dac2f10439e95c4@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061922ic944803yf97881a6a08c16a8@mail.gmail.com> <1260167475.7929.7.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912062243x1e2b2234r4c281a577491ce1d@mail.gmail.com> <4B1D74DF.3010701@lightlink.com> <4B1D9A46.6040000@gmail.com> <9844155d0912071619q1a801552i30bf82b77508008@mail.gmail.com> <1260337898.9871.25.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912082211t113d9101t33c75fb73e5f54b7@mail.gmail.com> <1260342562.9871.41.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912090013i63f0fb51x1dac2f10439e95c4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1260407937.15883.24.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> On Wed, 2009-12-09 at 15:13 +0700, David Kuntadi wrote: > On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Mike McMullin wrote: > > Please, be more careful with the quotes, you left out the key phrase: > > "He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the > > groves, and brake into pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: > > for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and > > he called it Nehushtan." > > > > Note the difference in time, this is at a much later date when Israel > > was indulging in Idolatry. Contrast that to Numbers 21:9 > > "And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came > > to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the > > serpent of brass, he lived." > > > > Numbers does not counsel idolatry, the record attests to that. > > > > I can make certain allowances for English not being your first > > language, but I cannot allow for bad cites. > > I beg to differ. For my opinion, during Moses time is also an > idolatry, but it is accepted. As I mentioned, they looked on the Brass Serpent they did not worship it. One cannot argue that the Israelites came out of an idolatrous land, and no doubt had those tendencies, but I have yet to see a verse where they were encouraged or ordered to worship an image instead of God. (And I would argue that God in no way either possessed or inhabited the brass serpent. The creator is not contained by creation, but contains creation.) > So, I see this is a change in Israel moral standard of what is allowed > and what is not allowed. Previously during Moses time, it is allowed > to treat Serpent Brass as having power (to heal) is not considered as > idolatry (accepted). But later on, it not acceptable and considered as > idolatry. Please note that conclusion is not supported by the text of the verse in my quoting of it (version is KJV). It did not say that the brass serpent did any healing, it said they looked on the brass serpent and they lived if they had been bitten. > So, I have quoted it properly. Now, could you please explain why > "Healed by a serpent brass" not considered as an idolatry? As noted directly above the record does not indicate that the image did anything other than occupy physical space, and was looked at. I do understand how one could get to your conclusion, but it is not supported by the record. From d.kuntadi at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 20:22:31 2009 From: d.kuntadi at gmail.com (David Kuntadi) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 08:22:31 +0700 Subject: [Linux4christians] A slow day in an East Texas In-Reply-To: <4B204BF9.9020102@lightlink.com> References: <4B204BF9.9020102@lightlink.com> Message-ID: <9844155d0912091722kb459484x47b159f8de302a46@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 8:16 AM, Fred A. Miller wrote: > Just about the best summation I've seen. Good read, but your fonts is always too small, I have difficulty in reading it. May be it is better to disable the HTML? DK From d.kuntadi at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 20:32:32 2009 From: d.kuntadi at gmail.com (David Kuntadi) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 08:32:32 +0700 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <1260407937.15883.24.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912062243x1e2b2234r4c281a577491ce1d@mail.gmail.com> <4B1D74DF.3010701@lightlink.com> <4B1D9A46.6040000@gmail.com> <9844155d0912071619q1a801552i30bf82b77508008@mail.gmail.com> <1260337898.9871.25.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912082211t113d9101t33c75fb73e5f54b7@mail.gmail.com> <1260342562.9871.41.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912090013i63f0fb51x1dac2f10439e95c4@mail.gmail.com> <1260407937.15883.24.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> Message-ID: <9844155d0912091732j2085bf41i2e84a96dacd0f368@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 8:18 AM, Mike McMullin wrote: > ?As noted directly above the record does not indicate that the image > did anything other than occupy physical space, and was looked at. ?I do > understand how one could get to your conclusion, but it is not supported > by the record. If you are not conviced yet, I have another "clearly mentioned" story: Jdg 17:4 Yet he restored the money unto his mother; and his mother took two hundred shekels of silver, and gave them to the founder, who made thereof a graven image and a molten image: and they were in the house of Micah. Jdg 17:5 And the man Micah had an house of gods, and made an ephod, and teraphim, and consecrated one of his sons, who became his priest. Jdg 18:30 And the children of Dan set up the graven image: and Jonathan, the son of Gershom, the son of Manasseh, he and his sons were priests to the tribe of Dan until the day of the captivity of the land. Jdg 18:31 And they set them up Micah's graven image, which he made, all the time that the house of God was in Shiloh. If you worry I do not quote properly, please read chapter 17 and 18. DK From htgage3 at chartermi.net Wed Dec 9 20:33:51 2009 From: htgage3 at chartermi.net (htgage3 at chartermi.net) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 17:33:51 -0800 Subject: [Linux4christians] [SPAM] Re: Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <4B1EF8C9.7030000@bibleseven.com> Message-ID: <20091209203352.N2ISX.394139.root@mp07> ---- Pastor David wrote: > We are in SE Georgia and that sure is true here - but it > does not appear to be new - it has been growing for decades > probably since FDR and certainly since LBJ. > > Not even Ronald Reagan was able to halt the growth of the > invasive and expensive government, he merely slowed the > rate of growth and tried to limit some of the invasiveness. > > It is like a malignant tumor. ;-) yes think one world government! > > I don't know about the rest of the world, but down here > > (south central US) the distrust for the government is at > > an all time high. Think pre Civil war era. We thought it > > was a complement when the President said "they cling to > > their Religion and guns." :-) > > > > -- bstaggs <>< > > -- > > Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist > http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) > Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional > http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > _______________________________________________ > Linux4christians mailing list > Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians From htgage3 at chartermi.net Wed Dec 9 20:39:41 2009 From: htgage3 at chartermi.net (htgage3 at chartermi.net) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 20:39:41 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <20091208202158.SE9AQ.326514.root@mp07> Message-ID: <20091209203941.VTB5Q.394519.root@mp07> ---- htgage3 at chartermi.net wrote: > > ---- "Fred A. Miller" wrote: > > On 12/07/2009 11:40 PM, David Kuntadi wrote: > > > On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 6:18 PM, Fred A. Miller wrote: > > > > > >> So, that's why I talk about the Linux boxen I take care of, etc. > > >> > > > Actually I join this list is for linux discussion only, not for > > > theological discussion. > > > Because even in Indonesia, there are so many types of Christians, and > > > it is difficult to reconcile all of the teaching. > > > If all of the teachings could be reconciled, all of us would become > > > Catholic..... I guess. > > > > > > > No, not necessarily. There is really only ONE "type" of Christian. There > > are > > some theological differences, but the Biblical deffinition is simple and > > has > > nothing to do with anything else. > > There are those Christians who are in the Bride of Christ and those who aren't. Yes, those who accept the baptism of the local, visible New Testament church, and her statues, baptism by immersion, and the Lord's supper, to only members of the church that is taking it, not to any church member of like faith and order, or to those who are Christians, but not members of that church or in other words, either open communion or close communion. There are many who _think_ that they are in the bride, but aren't. And there will be many that don't like what I believe and teach, here and in church, but that is ok. I know what I believe and am persuaded that what I believe is correct, and anything else is just that: anything else. > > > Fred > > > > -- > > "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, > > but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to > > maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt > > to abuse them, which would include their own government." > > --George Washington > > > > _______________________________________________ > Linux4christians mailing list > Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians From htgage3 at chartermi.net Wed Dec 9 21:04:34 2009 From: htgage3 at chartermi.net (htgage3 at chartermi.net) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 18:04:34 -0800 Subject: [Linux4christians] Bride of Christ [Was: Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson.] In-Reply-To: <4B1F0A20.8070904@bibleseven.com> Message-ID: <20091209210434.GHEZN.396184.root@mp07> ---- Pastor David wrote: > What does this mean, please? > > > There are those Christians who are in the Bride of Christ > > and those who aren't. Not wanting to be arrogant, but humble in my reply. Remember what I've been preaching on this list? Closed communion, baptism by immersion, no women pastors ( haven't really touched on this, but I really would like to know exactly where in the Bible that it says that women can preach God's word?) ( that would also include women teaching men, from about the teenage class upward ). You must have the baptism of a local visible New Testament church. If you don't, you don't have baptism, you just got wet. The church has to be able to trace her roots, in places by the blood, back to the first church at Jerusalem, or later Antioch, which was a offshoot of the church at Jerusalem. PD, I don't know what faith you are, but from what I have picked up reading through the lines, I have to believe that you are Southern Baptist. Y/N? I am a American Baptist Association member. Our church associates also with the Eastern Baptist Association. (Sorry, my spelling is terrible tonight, I'm tired.) I believe that the EBA is more scriptural than the ABA. There is too much worldiness coming into the ABA, through pastors that are too liberal. We were members for 18 months at a local church here in town, Baptist Missionay Association. That guy preached the same message 3x's while we were there. The first time I was on some pretty heavy pain killers, and thought that it was just the medicine for what I heard. The 2nd time, I wondered. And the third time, was strike three. We were outta there! I do not have loosen up my standard to accept just anybody that wears the name Baptist. Why? Because not every Baptist is the same. Some are different as night and day from each other. Does this make me strange? I think not. I think it strange that some don't accept what the Bible says. I don't understand that at all, except for 2 Tim 4:3-4. The Bride of Christ is anyone who has the narrow way of thinking and believing, baptism by immersion, closed communion only. Baptism by a church that has the authority to do so, and can trace her roots back to the first church at Jerusalem, or Antioch. ( the church at antioch was a offshoot of the church at Jerusalem. Please note that paul and others traveled to jerusalem to have a meeting with the church elders there, on some issues. This is why I use this church.) Anything else is just that: anything else. > > Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist > http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) > Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional > http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > _______________________________________________ > Linux4christians mailing list > Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians From htgage3 at chartermi.net Wed Dec 9 21:11:22 2009 From: htgage3 at chartermi.net (htgage3 at chartermi.net) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 18:11:22 -0800 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <4B1F0BED.1040903@bibleseven.com> Message-ID: <20091209211122.WP9FD.396605.root@mp07> ---- Pastor David wrote: > The word pronounced "ca-thol-ic" roughly means the same > thing we mean when we say "universal" as in having the > most critical unifying elements in common despite non- > critical differences. Webster's says "universal." > > The Apostle Paul allowed for local stylistic and maturity > differences to be tolerated with grace. > > The Roman Catholic and Orthodox religious institutions > are much later and less "pure" than the early and most-true > Biblical Christian "universal Church" (genuinely saved > though geographically dispersed) family of believers - > "saints" or "children of God". Please notice when Paul wrote to the churches that were at Galatia, Rome, Thessalonica, Colosse, and all the other church letters that were addressed in like manner as the aforementioned. Each church was a local church. The universal idea of church came in existence only with the catholic church. > > The Roman Catholic religious/political institution would > like to intentionally blur the distinction but there is > in-fact a chasm of difference. > > > > ---- Timothy Butler wrote: > >> On Dec 7, 2009, at 10:40 PM, David Kuntadi wrote: > >> > >>> If all of the teachings could be reconciled, all of > >>> us would become Catholic..... I guess. > >> Catholic does refer to the universal church... You > >> could do worse, at any rate. > > > > That's my point! I have 4 universals in my truck! There > > is NO such thing as a universal church! When the Bible > > was being written, it was only to local, visible churches > > only, there were no universal churches at that time, as > > the Catholic church had not come into being yet. And the > > church that Christ started, was already in existence! > > Check the Scriptures to see. refs: Mt 16:18, note that > > Peter was refered to as a little pebble, or stone, while > > Christ is _the_rock, the rock that is immovable. Also > > check Mt 18:16, this refers to the church as being in > > existence. I've got more to say, but cannot right now, > > granddaughter needs me. > > > >> -Tim > > -- > > Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist > http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) > Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional > http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > _______________________________________________ > Linux4christians mailing list > Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians From htgage3 at chartermi.net Wed Dec 9 21:16:48 2009 From: htgage3 at chartermi.net (htgage3 at chartermi.net) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 18:16:48 -0800 Subject: [Linux4christians] Bride of Christ [Was: Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson.] In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912081907n60cf3cb6tbe9957906be6e2b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091209211648.OTVG7.396954.root@mp07> ---- David Kuntadi wrote: > On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 9:23 AM, Pastor David wrote: > > What does this mean, please? > > > >> There are those Christians who are in the Bride of Christ > >> and those who aren't. > > I don't know who wrote this. But may be what he meant is not all > Christians would be saved. May be he is referring to this verse: > > Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter > into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father > which is in heaven. > > DK David....Only Christians are saved. The rest that claim to be Christians are not saved at all. They are lost as a goose. They are wolves in sheep skins. And the verse that you have listed is for those who are not saved, but claim to be. The Bible teaches that they are two classes of people on this earth: lost ones and saved ones. Christians are the saved ones. The pretenders are just that pretenders. > _______________________________________________ > Linux4christians mailing list > Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians From d.kuntadi at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 21:21:44 2009 From: d.kuntadi at gmail.com (David Kuntadi) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 09:21:44 +0700 Subject: [Linux4christians] Bride of Christ [Was: Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson.] In-Reply-To: <20091209211648.OTVG7.396954.root@mp07> References: <9844155d0912081907n60cf3cb6tbe9957906be6e2b2@mail.gmail.com> <20091209211648.OTVG7.396954.root@mp07> Message-ID: <9844155d0912091821j168406a1j691d739a7a887f9a@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 9:16 AM, wrote: > David....Only Christians are saved. The rest that claim to be Christians are not saved at all. They are lost as a goose. They are > wolves in sheep skins. And the ?verse that you have listed is for those who are not saved, but claim to be. The Bible teaches that > they are two classes of people on this earth: lost ones and saved ones. Christians are the saved ones. The pretenders are just that > pretenders. Yet, there are two teachings in the bible, saved by faith, and save by deeds: Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. What do you think? DK From htgage3 at chartermi.net Wed Dec 9 21:24:17 2009 From: htgage3 at chartermi.net (htgage3 at chartermi.net) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 18:24:17 -0800 Subject: [Linux4christians] I don't know if this is accurate or not. In-Reply-To: <4B1F31FD.1010802@lightlink.com> Message-ID: <20091209212417.3Q4SC.397482.root@mp07> Fred, I believe that this is correct. Not having watched any of this that you have presented here, but having watched other stuff, is what I base my opin on. Consider H1n1. They have a 3 shot plan to "keep" us "safe" from the flu. Well, fine and dandy. the WHO ( world health org.) has a 3 shot plan too. The first will shut off your immune system. The second will give you infection in every cell in your body. The third will turn on your immune system. That will result in things ( they used a word that I'm not familiar with here, started with a "s"), and then you die. Sounds pleasant doesn't it? But like you said, it is a win win situation. We will be safe with Christ and not here! Come quickly Lord Jesus! :-) ---- "Fred A. Miller" wrote: > I've held for sometime that the commie in the Oval Office wants the > public to > rebel and use that as a reason to declare marshal law, suspend the > Constitution, > and use our own military against us.....he'll use Chinese and other foreign > troops if necessary. So, the following report is believable, but I have > no way > of proving it. Considering those "types" of people who ARE on the "watch > list," ALL REAL Christians are going to be targets for elimination IF this > report is accurate, along with a lot of others. > > The way to look at this, I think, is that we "win" either way. If it > happens, > we fight to preserve our Republic. If we loose, we'll be in His presence > and not subject to the evil that will infect our nation. > > Fred > > > The Tonka Report > > > December 4, 2009 > > > Ex-Trooper Warns US Military Plans Action Against > American Citizens > > > -- > SOCIALISM is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance > and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal > sharing of misery. -Winston Churchill > From htgage3 at chartermi.net Wed Dec 9 21:29:21 2009 From: htgage3 at chartermi.net (htgage3 at chartermi.net) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 18:29:21 -0800 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <1260338622.9871.26.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> Message-ID: <20091209212921.GBL4G.397867.root@mp07> ---- Mike McMullin wrote: > On Tue, 2009-12-08 at 00:00 -0600, Timothy Butler wrote: > > On Dec 7, 2009, at 10:40 PM, David Kuntadi wrote: > > > > > If all of the teachings could be reconciled, all of us would become > > > Catholic..... I guess. > > > > Catholic does refer to the universal church... You could do worse, at > > any rate. > > Yes all Christians are catholic, but not all Christians are Roman > Catholic. > Sorry Mike. I'm not catholic, I'm Baptist. All Christians that I associate with in church are not catholic. Since I was saved by grace through faith, I've been a Baptist. I was raised a methodist catholic. methodists and others of like sort are catholic children. This would include Episcopalins, church of england, anglicans, lutherns, etc. all these came from or out of the catholic church. > _______________________________________________ > Linux4christians mailing list > Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians From htgage3 at chartermi.net Wed Dec 9 21:34:19 2009 From: htgage3 at chartermi.net (htgage3 at chartermi.net) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 21:34:19 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <4B1F3E24.8080801@lightlink.com> Message-ID: <20091209213425.7J8L1.398226.root@mp07> ---- "Fred A. Miller" wrote: > On 12/08/2009 02:50 PM, Pastor David wrote: > > There is ridicule and open scorn for serious Christians > > in many parts of America - not only Hollywood, the media, > > and Democrat politicians but also in the educational > > establishment - all the way up into the colleges. > > > > It seems most prevalent in northern states, perhaps > > explaining why they are so pro-Democrat, and they are > > trying to impose their sneering and arrogant disdain > > for Jesus into laws and policies and regulations > > wherever possible. > > > > American Christians will soon know much of the hate that > > has been commonplace in much of the rest of the world > > all too soon - unless there is a move-of-God among the > > opinion-leaders in entertainment, information, and > > politics. > > > > 'Couldn't have said it as well, David. '100% accurate, and I > fear, we don't have very long to wait. Obama KNOWS he is > in deep trouble on everything he's done and wants to do > with the majority of Americans. The king doesn't have any > cloths; he knows it and we all know it now. The only way > he can continue his Marxist plans, is to bring about a > totalitarian state, and we all know what he'll have to do > to make that a reality.....if he succeeds, which I think he > will. After all, if we're close to the tribulation, and I believe > we are, then he will have to succeed, IMHO. > > Fred Yes, right on to you both. I do beileve that we are so close to the rapture that we don't have a clue of where it is. I know that we will not know, but we can see things that are being fulfilled from scripture, and see that it is coming about even here in this country. Think One World Gov't. Then we will be on the same page. :-) Come quickly Lord Jesus! > > -- > SOCIALISM is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance > and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal > sharing of misery. -Winston Churchill > From htgage3 at chartermi.net Wed Dec 9 21:36:59 2009 From: htgage3 at chartermi.net (htgage3 at chartermi.net) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 21:36:59 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912082211t113d9101t33c75fb73e5f54b7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091209213659.APW3U.398394.root@mp07> ---- David Kuntadi wrote: > On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Mike McMullin wrote: > > ?Yes it worked, but note the lack of phrasing "worshipped the serpent > > of brass". ?I'd love to give the Hebrew and it's meaning but it seems my > > Vines Dictionary is out on loan. ?:( > > When you get back your dictionary, check this out as well: > > 2Ki 18:4 ......, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses > had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense > to it: and he called it Nehushtan. > > DK Ok David, now I understand. Quit using a dictionary to explain God's Word! Plain and simple. Go get a Strong's Concordance or Vine's Bible dictionary. Do not settle for anything less. Please! > _______________________________________________ > Linux4christians mailing list > Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians From htgage3 at chartermi.net Wed Dec 9 21:38:02 2009 From: htgage3 at chartermi.net (htgage3 at chartermi.net) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 21:38:02 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <1260342562.9871.41.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> Message-ID: <20091209213802.RIJVE.398471.root@mp07> ---- Mike McMullin wrote: > On Wed, 2009-12-09 at 13:11 +0700, David Kuntadi wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Mike McMullin wrote: > > > But even Moses teach Israelites to worship Serpent brass > > > > Num 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, > > and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he > > beheld the serpent of brass, he lived. > > > > And it works!!!! > > > > Yes it worked, but note the lack of phrasing "worshipped the serpent > > > of brass". I'd love to give the Hebrew and it's meaning but it seems my > > > Vines Dictionary is out on loan. :( > > > > When you get back your dictionary, check this out as well: > > > > 2Ki 18:4 ......, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses > > had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense > > to it: and he called it Nehushtan. > > Please, be more careful with the quotes, you left out the key phrase: > "He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the > groves, and brake into pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: > for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and > he called it Nehushtan." > > Note the difference in time, this is at a much later date when Israel > was indulging in Idolatry. Contrast that to Numbers 21:9 > "And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came > to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the > serpent of brass, he lived." > > Numbers does not counsel idolatry, the record attests to that. > > I can make certain allowances for English not being your first > language, but I cannot allow for bad cites. > > Take Care, > > Mike Right on! > > _______________________________________________ > Linux4christians mailing list > Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians From d.kuntadi at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 21:44:40 2009 From: d.kuntadi at gmail.com (David Kuntadi) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 09:44:40 +0700 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <20091209213659.APW3U.398394.root@mp07> References: <9844155d0912082211t113d9101t33c75fb73e5f54b7@mail.gmail.com> <20091209213659.APW3U.398394.root@mp07> Message-ID: <9844155d0912091844j6c5e5b6cq60edb2e46d777241@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 9:36 AM, wrote: > Ok David, now I understand. Quit using a dictionary to explain God's Word! Plain and simple. Go get a Strong's Concordance or > Vine's Bible dictionary. Do not settle for anything less. Please! I am using e-Sword, and I have made a special installer to install e-sword in linux, which shipped together with Ubuntu Christian Edition. There is strong concordance in it, but the Vine's Bible dictionary is not free. Could you suggest a good free one frlom below list: http://www.e-sword.net/dictionaries.html so as I could include it in the installer. DK From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Wed Dec 9 21:44:49 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 21:44:49 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Bride of Christ In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912091821j168406a1j691d739a7a887f9a@mail.gmail.com> References: <9844155d0912081907n60cf3cb6tbe9957906be6e2b2@mail.gmail.com> <20091209211648.OTVG7.396954.root@mp07> <9844155d0912091821j168406a1j691d739a7a887f9a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B2060A1.7040100@bibleseven.com> Oh my no, never! There is salvation only by faith. The teaching re. works is to say that true salvation is *always* accompanied - or better stated "followed" - by "works" which are the fruits of the indwelling Holy Spirit. "works" are an evidence - they are *never* a means of salvation. Even in the OT when Abraham "believed" it resulted in "works" - it was his "belief" not his "works" which were then credited to him by God as "faith" which thus earned him salvation. > Yet, there are two teachings in the bible, saved by > faith, and save by deeds: > > Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is > justified, and not by faith only. > > What do you think? > > DK -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Wed Dec 9 21:48:20 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 21:48:20 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Tribulation-Rapture-Wrath [Was: Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson.] In-Reply-To: <20091209213425.7J8L1.398226.root@mp07> References: <20091209213425.7J8L1.398226.root@mp07> Message-ID: <4B206174.3010809@bibleseven.com> Although some Christians have been experiencing the early throes of tribulation the rest of the Christian world has yet to know it's trials. It appears evident that tribulation is about to come to the rest of the world. Prior to the wrath of God will come the rapture - as His wrath is reserved for non-believers > Yes, right on to you both. I do beileve that we are so > close to the rapture that we don't have a clue of where > it is. I know that we will not know, but we can see > things that are being fulfilled from scripture, and see > that it is coming about even here in this country. Think > One World Gov't. Then we will be on the same page. :-) > Come quickly Lord Jesus! -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From htgage3 at chartermi.net Wed Dec 9 22:03:54 2009 From: htgage3 at chartermi.net (htgage3 at chartermi.net) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 19:03:54 -0800 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912091554n211a4111n5398e3525827502b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091209220355.NMT5U.400243.root@mp07> ---- David Kuntadi wrote: > On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 6:38 AM, Preston Boyington > wrote: > > but they started doing more than just "looking upon" the brazen serpent. > > ?they started worshiping it rather than God. ?it moved from being an > > emblem to being the center of attention. ?rites were performed to it > > instead of to God. > > May be I did not write it clearly. Let me ask a question to make it clear. > Are we supposed to worship Jesus or just treat Jesus as an emblem only? > > DK :-) David, we are to worship Jesus. Why? Because He is/was God in the flesh. When you translate John 1:1 in the original Koine Greek, it says that, in the last of the verse, "...and the Word is God." Think of God as a egg. There are three parts of a egg. You have the shell. You have the yoke. And you have the white. All three are one. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. Also, use water. You have a solid. You have liquid. You have a vapor. ( Ice, water, fog.) It is still one. Just like above, we have God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. We must at all costs worship Jesus only. To worship anyone, anything, else, is idolatry. > _______________________________________________ > Linux4christians mailing list > Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Wed Dec 9 22:10:39 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 22:10:39 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Bride of Christ In-Reply-To: <20091209210434.GHEZN.396184.root@mp07> References: <20091209210434.GHEZN.396184.root@mp07> Message-ID: <4B2066AF.5000106@bibleseven.com> I will agree with the concern of 2 Tim. 4:3-4 re. false teaching but have found it on both extremes - the legalistic side and the liberal side. We will have to agree to disagree on the rest; my reading of the Biblical text - irrespective of associational or denominational dogma - teaches me the following: The only "roots" any Christian needs are the ones that God gives to them at their new birth. Paul merely met with the first leaders of his day - there is no Biblical mandate [in the text] which demands any sort of "lineage" flowing from any of them as mere humans. God sovereignly anoints those - from among the body of believers - Whom He chooses to call into leadership - they need no other "credentials" The "Church" consists of believers. The local "Church" is a voluntary gathering of believers. The leaders of a local "Church" are chosen by God Who speaks through His Holy Spirit into their lives and those who recognize their calling. The hierarchy in a local "Church" is GOD-Leader-Follower, there is no other provided in the Biblical text. We are told clearly to not waste time on "meaningless genealogies". [It was the repeatedly condemned Judaisers who attempted to impose genealogies and circumcision and other pre-grace "works" upon new believers. The Biblical text repeatedly affirms grace over law and meaning above ritual. Paul made a particular point of asserting his genealogy as superior to most yet then declared it to be as "dung".] Baptism has nothing to do with "official", it is merely a symbolic public affirmation of a singularly private surrender in faith to the Lordship of Christ. It is a first act of obedience but not proof of salvation no matter what the circumstances. One may be baptized anywhere (per the Biblical model) and by any Christian ["Go forth ... baptizing ..." was given to all believers, not merely "official" people.] Communion is also a purely symbolic act, it is "closed" in the sense that only God [and the one participating] knows if one is saved and is "prepared" [e.g. not harboring unforgiveness] per the Biblical teaching. There is no Biblical mandate for anyone "official" to conduct it nor even one that mandates literal wine or grape juice as the fluid nor any specific food be the "bread", Jesus said "When you do this ..." [gather in fellowship to dine together] "remember" {recall what I am about to do for you - or what He has done for us]. We must never lose the meaning in the ritual. I am not intending to be offensive - just responding tersely as I need to get the daily Bible study posted after returning from our Wed. evening fellowship. > accept what the Bible says. I don't understand that at > all, except for 2 Tim 4:3-4. The Bride of Christ is > anyone who has the narrow way of thinking and believing, > baptism by immersion, closed communion only. Baptism by a > church that has the authority to do so, and can trace her > roots back to the first church at Jerusalem, or Antioch. > ( the church at antioch was a offshoot of the church at > Jerusalem. Please note that paul and others traveled to > jerusalem to have a meeting with the church elders there, > on some issues. This is why I use this church.) Anything > else is just that: anything else. -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From d.kuntadi at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 22:38:17 2009 From: d.kuntadi at gmail.com (David Kuntadi) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 10:38:17 +0700 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <20091209220355.NMT5U.400243.root@mp07> References: <9844155d0912091554n211a4111n5398e3525827502b@mail.gmail.com> <20091209220355.NMT5U.400243.root@mp07> Message-ID: <9844155d0912091938k82d3f6cl93c81e732421bb48@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 10:03 AM, wrote: > We must at all costs worship Jesus only. To worship anyone, anything, else, is idolatry. Then, that come the problem of Serpent Brass: "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." The serpent brass was also worship by people of Israel, that is why Jesus took the example of how to treat Jesus, the same as Israel treat the serpent brass. Am I right this? DK From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Wed Dec 9 23:04:59 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 23:04:59 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] James 3:1-18 (Thursday) Message-ID: <4B20736B.3040302@bibleseven.com> *James 3:1-18 (Thursday)* *?Commentary* "Not many of you should become teachers ..." [Note: One who accepts any role of authority in the transmission of God's word to those who will trust them must be aware that God defends His Word. Those who sit under ones teaching have a right to presume accountability and sound "scholarship" from their teacher - for they are expected to submit to that authority - and though they be "good Bereans" and check the Word they are vulnerable to subtle deception - via carelessness or intentional deceit. God takes a dim view of those who mistreat His "children"!] James notes that "... we all stumble in many ways" and that "... no human being can subdue the tongue". [Note: This is why James warns against becoming teachers because the care necessary to minimize error is extraordinary.] James requires that those who claim to be "... wise and understanding" evidence "... good conduct" via "... good works done in the gentleness that wisdom brings." James then contrasts false claims of wisdom, "... earthy, natural, demonic" with "wisdom from above". False: "... bitter jealousy" "...selfishness in your hearts" "... disorder and every evil practice" Genuine: "... first pure" "... peaceable" "... gentle" "... accommodating" "... full of mercy" "... full of ... good fruit" "... impartial" "... not hypocritical" "And the fruit that consists of righteousness is planted in peace among those who make peace." *Interaction* *Consider* the desire of God that all who teach be committed to the integrity of the Word of God, thus to protect His "sheep" from the harm of careless and/or false beliefs. *Discuss* the incredible power of the tongue to both condemn and praise other believers and to disrespect and praise God. *Reflect* upon the lists of the fruits of false and genuine sources of wisdom; do you find any in your life which require attention to relocate from false to genuine? *Share* an example of the incredible power of the tongue to both condemn and praise other believers and to disrespect and praise God. *Truth in Action* ?Today I am choosing to allow the Holy Spirit to identify at least one place in my life where I have been careless as a teacher, careless in my words, or careless as to the source of wisdom. I agree to partner with the Holy Spirit, with the prayerful accountability of a fellow believer, to get things right with God. *Be Specific* ________________________________________ ------------------------------- Friday's text will be: ?James 4 ------------------------------- -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From fmiller at lightlink.com Wed Dec 9 23:55:58 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 23:55:58 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] A slow day in an East Texas In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912091722kb459484x47b159f8de302a46@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B204BF9.9020102@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912091722kb459484x47b159f8de302a46@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B207F5E.8050008@lightlink.com> On 12/09/2009 08:22 PM, David Kuntadi wrote: > On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 8:16 AM, Fred A. Miller wrote: > >> Just about the best summation I've seen. >> > Good read, but your fonts is always too small, I have difficulty in > reading it. May be it is better to disable the HTML? > If you're using Thunderbird, and you should be, ;), then use ctrl + to increase the font. Fred -- SOCIALISM is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. -Winston Churchill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tbutler at ofb.biz Thu Dec 10 00:04:42 2009 From: tbutler at ofb.biz (Timothy Butler) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 23:04:42 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912082211t113d9101t33c75fb73e5f54b7@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <1260155138.6005.2.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912061922ic944803yf97881a6a08c16a8@mail.gmail.com> <1260167475.7929.7.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912062243x1e2b2234r4c281a577491ce1d@mail.gmail.com> <4B1D74DF.3010701@lightlink.com> <4B1D9A46.6040000@gmail.com> <9844155d0912071619q1a801552i30bf82b77508008@mail.gmail.com> <1260337898.9871.25.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912082211t113d9101t33c75fb73e5f54b7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <098CD1FA-C4D6-41C2-9460-A4F333E1C997@ofb.biz> On Dec 9, 2009, at 12:11 AM, David Kuntadi wrote: > 2Ki 18:4 ......, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses > had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense > to it: and he called it Nehushtan. Right. This is key for seeing that the Israelites perverted the serpent and their worship of it was displeasing to God. -Tim From tbutler at ofb.biz Thu Dec 10 00:07:59 2009 From: tbutler at ofb.biz (Timothy Butler) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 23:07:59 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912091505l7af762c3w7ed1bfafdfecdfd9@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <4B1D9A46.6040000@gmail.com> <9844155d0912071619q1a801552i30bf82b77508008@mail.gmail.com> <1260337898.9871.25.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912082211t113d9101t33c75fb73e5f54b7@mail.gmail.com> <1260342562.9871.41.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912090013i63f0fb51x1dac2f10439e95c4@mail.gmail.com> <4B1FD601.70404@gmail.com> <9844155d0912091436w6c233438xe35d9a998e47f923@mail.gmail.com> <4B202A88.3090805@gmail.com> <9844155d0912091505l7af762c3w7ed1bfafdfecdfd9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ECDAB18-CD63-437E-B420-9B58E5F27539@ofb.biz> On Dec 9, 2009, at 5:05 PM, David Kuntadi wrote: > But when people continue to "looked upon" it and worship it, it is > considered as idolatry and they need to destroy the serpent brass. > Where as we are supposed to treat Jesus as we treat the serpent > brass? Still, I could not reconcile those two behaviors. Do you > understand my point now? No, because Jesus is God and the serpent was and is not. Analogy does not mean perfect equality. Just because the Son of Man heals those who look to him does not mean he is a bronze piece of metal that can be lifted up by a prophet. -Tim From fmiller at lightlink.com Thu Dec 10 00:10:10 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 00:10:10 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Bride of Christ [Was: Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson.] In-Reply-To: <20091209211648.OTVG7.396954.root@mp07> References: <20091209211648.OTVG7.396954.root@mp07> Message-ID: <4B2082B2.7090109@lightlink.com> On 12/09/2009 09:16 PM, htgage3 at chartermi.net wrote: > ---- David Kuntadi wrote: > >> On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 9:23 AM, Pastor David wrote: >> >>> What does this mean, please? >>> >>> >>>> There are those Christians who are in the Bride of Christ >>>> and those who aren't. >>>> >> I don't know who wrote this. But may be what he meant is not all >> Christians would be saved. May be he is referring to this verse: >> >> Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter >> into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father >> which is in heaven. >> >> DK >> > David....Only Christians are saved. The rest that claim to be Christians are not saved at all. They are lost as a goose. They are wolves in sheep skins. And the verse that you have listed is for those who are not saved, but claim to be. The Bible teaches that they are two classes of people on this earth: lost ones and saved ones. Christians are the saved ones. The pretenders are just that pretenders. > Correct! If one doesn't hold tightly to accepting Christ as Lord and Savior and NO OTHER, then he's not saved. If he does hold tightly to our Lord, then he also holds tightly to the tenants of Scripture. And, that makes him a "conservative" because you can't be a liberal and at the same time adhere to the tenants of Scripture. Fred -- SOCIALISM is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. -Winston Churchill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tbutler at ofb.biz Thu Dec 10 00:11:40 2009 From: tbutler at ofb.biz (Timothy Butler) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 23:11:40 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson.) In-Reply-To: <20091209212921.GBL4G.397867.root@mp07> References: <20091209212921.GBL4G.397867.root@mp07> Message-ID: <4DEA68D5-DF83-4024-BB7E-2547DA75F080@ofb.biz> On Dec 9, 2009, at 8:29 PM, wrote: > Sorry Mike. I'm not catholic, I'm Baptist. All Christians that I > associate with in church are not catholic. Since I was saved by > grace through faith, I've been a Baptist. I was raised a methodist > catholic. methodists and others of like sort are catholic children. > This would include Episcopalins, church of england, anglicans, > lutherns, etc. all these came from or out of the catholic church. Actually, Baptists historically also come out of the Catholic Church, primarily through England, through the Puritans. As to the Church, the catholic (as in universal church) seems to be clearly Biblical. It is related to the idea of the Bride of Christ -- the communion of all believers. -Tim From fmiller at lightlink.com Thu Dec 10 00:11:52 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 00:11:52 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Bride of Christ [Was: Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson.] In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912091821j168406a1j691d739a7a887f9a@mail.gmail.com> References: <9844155d0912081907n60cf3cb6tbe9957906be6e2b2@mail.gmail.com> <20091209211648.OTVG7.396954.root@mp07> <9844155d0912091821j168406a1j691d739a7a887f9a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B208318.1020907@lightlink.com> On 12/09/2009 09:21 PM, David Kuntadi wrote: > On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 9:16 AM, wrote: > >> David....Only Christians are saved. The rest that claim to be Christians are not saved at all. They are lost as a goose. They are >> wolves in sheep skins. And the verse that you have listed is for those who are not saved, but claim to be. The Bible teaches that >> they are two classes of people on this earth: lost ones and saved ones. Christians are the saved ones. The pretenders are just that >> pretenders. >> > Yet, there are two teachings in the bible, saved by faith, and save by deeds: > > Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by > faith only. > > What do you think? > One doesn't have to "think." The answer is obvious.....faith first, and action second. If you think you can get saved by deeds, then you have a VERY SEVERE problem! Fred -- SOCIALISM is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. -Winston Churchill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tbutler at ofb.biz Thu Dec 10 00:16:57 2009 From: tbutler at ofb.biz (Timothy Butler) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 23:16:57 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912091732j2085bf41i2e84a96dacd0f368@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912062243x1e2b2234r4c281a577491ce1d@mail.gmail.com> <4B1D74DF.3010701@lightlink.com> <4B1D9A46.6040000@gmail.com> <9844155d0912071619q1a801552i30bf82b77508008@mail.gmail.com> <1260337898.9871.25.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912082211t113d9101t33c75fb73e5f54b7@mail.gmail.com> <1260342562.9871.41.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912090013i63f0fb51x1dac2f10439e95c4@mail.gmail.com> <1260407937.15883.24.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912091732j2085bf41i2e84a96dacd0f368@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Dec 9, 2009, at 7:32 PM, David Kuntadi wrote: > Jdg 18:31 And they set them up Micah's graven image, which he made, > all the time that the house of God was in Shiloh. > > If you worry I do not quote properly, please read chapter 17 and 18. The Israelites are viewed as disobedient to God throughout Judges. There certainly is no indication that the actions of Micah are approved. Rather, they are actions of a people in which "Everyone did what was right in his own eyes" (Judges 17.6, 21.25). -Tim From fmiller at lightlink.com Thu Dec 10 00:23:01 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 00:23:01 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] I don't know if this is accurate or not. In-Reply-To: <20091209212417.3Q4SC.397482.root@mp07> References: <20091209212417.3Q4SC.397482.root@mp07> Message-ID: <4B2085B5.6030704@lightlink.com> On 12/09/2009 09:24 PM, htgage3 at chartermi.net wrote: > Fred, > > I believe that this is correct. Not having watched any of this that you have presented here, but having watched other stuff, is what I base my opin on. Consider H1n1. They have a 3 shot plan to "keep" us "safe" from the flu. Well, fine and dandy. the WHO ( world health org.) has a 3 shot plan too. The first will shut off your immune system. The second will give you infection in every cell in your body. The third will turn on your immune system. That will result in things ( they used a word that I'm not familiar with here, started with a "s"), and then you die. Sounds pleasant doesn't it? > But like you said, it is a win win situation. We will be safe with Christ and not here! Come quickly Lord Jesus! :-) > 'Got that right!! We're moving at a fast pace to the Tribulation. I've thought for a long time that it wasn't far off, and the absolute evil that controls just about every national gov't on earth including the UN, WHO, etc., just adds more to proof to the time coming soon when Christ will come back and settle things once and for all. Oh yeah! Fred -- SOCIALISM is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. -Winston Churchill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newsybits at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 00:38:42 2009 From: newsybits at gmail.com (Dave Powell) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 15:38:42 +1000 Subject: [Linux4christians] Being in the "Bride of Christ" Message-ID: <9c0d10fd0912092138o671c61ebi289c838ff5f393c1@mail.gmail.com> Well G'day over there, I guess the Internet is available for all sorts of comments to be disseminated. It has been an education watching the conversations of late. Lots of short almost meaningless comments that I guess somebody knows the heart of. They are a bit like "in house" comments, you need to be there. There are a number of questions that I was going to make a comment on but decided to just watch but the Bride of Christ is an important subject. I notice that some get all excited and make clear comments about some Christians not being part of the Bride of Christ. Now that is a puzzle. I would think that if you are not part of the Bride of Christ you are not a Christian - maybe a pretender but not a Christian. Could someone tell me what they think the Biblical criteria is for being in the Bride of Christ. Here is something to get excited about - A group of Kenyans have left a Church in Kenya because of the liberal (or as they said "compromising with sin) theology developing, as seems to be the case in your and my country also. They have contacted us through our WWW and want to join with us and be know as the Bible Methodist Church of Africa. about eight Churches so far I think. Would any of you put this on your urgent prayer list as we in Aus are just a small single church and to help them get going is going to be a challenge. We would appreciate your prayer support. Kind regards Rev Dave Powell (Home) Ph No. 07 4635 0204 or 0405 450 259 Bible Methodist Church - Kilcoy www.thebmca.org President Darling Downs Christian Conventions Inc Be kinder than necessary. Everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. You never know when a moment and a few sincere words can have an impact on a life for a life. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonathon.blake at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 01:00:45 2009 From: jonathon.blake at gmail.com (jonathon) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 06:00:45 +0000 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912061845kb753bcdjbd9f70db6aef2f83@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <9844155d0912061737y1059c86byd3c8528d1583e422@mail.gmail.com> <3C4F6B5D-6774-425B-9724-0DACA27A3383@ofb.biz> <9844155d0912061845kb753bcdjbd9f70db6aef2f83@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 02:45, David Kuntadi wrote: > 2. In the early christianity, not all christians accepted Jesus the same as God. Only after ?Athanasius of Alexandria won the "Political battle" against Arius then Athanasian Creed is accepted, trinitarian was established. It was only well after Athanasian Creed was inflicted on an unwilling priesthood, and an even more unwilling laity, that Trinitarianism gained any degree of prominence. (IOW, it took until the late eighth/early ninth century to stamp it out of the official priesthood, and even longer to stamp it out of the laity.) jonathon From fmiller at lightlink.com Thu Dec 10 01:02:03 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 01:02:03 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Being in the "Bride of Christ" In-Reply-To: <9c0d10fd0912092138o671c61ebi289c838ff5f393c1@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c0d10fd0912092138o671c61ebi289c838ff5f393c1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B208EDB.2020703@lightlink.com> On 12/10/2009 12:38 AM, Dave Powell wrote: > Well G'day over there, > I guess the Internet is available for all sorts of comments to be > disseminated. It has been an education watching the conversations of > late. Lots of short almost meaningless comments that I guess somebody > knows the heart of. They are a bit like "in house" comments, you need > to be there. > > There are a number of questions that I was going to make a comment on > but decided to just watch but the Bride of Christ is an important subject. > > I notice that some get all excited and make clear comments about some > Christians not being part of the Bride of Christ. Now that is a > puzzle. I would think that if you are not part of the Bride of Christ > you are not a Christian - maybe a pretender but not a Christian. Could > someone tell me what they think the Biblical criteria is for being in > the Bride of Christ. > > Here is something to get excited about - A group of Kenyans have left > a Church in Kenya because of the liberal (or as they said > "compromising with sin) theology developing, as seems to be the case > in your and my country also. They have contacted us through our WWW > and want to join with us and be know as the Bible Methodist Church of > Africa. about eight Churches so far I think. Would any of you put this > on your urgent prayer list as we in Aus are just a small single church > and to help them get going is going to be a challenge. We would > appreciate your prayer support. > Done! I'm not surprised to hear this story from Kenya. First, it's hard enough to even be a Christian there because of Islam. Fred -- SOCIALISM is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. -Winston Churchill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonathon.blake at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 01:04:10 2009 From: jonathon.blake at gmail.com (jonathon) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 06:04:10 +0000 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912091844j6c5e5b6cq60edb2e46d777241@mail.gmail.com> References: <9844155d0912082211t113d9101t33c75fb73e5f54b7@mail.gmail.com> <20091209213659.APW3U.398394.root@mp07> <9844155d0912091844j6c5e5b6cq60edb2e46d777241@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 02:44, David Kuntadi wrote: > dictionary is not free. Could you suggest a good free one from below list: Eatons, Smiths, or ISBE. (I'd also throw Webster's into the list.) FWIW, there is a gratis version of Vines floating around.(e-Sword 7.8.6 compatible. It needs to be upgraded to meet e-Sword Resource Format Specification 1 criteria and e-Sword Resource Format Specification 2 criteria. jonathon From d.kuntadi at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 01:33:40 2009 From: d.kuntadi at gmail.com (David Kuntadi) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 13:33:40 +0700 Subject: [Linux4christians] Bride of Christ [Was: Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson.] In-Reply-To: <4B208318.1020907@lightlink.com> References: <9844155d0912081907n60cf3cb6tbe9957906be6e2b2@mail.gmail.com> <20091209211648.OTVG7.396954.root@mp07> <9844155d0912091821j168406a1j691d739a7a887f9a@mail.gmail.com> <4B208318.1020907@lightlink.com> Message-ID: <9844155d0912092233x2a8c38b0xbb41161e954530ff@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 12:11 PM, Fred A. Miller wrote: > > Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by > faith only. > > What do you think? > > > One doesn't have to "think." The answer is obvious.....faith first, and > action second. If you think you can get saved by deeds, then you have a VERY > SEVERE problem! I don't think I can. But could you explain why Jesus said Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;* but he that doeth the will of my Father* which is in heaven. I thought faith is enough? DK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tbutler at ofb.biz Thu Dec 10 02:30:47 2009 From: tbutler at ofb.biz (Timothy Butler) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 01:30:47 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <9844155d0912061737y1059c86byd3c8528d1583e422@mail.gmail.com> <3C4F6B5D-6774-425B-9724-0DACA27A3383@ofb.biz> <9844155d0912061845kb753bcdjbd9f70db6aef2f83@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7A709CB5-1FF0-4C0E-B37D-0220072F662E@ofb.biz> On Dec 10, 2009, at 12:00 AM, jonathon wrote: > It was only well after Athanasian Creed was inflicted on an unwilling > priesthood, and an even more unwilling laity, that Trinitarianism > gained any degree of prominence Not really. As I noted to David, the Athanasian Creed wasn't even the key creed to the debate, it was the Nicene Creed. Less than a century after Nicea, Trinitarianism was more or less firmly entrenched as the official view in the Empire. It is worth recognizing the majority of bishops rejected Arius's heresy at the council... in 325. -Tim From d.kuntadi at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 02:47:46 2009 From: d.kuntadi at gmail.com (David Kuntadi) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 14:47:46 +0700 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <7A709CB5-1FF0-4C0E-B37D-0220072F662E@ofb.biz> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <9844155d0912061737y1059c86byd3c8528d1583e422@mail.gmail.com> <3C4F6B5D-6774-425B-9724-0DACA27A3383@ofb.biz> <9844155d0912061845kb753bcdjbd9f70db6aef2f83@mail.gmail.com> <7A709CB5-1FF0-4C0E-B37D-0220072F662E@ofb.biz> Message-ID: <9844155d0912092347w63a015c0yda8e929e9331c512@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Timothy Butler wrote: > > ? ? ? ?Not really. As I noted to David, the Athanasian Creed wasn't even the key creed to the debate, it was the Nicene Creed. Less > than a century after Nicea, Trinitarianism was more or less firmly entrenched as the official view in the Empire. It is worth > recognizing the majority of bishops rejected Arius's heresy at the council... in 325. According to below writing, trinity is PROBABLY just political move to remove other religion when christianity was adopted as The only official religion: Quote: "Unless the people believe Jesus is God, paganism will triumph," DK http://bswett.com/1998-05Church300.html 362 Trinity and Creed. Athanasius appeared by night in the church at Alexandria (22 February). His sudden appearance caused great astonishment, for although he was thought to be somewhere in Upper Egypt, he had concealed himself in the house of a holy virgin in Alexandria. He promptly convened and led a small Synod of bishops who disagreed with the recently established orthodoxy. They approved the Athanasian Creed, in which God is defined as one substance (substantia) in three persons (persona, an actor's face mask) -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This was when and how the Holy Spirit was made into a person and promoted to the Godhead: "They confessed that the Holy Ghost is of the same substance as the Father and the Son, and they made use of the term 'Trinity.'" [Sozomen, V, xii] Church historians still maintain that Arius tried to strip the mystery out of the Holy Trinity, but Arius died before Athanasius defined the Trinity. I believe that Athanasius made Christian theology mysterious by the paradoxical assertion: "Three equals One." I still don't know why he made the Holy Spirit a person equal to God, but he previously said, "Unless the people believe Jesus is God, paganism will triumph," so I think he probably defined the Trinity for a political purpose. From jonathon.blake at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 04:22:42 2009 From: jonathon.blake at gmail.com (jonathon) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 09:22:42 +0000 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <7A709CB5-1FF0-4C0E-B37D-0220072F662E@ofb.biz> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <9844155d0912061737y1059c86byd3c8528d1583e422@mail.gmail.com> <3C4F6B5D-6774-425B-9724-0DACA27A3383@ofb.biz> <9844155d0912061845kb753bcdjbd9f70db6aef2f83@mail.gmail.com> <7A709CB5-1FF0-4C0E-B37D-0220072F662E@ofb.biz> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 07:30, Timothy Butler wrote: > ? ? ? ?Not really. As I noted to David, the Athanasian Creed wasn't even the key creed to the debate, it was the Nicene Creed. Actually, it started with the _second_ Nicene Creed, not the first. (The first is Modalist in outlook, the second can swing either way.) It was only until well after the Athanasian Creed was adopted, that the Trinitarians managed to eliminate the Modalists. > Trinitarianism was more or less firmly entrenched as the official view in the Empire. It is worth recognizing the majority of bishops rejected Arius's heresy at the council... in 325. The majority of those bishops were Modalists, who voted in favour of the lesser of the two evils: Arius and Trinitarianism. jonathon From hpp3 at lavabit.com Thu Dec 10 06:14:32 2009 From: hpp3 at lavabit.com (Eddy Martin) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 03:14:32 -0800 Subject: [Linux4christians] Bride of Christ [Was: Ex-Muslim's collegespeech disrupted by arson.] In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912092233x2a8c38b0xbb41161e954530ff@mail.gmail.com> References: <9844155d0912081907n60cf3cb6tbe9957906be6e2b2@mail.gmail.com><20091209211648.OTVG7.396954.root@mp07><9844155d0912091821j168406a1j691d739a7a887f9a@mail.gmail.com><4B208318.1020907@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912092233x2a8c38b0xbb41161e954530ff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Notice he doesn't say the LAW of my Father, but the WILL Look up how many times Jesus told folks to BELIEVE. Such then is the will of God that people would believe on his Son, agreed? Also notice that when James mentions works, he never refers to the Law, but his statements come after a short admonishment to treat poor folks on the same ground as the rich. When Paul refers to works, he is almost exclusively referring to the Law. Therein lies the harmony between Paul and James. _____ From: linux4christians-bounces at thelinuxlink.net [mailto:linux4christians-bounces at thelinuxlink.net] On Behalf Of David Kuntadi Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 10:34 PM To: Linux for Christians Subject: Re: [Linux4christians] Bride of Christ [Was: Ex-Muslim's collegespeech disrupted by arson.] On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 12:11 PM, Fred A. Miller wrote: > > Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by > faith only. > > What do you think? > > > One doesn't have to "think." The answer is obvious.....faith first, and > action second. If you think you can get saved by deeds, then you have a VERY > SEVERE problem! I don't think I can. But could you explain why Jesus said Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. I thought faith is enough? DK __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4674 (20091209) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From d.kuntadi at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 06:21:50 2009 From: d.kuntadi at gmail.com (David Kuntadi) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 18:21:50 +0700 Subject: [Linux4christians] Bride of Christ [Was: Ex-Muslim's collegespeech disrupted by arson.] In-Reply-To: References: <9844155d0912081907n60cf3cb6tbe9957906be6e2b2@mail.gmail.com> <20091209211648.OTVG7.396954.root@mp07> <9844155d0912091821j168406a1j691d739a7a887f9a@mail.gmail.com> <4B208318.1020907@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912092233x2a8c38b0xbb41161e954530ff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9844155d0912100321r2809fe00nc920eede7b580b95@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 6:14 PM, Eddy Martin wrote: > Notice he doesn?t say the LAW of my Father, but the WILL > > Look up how many times Jesus told folks to BELIEVE. > > Such then is the will of God that people would believe on his Son, agreed? Nope. When somebody says that we should believe him, means that we must do what he said. So, I reckon that it is instruction to do something, not to believe only. We do not believe, we would not do it, right? > Also notice that when James mentions works, he never refers to the Law, but > his statements come after a short admonishment to treat poor folks on the > same ground as the rich. So, according to James, it is still works that count, not the words only. > When Paul refers to works, he is almost exclusively referring to the Law. > > Therein lies the harmony between Paul and James. I do not say any disharmony here, there should be some possible explanations. That is what I am exploring. DK From preston.lists at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 09:38:30 2009 From: preston.lists at gmail.com (Preston Boyington) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 08:38:30 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912091938k82d3f6cl93c81e732421bb48@mail.gmail.com> References: <9844155d0912091554n211a4111n5398e3525827502b@mail.gmail.com> <20091209220355.NMT5U.400243.root@mp07> <9844155d0912091938k82d3f6cl93c81e732421bb48@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B2107E6.70401@gmail.com> David Kuntadi wrote: > On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 10:03 AM, wrote: >> We must at all costs worship Jesus only. To worship anyone, anything, else, is idolatry. > > Then, that come the problem of Serpent Brass: > > "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the > Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not > perish, but have eternal life." > > The serpent brass was also worship by people of Israel, that is why > Jesus took the example of how to treat Jesus, the same as Israel treat > the serpent brass. Am I right this? > Jesus was using an event in Israels past to give an example. remember that the people were very knowledgeable of the Torah. the serpent brass was NOT created to be an object of worship. it was a tool that was used by God and an anticipatory symbol of the coming of Christ. the lost needing healing looked upon the serpent brass then just as the lost nowadays look upon Jesus for salvation. (not the best analogy, sorry) remember that the serpent brass was destroyed when it came to be used as an idol. From tbutler at ofb.biz Thu Dec 10 10:37:14 2009 From: tbutler at ofb.biz (Timothy Butler) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 09:37:14 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Athanasian Creed Re: Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912092347w63a015c0yda8e929e9331c512@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1C0D12.4000902@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912061725w4f3068dap4501fe04204ee53c@mail.gmail.com> <4B1C5AF1.3040405@bibleseven.com> <9844155d0912061737y1059c86byd3c8528d1583e422@mail.gmail.com> <3C4F6B5D-6774-425B-9724-0DACA27A3383@ofb.biz> <9844155d0912061845kb753bcdjbd9f70db6aef2f83@mail.gmail.com> <7A709CB5-1FF0-4C0E-B37D-0220072F662E@ofb.biz> <9844155d0912092347w63a015c0yda8e929e9331c512@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Dec 10, 2009, at 1:47 AM, David Kuntadi wrote: > According to below writing, trinity is PROBABLY just political move to > remove other religion when christianity was adopted as The only > official religion: > > Quote: > "Unless the people believe Jesus is God, paganism will triumph," > > DK There's a lot of really poor historical work done on the internet. Most reliable historians (and by that, I do not mean just "Christian historians," but historians in general) seem to date the Athanasian Creed as written long after Athaniasius's death. It also appears to have been a Latin creed, not Greek, even though Athanasius is one of the Greek Fathers. More over Constantine, though initially Trinitarian, switched camps to the Arians within years of Nicea. Thus began a major struggle in which the powers that be supported the heterodox position, while many of the bishops and priests maintained Nicene orthodoxy for almost 100 years as rogues. Things were finally solidified in 381 at the Second Ecumenical Council (Constantinople). -Tim From tbutler at ofb.biz Thu Dec 10 10:40:06 2009 From: tbutler at ofb.biz (Timothy Butler) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 09:40:06 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Bride of Christ [Was: Ex-Muslim's collegespeech disrupted by arson.] In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912100321r2809fe00nc920eede7b580b95@mail.gmail.com> References: <9844155d0912081907n60cf3cb6tbe9957906be6e2b2@mail.gmail.com> <20091209211648.OTVG7.396954.root@mp07> <9844155d0912091821j168406a1j691d739a7a887f9a@mail.gmail.com> <4B208318.1020907@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912092233x2a8c38b0xbb41161e954530ff@mail.gmail.com> <9844155d0912100321r2809fe00nc920eede7b580b95@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <472E2561-C4AC-4744-B965-62DCAE2D3CF8@ofb.biz> On Dec 10, 2009, at 5:21 AM, David Kuntadi wrote: >> >> When Paul refers to works, he is almost exclusively referring to >> the Law. >> >> Therein lies the harmony between Paul and James. > > I do not say any disharmony here, there should be some possible > explanations. That is what I am exploring. It is primarily a matter of accent, so to speak. James says faith without works is dead. Paul would agree -- he pounds those who are Christian in name but act in a manner displeasing to God (e.g. the Corinthians). Essentially, this seems to reveal the idea that salvation is dependent on Grace, but the outworking of the Spirit in living faith results in good works. -Tim From tbutler at ofb.biz Thu Dec 10 10:41:10 2009 From: tbutler at ofb.biz (Timothy Butler) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 09:41:10 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Tribulation-Rapture-Wrath [Was: Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson.] In-Reply-To: <4B206174.3010809@bibleseven.com> References: <20091209213425.7J8L1.398226.root@mp07> <4B206174.3010809@bibleseven.com> Message-ID: <5CF46016-CE65-4FEB-A425-2FAB2F65DD1D@ofb.biz> On Dec 9, 2009, at 8:48 PM, Pastor David wrote: > It appears evident that tribulation is about to come to the rest of > the world. > > Prior to the wrath of God will come the rapture - as His wrath is > reserved for non-believers Except us amill folks. We're staying put. :-P -Tim From lists at runyanrants.net Thu Dec 10 11:16:29 2009 From: lists at runyanrants.net (Legatus) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 10:16:29 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Bride of Christ [Was: Ex-Muslim's collegespeech disrupted by arson.] In-Reply-To: <472E2561-C4AC-4744-B965-62DCAE2D3CF8@ofb.biz> References: <9844155d0912081907n60cf3cb6tbe9957906be6e2b2@mail.gmail.com> <20091209211648.OTVG7.396954.root@mp07> <9844155d0912091821j168406a1j691d739a7a887f9a@mail.gmail.com> <4B208318.1020907@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912092233x2a8c38b0xbb41161e954530ff@mail.gmail.com> <9844155d0912100321r2809fe00nc920eede7b580b95@mail.gmail.com> <472E2561-C4AC-4744-B965-62DCAE2D3CF8@ofb.biz> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 09:40, Timothy Butler wrote: > > On Dec 10, 2009, at 5:21 AM, David Kuntadi wrote: > > >>> When Paul refers to works, he is almost exclusively referring to the Law. >>> >>> Therein lies the harmony between Paul and James. >>> >> >> I do not say any disharmony here, there should be some possible >> explanations. That is what I am exploring. >> > > It is primarily a matter of accent, so to speak. James says faith without > works is dead. Paul would agree -- he pounds those who are Christian in name > but act in a manner displeasing to God (e.g. the Corinthians). Essentially, > this seems to reveal the idea that salvation is dependent on Grace, but the > outworking of the Spirit in living faith results in good works. > > I have always read Paul as saying that the outward expression of a relationship with Christ is seen by the works a man does, and it would be a reasonable conclusion that those works would fall within the law, because God's character hasn't changed. The law that comes to us through the holy spirit would be the same law that God gave the Israelites through Moses. -- JD Runyan Job 42:3 - You asked, ?Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?? Surely I spok... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From htgage3 at chartermi.net Thu Dec 10 15:53:32 2009 From: htgage3 at chartermi.net (htgage3 at chartermi.net) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 12:53:32 -0800 Subject: [Linux4christians] Bride of Christ [Was: Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson.] In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912091821j168406a1j691d739a7a887f9a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091210155332.IL4Z3.446764.root@mp12> ---- David Kuntadi wrote: > On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 9:16 AM, wrote: > > David....Only Christians are saved. The rest that claim to be Christians are not saved at all. They are lost as a goose. They are > > wolves in sheep skins. And the ?verse that you have listed is for those who are not saved, but claim to be. The Bible teaches that > > they are two classes of people on this earth: lost ones and saved ones. Christians are the saved ones. The pretenders are just that > > pretenders. > > Yet, there are two teachings in the bible, saved by faith, and save by deeds: > > Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by > faith only. > > What do you think? > > DK No, not quite. There is only salvation by grace through faith, and that alone. Works is not of faith. Eph 2:8-9 clearly shows that. Works _shows_ that we are saved. That is the only thing that we have with works. Our good works show that we are saved. > _______________________________________________ > Linux4christians mailing list > Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians From htgage3 at chartermi.net Thu Dec 10 16:01:17 2009 From: htgage3 at chartermi.net (htgage3 at chartermi.net) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 13:01:17 -0800 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson. In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912091844j6c5e5b6cq60edb2e46d777241@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091210160117.PAWXT.447322.root@mp12> ---- David Kuntadi wrote: > On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 9:36 AM, wrote: > > Ok David, now I understand. Quit using a dictionary to explain God's Word! Plain and simple. Go get a Strong's Concordance or > > Vine's Bible dictionary. Do not settle for anything less. Please! > > I am using e-Sword, and I have made a special installer to install > e-sword in linux, which shipped together with Ubuntu Christian > Edition. There is strong concordance in it, but the Vine's Bible > dictionary is not free. Could you suggest a good free one frlom below > list: > > http://www.e-sword.net/dictionaries.html > > so as I could include it in the installer. > > DK I have just about all of them. K&D is good as well as Thayers. Barnes is ok, but not spectacular, I wouldn't put a lot of faith into it, as I have Barnes and Garner commentary, but watch some of the things that they say as well. You have to remember, All commentaries are just that: commentaries of what somebody thinks or believes. There are those that will have different opines than mine, but that is ok too, as they are allowed that. ;-) > _______________________________________________ > Linux4christians mailing list > Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians From htgage3 at chartermi.net Thu Dec 10 16:40:43 2009 From: htgage3 at chartermi.net (htgage3 at chartermi.net) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 13:40:43 -0800 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson.) In-Reply-To: <4DEA68D5-DF83-4024-BB7E-2547DA75F080@ofb.biz> Message-ID: <20091210164043.CEGG3.450074.root@mp12> ---- Timothy Butler wrote: > > On Dec 9, 2009, at 8:29 PM, > wrote: > > > Sorry Mike. I'm not catholic, I'm Baptist. All Christians that I > > associate with in church are not catholic. Since I was saved by > > grace through faith, I've been a Baptist. I was raised a methodist > > catholic. methodists and others of like sort are catholic children. > > This would include Episcopalins, church of england, anglicans, > > lutherns, etc. all these came from or out of the catholic church. > > > Actually, Baptists historically also come out of the Catholic Church, > primarily through England, through the Puritans. No that is NOT correct. Sorry. Baptist were before the catholic church ever was. Baptists were in the first church at Jerusalem. Constantine started the catholic church, hundreds of years after Christ started His church. > As to the Church, the catholic (as in universal church) seems to be > clearly Biblical. It is related to the idea of the Bride of Christ -- > the communion of all believers. How could it be Biblical, when it wasn't started until hundreds of years after Christ started His church? > -Tim > _______________________________________________ > Linux4christians mailing list > Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians From fmiller at lightlink.com Thu Dec 10 16:49:01 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 16:49:01 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ubuntu Malware Message-ID: <4B216CCD.2050003@lightlink.com> Be very careful when you add 3rd party repositories or manually install anything. If you're not sure of what you're doing, then install packages only from the Ubuntu repositories. http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2009/12/malware-found-in-screensaver-for-ubuntu.html http://digitizor.com/2009/12/10/ubuntu-malware-for-ddos-attack-found-in-screensaver/ -- A REVOLUTIONARY IDEA! 'Time to put Nana Pelosi in a home!' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tbutler at ofb.biz Thu Dec 10 17:11:20 2009 From: tbutler at ofb.biz (Timothy Butler) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 16:11:20 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson.) In-Reply-To: <20091210164043.CEGG3.450074.root@mp12> References: <20091210164043.CEGG3.450074.root@mp12> Message-ID: <23431961-1C31-48CB-86C4-0EFF44BE8FAA@ofb.biz> >> >> Actually, Baptists historically also come out of the Catholic Church, >> primarily through England, through the Puritans. > > No that is NOT correct. Sorry. Baptist were before the catholic > church ever was. Baptists were in the first church at Jerusalem. > Constantine started the catholic church, hundreds of years after > Christ started His church. Most historians would disgree with you. Here's a Baptist site that offers the more standard history: http://www.baptisthistory.org/baptistbeginnings.htm (Check out some good Church History books that are not partisan to a particular denomination if you'd like to confirm what I'm saying.) One would have a very hard time proving baptists existed in Jerusalem -- there is no historical record to suggest that, to the best of my knowledge. On extant evidence, one could make as compelling (if not more compelling) argument of a primitive Presbyterian church. But, I don't recommend doing it. :-) > >> As to the Church, the catholic (as in universal church) seems to be >> clearly Biblical. It is related to the idea of the Bride of Christ -- >> the communion of all believers. > > How could it be Biblical, when it wasn't started until hundreds of > years after Christ started His church? Because the catholic church was not formed by Constantine. It was clearly forming even in late New Testament times, as the later books in the canon seem to potentially suggest. Certainly, by the end of the first century, there were bishops in a fairly modern sense. True, Catholic (big "c") formed in the following centuries, but the it was a relatively organic progression. Certainly, one would have a hard time saying Clement of Rome (1st century) was not at all catholic, but Athanasius or Ambrose were... Also note Scripture that arguably speak of the church not merely regionally: 1.) Acts 20.28. 2.) 1 Cor. 10.32 3.) 1 Cor. 12.28 (seems very clear here) 4.) 1 Cor. 15.9, Gal 1.13 (even clearer, on Paul's persecution of the Church) 5.) Eph. 3.10, 3.21, 5.27, 32 (esp. 5.27, 32) 6.) Col. 1.18 -etc- Remember catholic means merely universal. To say one is not "catholic" in that sense is to say one is not part of the universal body of believers, the Bride of Christ. -Tim PS: I'm Presbyterian, not Catholic, so I am only a small "c" catholic. From tbutler at ofb.biz Thu Dec 10 17:22:22 2009 From: tbutler at ofb.biz (Timothy Butler) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 16:22:22 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson.) In-Reply-To: <23431961-1C31-48CB-86C4-0EFF44BE8FAA@ofb.biz> References: <20091210164043.CEGG3.450074.root@mp12> <23431961-1C31-48CB-86C4-0EFF44BE8FAA@ofb.biz> Message-ID: <6E96C437-8761-41F5-B8D2-741365605059@ofb.biz> On Dec 10, 2009, at 4:11 PM, Timothy Butler wrote: >>> >>> Actually, Baptists historically also come out of the Catholic >>> Church, >>> primarily through England, through the Puritans. >> >> No that is NOT correct. Sorry. Baptist were before the catholic >> church ever was. Baptists were in the first church at Jerusalem. >> Constantine started the catholic church, hundreds of years after >> Christ started His church. > > Most historians would disgree with you. Here's a Baptist site that > offers the more standard history: > http://www.baptisthistory.org/baptistbeginnings.htm > > (Check out some good Church History books that are not partisan to > a particular denomination if you'd like to confirm what I'm saying.) > > One would have a very hard time proving baptists existed in > Jerusalem -- there is no historical record to suggest that, to the > best of my knowledge. On extant evidence, one could make as > compelling (if not more compelling) argument of a primitive > Presbyterian church. But, I don't recommend doing it. :-) Incidentally, the easiest way to trace the linage of a church is simply to look at where its organization comes from. Baptists in the U.S. trace back to the same Elizabethean/Jacobean Puritans that founded the Presbyterian and Congregational churches... (cf. Wm. H. Brackney, _Baptists in North America: An Historical Perspective [Oxford: Blackwell, 2006], i.) -Tim From gorkon at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 17:32:37 2009 From: gorkon at gmail.com (Joel Mclaughlin) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:32:37 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Ubuntu Malware In-Reply-To: <4B216CCD.2050003@lightlink.com> References: <4B216CCD.2050003@lightlink.com> Message-ID: <6dd08b10912101432o5be4dd26k646b70342793145@mail.gmail.com> The word DUH comes to mind here. On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 4:49 PM, Fred A. Miller wrote: > Be very careful when you add 3rd party repositories > or?manually?install?anything. > > If you're not sure of what you're doing, then install packages only from > the?Ubuntu?repositories. > > http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2009/12/malware-found-in-screensaver-for-ubuntu.html > > http://digitizor.com/2009/12/10/ubuntu-malware-for-ddos-attack-found-in-screensaver/ > > -- > A REVOLUTIONARY IDEA! > 'Time to put Nana Pelosi in a home!' > > _______________________________________________ > Linux4christians mailing list > Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians > > -- Joel McLaughlin Life in Ohio Podcast life.in.ohio.pod at gmail.com gorkon at gmail.com http://lifeinohio.libsyn.com joel at geardiary.com geardiary.com Mike Ditka - "If God had wanted man to play soccer, he wouldn't have given us arms." - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/mike_ditka.html From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Thu Dec 10 17:37:19 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:37:19 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson.) In-Reply-To: <6E96C437-8761-41F5-B8D2-741365605059@ofb.biz> References: <20091210164043.CEGG3.450074.root@mp12> <23431961-1C31-48CB-86C4-0EFF44BE8FAA@ofb.biz> <6E96C437-8761-41F5-B8D2-741365605059@ofb.biz> Message-ID: <4B21781F.9030703@bibleseven.com> I happen to be affiliated with a local fellowship which is associated with other local fellowships which together have used the name "Baptist" to label their voluntary association. That some choose to draw some sort of historical linkage between the momentary Baptist network of local fellowships and past organizations is interesting academia I suppose but tells one little to nothing relevant to Biblical truth. I only trace my salvation roots to a decision made in response to an offer from God. I only trace my doctrinal roots to what I have read in the non-associational/non-denominational Word of God, I have little to no interest in extra-Biblical dogma or tradition. While Presbyterians and Methodists and Lutherans and others may fairly be labeled "Protest-ants" as they were created in "protest" against some (not all) of the non-Biblical practices of the Roman Catholic religious/political organization. The true "Church" (believers and local fellowships of believers) would be far healthier if every evidence of man's religious inventions between the time of the authorship of the NT and now would suddenly disappear and everyone was forced to rely upon the Bible and nothing but. > On Dec 10, 2009, at 4:11 PM, Timothy Butler wrote: > >>>> >>>> Actually, Baptists historically also come out of the Catholic Church, >>>> primarily through England, through the Puritans. >>> >>> No that is NOT correct. Sorry. Baptist were before the catholic >>> church ever was. Baptists were in the first church at Jerusalem. >>> Constantine started the catholic church, hundreds of years after >>> Christ started His church. >> >> Most historians would disgree with you. Here's a Baptist site that >> offers the more standard history: >> http://www.baptisthistory.org/baptistbeginnings.htm >> >> (Check out some good Church History books that are not partisan to >> a particular denomination if you'd like to confirm what I'm saying.) >> >> One would have a very hard time proving baptists existed in >> Jerusalem -- there is no historical record to suggest that, to the >> best of my knowledge. On extant evidence, one could make as compelling >> (if not more compelling) argument of a primitive Presbyterian church. >> But, I don't recommend doing it. :-) > > Incidentally, the easiest way to trace the linage of a church is > simply to look at where its organization comes from. Baptists in the > U.S. trace back to the same Elizabethean/Jacobean Puritans that founded > the Presbyterian and Congregational churches... (cf. Wm. H. Brackney, > _Baptists in North America: An Historical Perspective [Oxford: > Blackwell, 2006], i.) > > -Tim > _______________________________________________ > Linux4christians mailing list > Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians > -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Thu Dec 10 18:25:28 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 18:25:28 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Bride of Christ In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912092233x2a8c38b0xbb41161e954530ff@mail.gmail.com> References: <9844155d0912081907n60cf3cb6tbe9957906be6e2b2@mail.gmail.com> <20091209211648.OTVG7.396954.root@mp07> <9844155d0912091821j168406a1j691d739a7a887f9a@mail.gmail.com> <4B208318.1020907@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912092233x2a8c38b0xbb41161e954530ff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B218368.5090208@bibleseven.com> Jesus clearly explained this when he said "It is not the will of the Father that any be lost." (paraphrased from memory) When Jesus gave the "Great Commission" He did not say to go and teach people to perform OT-legalistic sacrifices or NT-good deeds -- He said to go forth and make disciples. The Bible teaches that a disciple is a person who has surrendered to the Lordship of Christ and obediently learns from the Holy Spirit how they might live righteously and be useful in making other disciples. The will of the Father is that all hear the gospel of Christ so that they have the opportunity to believe and have that accounted to them as saving faith - same as Abraham. Belief=Faith, Faith=Salvation, Salvation=Holy Spirit, Holy Spirit=Fruit (good works) - all are inseparably locked together. God is perfectly consistent and has been so from Genesis until today. > But could you explain why Jesus said > > Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter > into the kingdom of heaven;_* but he that doeth the will of my Father*_ > which is in heaven. > > I thought faith is enough? > > DK > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Linux4christians mailing list > Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From tbutler at ofb.biz Thu Dec 10 18:42:20 2009 From: tbutler at ofb.biz (Timothy Butler) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:42:20 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson.) In-Reply-To: <4B21781F.9030703@bibleseven.com> References: <20091210164043.CEGG3.450074.root@mp12> <23431961-1C31-48CB-86C4-0EFF44BE8FAA@ofb.biz> <6E96C437-8761-41F5-B8D2-741365605059@ofb.biz> <4B21781F.9030703@bibleseven.com> Message-ID: <66C263F4-86AE-4A30-88A6-3672C874913E@ofb.biz> > That some choose to draw some sort of historical linkage > between the momentary Baptist network of local fellowships and past > organizations is interesting academia I suppose > but tells one little to nothing relevant to Biblical > truth. I (obviously) disagree. :-) After all, the Bible is a book of the history and story of God's people. It traces the revelation of God over time and his faithful interaction with his people. Likewise, church history, though not inspired helps us to see God's faithfulness over the centuries. It also gives us a great deal of advantage in that we learn what has gone on in the past, what worked and what didn't. Remember: "Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it." I also think history helps to remind us of our humble estate. No one today can really claim to accurately emulate the New Testament church because we really don't know what it looks like. When I know only my current history and what is all about ME, I can become centered on ME and how MY tradition is right. When I see the development of doctrines, I'm reminded of the many faithful believers who have run the race before me, the great cloud of witnesses, and how my tradition, my position is one of receiving many great things from God's people, not a sort of a prior, dropped from the sky belief. (I don't say that to suggest yours is, but to suggest that is the sort of thing I do see a lot... and it isn't good.) > The true "Church" (believers and local fellowships > of believers) would be far healthier if every evidence > of man's religious inventions between the time of the > authorship of the NT and now would suddenly disappear > and everyone was forced to rely upon the Bible and > nothing but. A lot of what the Patristics did was bump around looking for terms to express things well. Hence, one fellow observed this morning on here that the Nicene Creed could be seen as modalist. While I might beg to differ somewhat, we also see that as things have worked (and not worked) the Church has learned. The early patristics used all kinds of sorts of weird ways of describing what we now call the Trinity. Why reinvent the wheel? Probably so, but I doubt any church one happens to fellowship with actually would look much like it does now, if you did that. For example: 1.) Baptism: covenant child or just believer? Immersion or sprinkling? The Bible doesn't say. 2.) Lord's Supper: Wafers? Loaves? A banquet at a table in the fellowship hall? 3.) Sunday services or just a Bible study at a local believer's house? 4.) Scripture: which books? Canon was settled by the church. 5) Covenant theology? Dispensationalism? Etc. (The rapture in its modern sense appears in the 19th century.) As a wise fellow I know jokes: be careful in wishing to be the New Testament church... you don't want to be Corinth or Galatia or... -Tim From hpp3 at lavabit.com Thu Dec 10 18:43:51 2009 From: hpp3 at lavabit.com (hpp3 at lavabit.com) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 18:43:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Linux4christians] Bride of Christ [Was: Ex-Muslim's collegespeech disrupted by arson.] In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912100321r2809fe00nc920eede7b580b95@mail.gmail.com> References: <9844155d0912081907n60cf3cb6tbe9957906be6e2b2@mail.gmail.com> <20091209211648.OTVG7.396954.root@mp07> <9844155d0912091821j168406a1j691d739a7a887f9a@mail.gmail.com> <4B208318.1020907@lightlink.com> <9844155d0912092233x2a8c38b0xbb41161e954530ff@mail.gmail.com> <9844155d0912100321r2809fe00nc920eede7b580b95@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13879.64.40.62.95.1260488631.squirrel@lavabit.com> > On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 6:14 PM, Eddy Martin wrote: >> Notice he doesn?t say the LAW of my Father, but the WILL >> >> Look up how many times Jesus told folks to BELIEVE. >> >> Such then is the will of God that people would believe on his Son, >> agreed? > > Nope. When somebody says that we should believe him, means that we > must do what he said. > So, I reckon that it is instruction to do something, not to believe > only. We do not believe, we would not do it, right? No. When the subject is salvation, Jesus has done all the work possible to that end. This is what we are called to believe. WHEN we believe, we will do as he says with obedience from the heart, not just as "eye-pleasers". >> Also notice that when James mentions works, he never refers to the Law, >> but >> his statements come after a short admonishment to treat poor folks on >> the >> same ground as the rich. > So, according to James, it is still works that count, not the words only. He is saying that faith without action is likely to be suspect. Real faith is a prime motivator in the life of the true believer. Remember Hebrews 11:6; "But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him." Good works are as easily performed by the heathen as well as the saint, with no more efficacy to commend ourselves to God. The heathen who does good will be commended by men for rising above the base nature common to all. The christian will find himself in danger of being chided by men for falling short of the higher standards his faith supposedly requires (Romans 2:24). THIS is what James is discussing, not salvation, not works required for justification before God, but works that demonstrate our faith that our "...light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16) >> When Paul refers to works, he is almost exclusively referring to the >> Law. >> >> Therein lies the harmony between Paul and James. > > I do not say any disharmony here, there should be some possible > explanations. That is what I am exploring. > > DK > _______________________________________________ > Linux4christians mailing list > Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians > From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Thu Dec 10 19:02:08 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 19:02:08 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists & Biblical Doctrine In-Reply-To: <66C263F4-86AE-4A30-88A6-3672C874913E@ofb.biz> References: <20091210164043.CEGG3.450074.root@mp12> <23431961-1C31-48CB-86C4-0EFF44BE8FAA@ofb.biz> <6E96C437-8761-41F5-B8D2-741365605059@ofb.biz> <4B21781F.9030703@bibleseven.com> <66C263F4-86AE-4A30-88A6-3672C874913E@ofb.biz> Message-ID: <4B218C00.50001@bibleseven.com> > Probably so, but I doubt any church one happens to > fellowship with actually would look much like it does > now, if you did that. For example: "Pagan Christianity" by Barna & Viola offers a pretty scathing indictment of the wide range of distortions injected into fellowships over time - many of which are now falsely believed to be Biblical in source. I am not comfortable with some of their recommendations toward the end of the book but they ask some legitimate and tough questions at the start. After 19 years in non-associational and associational fellowships, studies in two different seminaries, and service as an administrator and adjunct professor in a Bible college, and in discussion and study of church history and doctrine I am persuaded that there is more darkness than light to be found therein. > 1.) Baptism: covenant child or just believer? Immersion > or sprinkling? The Bible doesn't say. Why the artificial difference? The Bible doesn't make one. This is an example where religious folks have complicated the simple. A saved person is a child of God, a saint, a member of His eternal family, a participant in the new covenant, etc. It's in the Bible - we don't need the self-serving ramblings of confused religious folks to get our answers - God's Word and the enlightment of His indwelling Holy Spirit are all we need - God says so. As for the modality of Baptism the Bible is clear that it is merely a symbolic act - for those who are capable immersion is the best symbolic representation - for the person in a hospital bed wired-up to sensitive electronic gear such would not be practical - and there would be no sin in a non-immersion alternative. Grace applies - we know this because Paul used the illustration of "eating meat or not eating meat" to teach us that. No church history necessary for context or understanding beyond that reported in the Bible. > 2.) Lord's Supper: Wafers? Loaves? A banquet at a table > in the fellowship hall? Doesn't matter - it was not the point of the exercise. > 3.) Sunday services or just a Bible study at a local > believer's house? Doesn't matter - it is irrelevant to the purpose. > 4.) Scripture: which books? Canon was settled by the > church. No, Canon was settled by God, He led folks in religious organizations to recognize it. A vital difference. If mere man decided what is Canon, without the direction of God, then we may as well toss our Bibles in the trash as they are unreliable. > 5) Covenant theology? Dispensationalism? Etc. (The > rapture in its modern sense appears in the 19th century.) The rapture is recorded in the Bible, that some failed to recognize that and then recognized once it again in the 19th Century is "shame on them". It is the same with Luther recognizing again what the Bible taught about faith and not works - it was always there - the religious folks had merely obscured it for Satan-manipulated self-serving reasons. Same as the Trinity - it was always there - that it took so long for some in religious leadership to rediscover it is again "shame on them". > As a wise fellow I know jokes: be careful in wishing to > be the New Testament church... you don't want to be > Corinth or Galatia or... > > -Tim We surely have that, without a doubt! The NT church I am interested in is the one (or ones) upon whom Paul and others heaped compliments - or even better a collection of all of the best into one. Berean checking of everything with the Word. Thessalonian spreading of the Word as they learned it and their love for others. etc. -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From tbutler at ofb.biz Thu Dec 10 20:31:33 2009 From: tbutler at ofb.biz (Timothy Butler) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 19:31:33 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists & Biblical Doctrine In-Reply-To: <4B218C00.50001@bibleseven.com> References: <20091210164043.CEGG3.450074.root@mp12> <23431961-1C31-48CB-86C4-0EFF44BE8FAA@ofb.biz> <6E96C437-8761-41F5-B8D2-741365605059@ofb.biz> <4B21781F.9030703@bibleseven.com> <66C263F4-86AE-4A30-88A6-3672C874913E@ofb.biz> <4B218C00.50001@bibleseven.com> Message-ID: <00EFE433-D06F-43DC-9714-E7B503BBF4A7@ofb.biz> > >> 1.) Baptism: covenant child or just believer? Immersion >> or sprinkling? The Bible doesn't say. > > Why the artificial difference? The Bible doesn't make one. > This is an example where religious folks have complicated > the simple. A saved person is a child of God, a saint, a > member of His eternal family, a participant in the new > covenant, etc. It's in the Bible - we don't need the > self-serving ramblings of confused religious folks to get > our answers - God's Word and the enlightment of His > indwelling Holy Spirit are all we need - God says so. Well, my point is this: I'm not sure about your semi-Baptist group, but most would reject baptizing infants. I would argue that the Biblical position would include baptizing infants. Good, believing people disagree here. I personally think I can scripturally justify my position, but I also realize I accept a framework when I go into a denomination (or "non- denomination"). Everyone has an ideological bias -- the trick is to critically locate one's own interpretive framework and thereby be aware of it. No one is a tabula rasa. > > No church history necessary for context or understanding beyond that > reported in the Bible. I was referring more to denominational tradition on that example. If we started back from "scratch," it might lead to any number of conclusions -- not necessarily just the one we think ought to be chosen. I think this is really part of what the author of Hebrews was saying when he talked of the great cloud of witnesses (11-12). I do not think the point was that God's working in history through his elect simply ended with the closing of the canon so that nothing the faithful saints of the last two millennia have done is of use. > >> 4.) Scripture: which books? Canon was settled by the >> church. > > No, Canon was settled by God, He led folks in religious > organizations to recognize it. A vital difference. Well, but if we don't accept church history or tradition as helpful, how are you going to determine what God selected? > If mere man decided what is Canon, without the direction of > God, then we may as well toss our Bibles in the trash as they are > unreliable. Of course, I was not suggesting it was mere man, but man did play a role. God works through people, after all. >> 5) Covenant theology? Dispensationalism? Etc. (The >> rapture in its modern sense appears in the 19th century.) > > The rapture is recorded in the Bible, that some failed to recognize > that and then recognized once it again in the 19th Century is "shame > on them". Well, see, I would disagree with that. I'd suggest the most faithful readings of the texts does not present a rapture such as Left Behind presents at all. (And, I'd be inclined to say the vast majority of folks coming straight to Scripture would never formulate the rapture... that was actually one reason I decided to reject it and follow the traditional Reformed view.) > It is the same with Luther recognizing again what the Bible > taught about faith and not works - it was always there - the > religious folks had merely obscured it for Satan-manipulated > self-serving reasons. Well, but if we reject church history... Luther is part of church history and must be ignored. > > Same as the Trinity - it was always there - that it took so long for > some in religious leadership to rediscover it is again "shame on > them". Actually, I don't think it was that they rediscovered it, it was just newly revealed by God in the New Testament and it took awhile for people to figure out how to describe it. Yet, I am thankful that I don't have to do all of the work of people like Athanasius, Alexander, etc. all over again. -Tim From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Thu Dec 10 21:17:46 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 21:17:46 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] =?utf-8?b?4oCtSmFtZXMgNCAoRnJpZGF5KQ==?= Message-ID: <4B21ABCA.7000507@bibleseven.com> *?James 4 (Friday)* *?Commentary* 4:1 Where do the conflicts and where do the quarrels among you come from? Is it not from this, from your passions that battle inside you? James challenges his readers to look to the emotional-spiritual conflict between the "old man" (the persistent flesh with which we endure which still in the world), and the "new man" who is already seen through Christ as clothed in white and in a perfect Heaven - now trying to push away the sin of the world which seeks to stain him/her. [Note: The latter is a paraphrase from Dr. Neil Anderson of Freedom in Christ ministries.] 4:2 You desire and you do not have; you murder and envy and you cannot obtain; you quarrel and fight. You do not have because you do not ask; 4:3 you ask and do not receive because you ask wrongly, so you can spend it on your passions. As with King David in the Bathsheba tragedy, his son Solomon in his Ecclesiastes lament, and other Biblical characters they missed-out on blessings because of their disobedience. 4:4 Adulterers, do you not know that friendship with the world means hostility toward God? So whoever decides to be the world?s friend makes himself God?s enemy. 4:5 Or do you think the scripture means nothing when it says, ?The spirit that God caused to live within us has an envious yearning?? 4:6 But he gives greater grace. Therefore it says, ?God opposes the proud, but he gives grace to the humble.? James challenges his readers to make a choice, there is no middle ground, choose God or man, the world or the Kingdom. 4:7 So submit to God. But resist the devil and he will flee from you. James returns to spiritual warfare. Whether we choose to acknowledge it there is a spiritual war raging all around us and we are involved - we ignore it to our peril - we remain defenseless unless we assert our legitimate spiritual authority as children of God. 4:8 Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and make your hearts pure, you double-minded. 4:9 Grieve, mourn, and weep. Turn your laughter into mourning and your joy into despair. 4:10 Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you. God wants us to choose to partner with Him and He longs to bless us for ministry. 4:11 Do not speak against one another, brothers and sisters. He who speaks against a fellow believer or judges a fellow believer speaks against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but its judge. 4:12 But there is only one who is lawgiver and judge ? the one who is able to save and destroy. On the other hand, who are you to judge your neighbor? The purpose of the Law was to convict people of their sin, to convince them of their inability to earn salvation through works, and to drive them to humility before Christ. God alone may know and judge the heart (spiritual essence) of a person and to thus know the integrity of their faith-for-salvation. 4:13 Come now, you who say, ?Today or tomorrow we will go into this or that town and spend a year there and do business and make a profit.? 4:14 You do not know about tomorrow. What is your life like? For you are a puff of smoke that appears for a short time and then vanishes. 4:15 You ought to say instead, ?If the Lord is willing, then we will live and do this or that.? In the parable of the man who tore down his silos to build larger ones Jesus declared that he may die in the night and have no heirs and no eternal hope - James reflects upon the same principle - we must attend to the priorities of God and live in the moment without presuming upon the future. Serve God right now! 4:16 But as it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil. 4:17 So whoever knows what is good to do and does not do it is guilty of sin. *?Interaction* *Consider* that God wants us to make a choice, there is no middle ground, choose God or man, the world or the Kingdom. *Discuss* practical ways to recognize the spiritual war raging all around us and how me may assert our legitimate spiritual authority as children of God. *Reflect* upon the principle that we must attend to the priorities of God and live in the moment without presuming upon the future. Serve God right now! *Share* examples of the battle in your life between the temptations of the "old man" and the appeal to righteous living of the "new man". [Note: If you are not experiencing this "battle" then you may need to revisit your salvation - unless you are claiming a perfect righteousness prior to Heaven!] *Truth in Action* Today I am choosing to examine my relationship with God. Am I serving Him right now or am I still procrastinating in favor of worldly priorities? Am I winning the battle for the "new man" or am I too-often surrendering to the temptations of the "old man"? Do I understand spiritual warfare or do I need to find some Biblically-trustworthy discipleship in that area? Do I know what I should do in the area of spiritual warfare but am hesitating like David's brothers in the face of a Goliath-like giant of a challenge from the enemy in my life? I agree to identify at least one area when God is prompting me to mature and to partner with the Holy Spirit, and another believer, to intentionally move toward maturity. *Be Specific* ______________________________________ --------------------------------- ?Saturday's text will be: James 5 --------------------------------- -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From fmiller at lightlink.com Thu Dec 10 22:47:06 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 22:47:06 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] EU President Admits One-World Government is Here Message-ID: <4B21C0BA.3050309@lightlink.com> Kinda goes along with some of what we've been talking about. Fred _______________ Who's laughing now? Of course, I can imagine "some of them" I once worked with exclaiming how "they knew it would come to this" and "how inevitable it was" and "how benevolent this is" but they speak lies. They didn't see it then and they likely don't see it now. They do not recognize that NAFTA would be the tool of tools, so to speak, to rip the manufacturing base from this nation. This exacerbated the credit and housing "issues" and is the true reason for the Economic Depression we're in now. - Kevin http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEqFtVrAgSo&feature=player_embedded Global Governance - EU President Admits One-World Government is here NWO - New World Order -- A REVOLUTIONARY IDEA! 'Time to put Nana Pelosi in a home!' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mwmcmlln at mnsi.net Fri Dec 11 00:19:41 2009 From: mwmcmlln at mnsi.net (Mike McMullin) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 00:19:41 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Bride of Christ [Was: Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson.] In-Reply-To: <4B208318.1020907@lightlink.com> References: <9844155d0912081907n60cf3cb6tbe9957906be6e2b2@mail.gmail.com> <20091209211648.OTVG7.396954.root@mp07> <9844155d0912091821j168406a1j691d739a7a887f9a@mail.gmail.com> <4B208318.1020907@lightlink.com> Message-ID: <1260508782.13561.9.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> On Thu, 2009-12-10 at 00:11 -0500, Fred A. Miller wrote: > On 12/09/2009 09:21 PM, David Kuntadi wrote: > > On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 9:16 AM, wrote: > > > > > David....Only Christians are saved. The rest that claim to be Christians are not saved at all. They are lost as a goose. They are > > > wolves in sheep skins. And the verse that you have listed is for those who are not saved, but claim to be. The Bible teaches that > > > they are two classes of people on this earth: lost ones and saved ones. Christians are the saved ones. The pretenders are just that > > > pretenders. > > > > > Yet, there are two teachings in the bible, saved by faith, and save by deeds: > > > > Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by > > faith only. > > > > What do you think? > > > One doesn't have to "think." The answer is obvious.....faith first, > and action second. If you think you can get saved by deeds, then you > have a VERY SEVERE problem! Agreed, salvation through works is an idea that permeates Islam. (hey back on topic almost ;) From dlormand at smalltimer.net Fri Dec 11 00:30:55 2009 From: dlormand at smalltimer.net (David Ormand) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 22:30:55 -0700 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college, speech disrupted by arson.) Message-ID: <4B21D90F.7060406@smalltimer.net> > The true "Church" (believers and local fellowships > of believers) would be far healthier if every evidence > of man's religious inventions between the time of the > authorship of the NT and now would suddenly disappear > and everyone was forced to rely upon the Bible and > nothing but. Speaking as a (Southern) Baptist, and one who is currently studying Calvinism vs. Arminianism, and has a Reformed Church in America branch in his neighborhood (which has sparked curiosity leading to investigation) and having friends in Methodist, Presbyterian, and Catholic churches, I would say with confidence that _every single one of us_ would say we are following the Bible. Now, the Catholics are at least honest enough to say, "and the traditions of the church". Truth is, all of us bring our traditions to the Bible. With Southern Baptists, it has been "No Drinking" (and yes, "no dancing, no card-playing" and maybe a few more "no's", too. Oh, and my fav - "no divorced men as pastors or deacons"). This "No Drinking" goes so far as to have preachers expositing from the pulpit that "Jesus only drank unfermented grape juice." These traditions come out of our histories. We need to acknowledge the extent to which our denominational histories influence our interpretation of the Bible. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From d.kuntadi at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 00:33:15 2009 From: d.kuntadi at gmail.com (David Kuntadi) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 12:33:15 +0700 Subject: [Linux4christians] Bride of Christ [Was: Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson.] In-Reply-To: <1260508782.13561.9.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> References: <9844155d0912081907n60cf3cb6tbe9957906be6e2b2@mail.gmail.com> <20091209211648.OTVG7.396954.root@mp07> <9844155d0912091821j168406a1j691d739a7a887f9a@mail.gmail.com> <4B208318.1020907@lightlink.com> <1260508782.13561.9.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> Message-ID: <9844155d0912102133m42c2d297p954c040dfe3158d1@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 12:19 PM, Mike McMullin wrote: > ?Agreed, salvation through works is an idea that permeates Islam. ?(hey > back on topic almost ?;) Right. That is why they would try their best to do good deeds. Not that bad? DK From mwmcmlln at mnsi.net Fri Dec 11 01:03:58 2009 From: mwmcmlln at mnsi.net (Mike McMullin) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 01:03:58 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] EU President Admits One-World Government is Here In-Reply-To: <4B21C0BA.3050309@lightlink.com> References: <4B21C0BA.3050309@lightlink.com> Message-ID: <1260511438.13561.13.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> But NAFTA didn't send the hi-tech jobs to the Orient,it sent the Auto jobs to Mexico. Trust me Fred, those lost hi-tech jobs bode a whole lot worse for the Northern 2 members of NAFTA, than our lost jobs to Mexico. On Thu, 2009-12-10 at 22:47 -0500, Fred A. Miller wrote: > Kinda goes along with some of what we've been talking about. > > Fred > _______________ > > Who's laughing now? Of course, I can imagine "some of them" I once > worked with exclaiming how "they knew it would come to this" and "how > inevitable it was" and "how benevolent this is" but they speak lies. > They didn't see it then and they likely don't see it now. They do not > recognize that NAFTA would be the tool of tools, so to speak, to rip > the > manufacturing base from this nation. This exacerbated the credit and > housing "issues" and is the true reason for the Economic Depression > we're in now. - Kevin > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEqFtVrAgSo&feature=player_embedded > > Global Governance - EU President Admits One-World Government is here > NWO - > New World Order > -- > A REVOLUTIONARY IDEA! > 'Time to put Nana Pelosi in a home!' > _______________________________________________ > Linux4christians mailing list > Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians From mwmcmlln at mnsi.net Fri Dec 11 01:08:23 2009 From: mwmcmlln at mnsi.net (Mike McMullin) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 01:08:23 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Bride of Christ [Was: Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson.] In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912102133m42c2d297p954c040dfe3158d1@mail.gmail.com> References: <9844155d0912081907n60cf3cb6tbe9957906be6e2b2@mail.gmail.com> <20091209211648.OTVG7.396954.root@mp07> <9844155d0912091821j168406a1j691d739a7a887f9a@mail.gmail.com> <4B208318.1020907@lightlink.com> <1260508782.13561.9.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912102133m42c2d297p954c040dfe3158d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1260511703.13561.17.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 12:33 +0700, David Kuntadi wrote: > On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 12:19 PM, Mike McMullin wrote: > > Agreed, salvation through works is an idea that permeates Islam. (hey > > back on topic almost ;) > > Right. That is why they would try their best to do good deeds. Not that bad? Yes, that bad. God offers us selfless interest for His purposes, Works offers us selfish interests for our own ends. It (Works) is theologically and philosophically inferior. From tbutler at ofb.biz Fri Dec 11 01:27:19 2009 From: tbutler at ofb.biz (Timothy Butler) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 00:27:19 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Bride of Christ [Was: Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson.] In-Reply-To: <9844155d0912102133m42c2d297p954c040dfe3158d1@mail.gmail.com> References: <9844155d0912081907n60cf3cb6tbe9957906be6e2b2@mail.gmail.com> <20091209211648.OTVG7.396954.root@mp07> <9844155d0912091821j168406a1j691d739a7a887f9a@mail.gmail.com> <4B208318.1020907@lightlink.com> <1260508782.13561.9.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912102133m42c2d297p954c040dfe3158d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <30252B23-2498-4E72-B0FD-090EDCB67D0A@ofb.biz> On Dec 10, 2009, at 11:33 PM, David Kuntadi wrote: > On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 12:19 PM, Mike McMullin > wrote: >> Agreed, salvation through works is an idea that permeates Islam. >> (hey >> back on topic almost ;) > > Right. That is why they would try their best to do good deeds. Not > that bad? Well, it isn't bad that they do good deeds. What is bad is when people (including Muslims) are led into a false hope of thinking their good deeds will earn salvation. -Tim --- Timothy R. Butler | "It may be that when the angels go about their Editor, OfB.biz | task praising God, they play only Bach. I am tbutler at ofb.biz | sure, however, that when they are together en timothybutler.us | famille they play Mozart." -- Karl Barth From tbutler at ofb.biz Fri Dec 11 01:28:01 2009 From: tbutler at ofb.biz (Timothy Butler) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 00:28:01 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college, speech disrupted by arson.) In-Reply-To: <4B21D90F.7060406@smalltimer.net> References: <4B21D90F.7060406@smalltimer.net> Message-ID: On Dec 10, 2009, at 11:30 PM, David Ormand wrote: > These traditions come out of our histories. We > need to acknowledge the extent to which our > denominational histories influence our interpretation > of the Bible. Amen! And keep talking to those RCA folks. ;-) -Tim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mITw at shaw.ca Fri Dec 11 01:47:34 2009 From: mITw at shaw.ca (making IT work) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 06:47:34 +0000 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college speech... ) - I do protest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1260514054.3066.26.camel@Leysin> Le jeudi 10 d?cembre 2009 ? 19:02 -0500, linux4christians-request at thelinuxlink.net a ?crit : > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:37:19 -0500 > From: Pastor David > To: Linux for Christians > Subject: Re: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college > speech disrupted by arson.) > Message-ID: <4B21781F.9030703 at bibleseven.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed ... > While Presbyterians and Methodists and Lutherans and > others may fairly be labeled "Protest-ants" as they > were created in "protest" against some (not all) of > the non-Biblical practices of the Roman Catholic > religious/political organization. I do protest that Prontestants are not Con-testors, i.e., not solely 'againers'. While attempting to reform the Roman Church they were above all testifying in favour of (hence,pro-testing) the three solas, i.e., sola scriptura (Scripture alone), sola fide (faith alone) and sola gratia (Grace alone). Certainly there also were things they had to contest - but it is their pro stance that remains the more important - at least to me. It is indeed sad that the word 'protest', at least in the minds of many, has been changed to mean 'This is what I am against' rather than 'Hey! This is what I stand FOR.' Georges From mark.ross at oi.com.br Fri Dec 11 03:51:22 2009 From: mark.ross at oi.com.br (mark.ross at oi.com.br) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 06:51:22 -0200 Subject: [Linux4christians] remove me from the list Message-ID: <20091211065122.13144sq2jrcyxb0q@webmail6.oi.com.br> the topics in this mailing list have practically stopped being about the linux system and it's use. instead, you have people like fred miller who continually introduces useless and controversial topics that aren't related to linux. i ask to be removed from the linux 4 christians mailing list. thanks !! mark a. ross -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quer deixar seu Oi com a sua cara? No Mundo Oi voc? baixa toques, v?deos, jogos, m?sicas completas e encontra servi?os incr?veis pro seu Oi e pra internet. Acesse http://www.mundooi.oi.com.br e descubra! From l4c at thelinuxlink.net Fri Dec 11 07:44:02 2009 From: l4c at thelinuxlink.net (l4c) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 07:44:02 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] remove me from the list In-Reply-To: <20091211065122.13144sq2jrcyxb0q@webmail6.oi.com.br> References: <20091211065122.13144sq2jrcyxb0q@webmail6.oi.com.br> Message-ID: <4B223E92.4000706@thelinuxlink.net> mark.ross at oi.com.br wrote: > the topics in this mailing list have practically stopped being about the > linux system and it's use. instead, you have people like fred miller who > continually introduces useless and controversial topics that aren't > related to linux. i ask to be removed from the linux 4 christians > mailing list. thanks !! > > mark a. ross > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Quer deixar seu Oi com a sua cara? No Mundo Oi voc? baixa toques, v?deos, > jogos, m?sicas completas e encontra servi?os incr?veis pro seu Oi e pra > internet. Acesse http://www.mundooi.oi.com.br e descubra! > > _______________________________________________ > Linux4christians mailing list > Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians > Once again, this list is for Christians who use Linux. Either topic is acceptable. If you wish to see more Linux topics, please feel free to post one. If you wish to leave the list, please feel free to read your messages all the way to the bottom where each and every one gives a link where you can change your settings and/or unsubscribe. From wa3fkg at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 07:48:10 2009 From: wa3fkg at gmail.com (Ken Sprouse) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 07:48:10 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] remove me from the list In-Reply-To: <20091211065122.13144sq2jrcyxb0q@webmail6.oi.com.br> References: <20091211065122.13144sq2jrcyxb0q@webmail6.oi.com.br> Message-ID: Mark, I made the same mistake a few months ago. I was about to leave the list because of a lack of postings related directly to Linux thinking it was just a poorly moderated list. Such is not the case. If you go back and read the documents that were emailed to you when you subscribed to the list you will find that the list is doing exactly as its creator intended. I enjoy some of the "off topic" posts that go on here and have learned to simply delete those that are of no interest to me. Our church also operates a school and so any pointers on Linux software that I find are well worth while. If you still wish to depart from the list there is a link at the bottom of each message that will give you instructions too do so. I find the list worth while. Have a great day in the Lord, ----Ken On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 3:51 AM, wrote: > the topics in this mailing list have practically stopped being about the > linux system and it's use. instead, you have people like fred miller who > continually introduces useless and controversial topics that aren't > related to linux. i ask to be removed from the linux 4 christians > mailing list. thanks !! > > mark a. ross > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Quer deixar seu Oi com a sua cara? No Mundo Oi voc? baixa toques, v?deos, > jogos, m?sicas completas e encontra servi?os incr?veis pro seu Oi e pra > internet. Acesse http://www.mundooi.oi.com.br e descubra! > > _______________________________________________ > Linux4christians mailing list > Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians > -- Ken Sprouse / WA3FKG http://www.wa3fkg.com John 3:16 Please address all complaints to /dev/null The box said "Win98/2000/XP or better" so I installed Linux! Glock - The ultimate point and click user interface. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gorkon at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 08:09:37 2009 From: gorkon at gmail.com (Joel Mclaughlin) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 08:09:37 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] remove me from the list In-Reply-To: References: <20091211065122.13144sq2jrcyxb0q@webmail6.oi.com.br> Message-ID: <6dd08b10912110509p1f09872dj9cc9f6fdf11d8289@mail.gmail.com> Controversy is ok. If I don't feel like getting in the conversation, I don't. I don't know diddly about doctrination or really DEEP theology or why some of the stuff that has been posted even should matter to us (sometimes we aren't the best at communication these things). The ONE Linux post this week was about doing something we already should do as good Linux users....that is don't just install anything you come across on your system or you will get malware. Anyway, if I don't feel like reading a post....that's what the delete key is for. We SHOULD get into discussion but we should stop the instant it starts to turn to flames. Flaming one another on a mail list is something we should not do. On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 7:48 AM, Ken Sprouse wrote: > Mark, > > I made the same mistake a few months ago.? I was about to leave the list > because of a lack of postings related directly to Linux thinking it was just > a poorly moderated list.? Such is not the case.? If you go back and read the > documents that were emailed to you when you subscribed to the list you will > find that the list is doing exactly as its creator intended.? I enjoy some > of the "off topic" posts that go on here and have learned to simply delete > those that are of no interest to me.? Our church also operates a school and > so any pointers on Linux software that I find are well worth while.? If you > still wish to depart from the list there is a link at the bottom of each > message that will give you instructions too do so.? I find the list worth > while. > > Have a great day in the Lord, > > ----Ken > > On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 3:51 AM, wrote: >> >> the topics in this mailing list have practically stopped being about the >> linux system and it's use. instead, you have people like fred miller who >> continually introduces useless and controversial topics that aren't >> related to linux. i ask to be removed from the linux 4 christians >> mailing list. thanks !! >> >> mark a. ross >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Quer deixar seu Oi com a sua cara? No Mundo Oi voc? baixa toques, v?deos, >> jogos, m?sicas completas e encontra servi?os incr?veis pro seu Oi e pra >> internet. Acesse http://www.mundooi.oi.com.br e descubra! >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Linux4christians mailing list >> Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net >> http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians > > > > -- > Ken Sprouse / WA3FKG ?http://www.wa3fkg.com > John 3:16 > Please address all complaints to /dev/null > The box said "Win98/2000/XP or better" so I installed Linux! > Glock - The ultimate point and click user interface. > > _______________________________________________ > Linux4christians mailing list > Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians > > -- Joel McLaughlin Life in Ohio Podcast life.in.ohio.pod at gmail.com gorkon at gmail.com http://lifeinohio.libsyn.com joel at geardiary.com geardiary.com Mike Ditka - "If God had wanted man to play soccer, he wouldn't have given us arms." - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/mike_ditka.html From l4c at thelinuxlink.net Fri Dec 11 08:23:12 2009 From: l4c at thelinuxlink.net (l4c) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 08:23:12 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] About Fred: Message-ID: <4B2247C0.5020801@thelinuxlink.net> I just wanted to drop a little note here about Fred. A lot of people complain to me offline about Fred and his posts and his opinions. Here is what I think: I, personally, want to publicly thank and acknowledge my Brother Fred, who, seemingly tirelessly at times, waves his flag, which has a giant cross on it, for all to see. Now, I may not always agree with Brother Fred, though I almost always do, he definitely has the jumbles to stand up for what he believes and, in fact, shout it from the rooftops if necessary. I really admire that about him, the depth of his conviction, and his love for his savior. As I have stated before, I personally detest pantywaist, pew warming "cultural Christians". You all know the type I am talking about. These are the kind of people that whine to me endlessly about people like Brother Fred. Well, a note to them, I wish I were more like Brother Fred. You should too. For the rest of you who have stuck it out on this list and are not afraid to have the great discussions about Christianity or about Linux or about whatever, I want to thank you too. It makes me proud to hang around (even virtually) with some great scholars, learners and lovers of Christ - people who aren't afraid to say it OR do it. Though I may not actively participate in a lot of conversations on the list, you can be sure I am here, watching and listening. Merry Christmas! -Rev. Linc. From l4c at thelinuxlink.net Fri Dec 11 08:24:55 2009 From: l4c at thelinuxlink.net (l4c) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 08:24:55 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] remove me from the list In-Reply-To: <6dd08b10912110509p1f09872dj9cc9f6fdf11d8289@mail.gmail.com> References: <20091211065122.13144sq2jrcyxb0q@webmail6.oi.com.br> <6dd08b10912110509p1f09872dj9cc9f6fdf11d8289@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B224827.7050102@thelinuxlink.net> Joel Mclaughlin wrote: > Controversy is ok. If I don't feel like getting in the conversation, > I don't. I don't know diddly about doctrination or really DEEP > theology or why some of the stuff that has been posted even should > matter to us (sometimes we aren't the best at communication these > things). The ONE Linux post this week was about doing something we > already should do as good Linux users....that is don't just install > anything you come across on your system or you will get malware. > Anyway, if I don't feel like reading a post....that's what the delete > key is for. > > We SHOULD get into discussion but we should stop the instant it starts > to turn to flames. Flaming one another on a mail list is something we > should not do. And this is why I love Joel - just can't beat that logic can ya? :-) --Linc. From gorkon at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 09:01:51 2009 From: gorkon at gmail.com (Joel Mclaughlin) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 09:01:51 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] About Fred: In-Reply-To: <4B2247C0.5020801@thelinuxlink.net> References: <4B2247C0.5020801@thelinuxlink.net> Message-ID: <6dd08b10912110601u8abc1cet5d2134faa0805d7f@mail.gmail.com> I got a good topic.... My small group at Church is going through a group study based on the book the Man Code. The Man Code is: 1 3 12 120 3000 1. God....the one and only. 3. Your inner circle. These are the 3 guys you are closest with and you will do anything for. It doesn't have to be limited to 3, but it should be small. 12. This is a group of guys you like to hang with. Some are Christians, some are not. They don't tear you down but build you up. Not as close as the three. 120. The Church. This is the Church of which MEN should be heavily involved in. 3000. The city/state/world (not sure why this number is chosen. I bet it has to do with the size of biblical cities...we are doing this chapter this week) Because of the 120 and the LACK of men doing anything in MOST churches, we're deciding to organize a mens event at the Church. Now I need ideas! What would get you to a event at a Church?? What would get non Christians?? What would be a great title for the event?? On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 8:23 AM, l4c wrote: > I just wanted to drop a little note here about Fred. > > A lot of people complain to me offline about Fred and his posts and his > opinions. ?Here is what I think: > > I, personally, want to publicly thank and acknowledge my Brother Fred, who, > seemingly tirelessly at times, waves his flag, which has a giant cross on > it, for all to see. ?Now, I may not always agree with Brother Fred, though I > almost always do, he definitely has the jumbles to stand up for what he > believes and, in fact, shout it from the rooftops if necessary. ?I really > admire that about him, the depth of his conviction, and his love for his > savior. > > As I have stated before, I personally detest pantywaist, pew warming > "cultural Christians". ?You all know the type I am talking about. ?These are > the kind of people that whine to me endlessly about people like Brother > Fred. ?Well, a note to them, I wish I were more like Brother Fred. ?You > should too. > > For the rest of you who have stuck it out on this list and are not afraid to > have the great discussions about Christianity or about Linux or about > whatever, I want to thank you too. ?It makes me proud to hang around (even > virtually) with some great scholars, learners and lovers of Christ - people > who aren't afraid to say it OR do it. ?Though I may not actively participate > in a lot of conversations on the list, you can be sure I am here, watching > and listening. > > Merry Christmas! > -Rev. Linc. > _______________________________________________ > Linux4christians mailing list > Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians > -- Joel McLaughlin Life in Ohio Podcast life.in.ohio.pod at gmail.com gorkon at gmail.com http://lifeinohio.libsyn.com joel at geardiary.com geardiary.com Ted Turner - "Sports is like a war without the killing." - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/ted_turner.html From samuel.clough at trumpetsofzion.org Fri Dec 11 09:12:28 2009 From: samuel.clough at trumpetsofzion.org (Samuel Clough) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 08:12:28 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] remove me from the list In-Reply-To: <4B224827.7050102@thelinuxlink.net> References: <20091211065122.13144sq2jrcyxb0q@webmail6.oi.com.br> <6dd08b10912110509p1f09872dj9cc9f6fdf11d8289@mail.gmail.com> <4B224827.7050102@thelinuxlink.net> Message-ID: <7af3c5520912110612j38711acak37947289fac94cc8@mail.gmail.com> I guess I should officially say goodbye. I've enjoyed the personalities and perspectives on this list, but I'm just tired of hitting delete at this point and that's what I'm doing for 98% of the messages. Interestingly I actually love theology as I work at a missions organization where we are required to spend at least 4 hours a day together in prayer and the Word and so are constantly discussing the Scriptures. Actually, we are in the midst of a small awakening among our student body that is proving to be a powerful move of the Spirit and has required extra meetings 4 nights a week for the last month. All that to say that the proclamation of Jesus is very dear to my heart, but I'm wired for face to face and not internet discussion. Like many others, I signed on to this list years ago for Linux info expecting some off topic chatter, as with any list, but the discussion list honestly should be renamed to something more generic. Blessings, Samuel On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 7:24 AM, l4c wrote: > Joel Mclaughlin wrote: > >> Controversy is ok. If I don't feel like getting in the conversation, >> I don't. I don't know diddly about doctrination or really DEEP >> theology or why some of the stuff that has been posted even should >> matter to us (sometimes we aren't the best at communication these >> things). The ONE Linux post this week was about doing something we >> already should do as good Linux users....that is don't just install >> anything you come across on your system or you will get malware. >> Anyway, if I don't feel like reading a post....that's what the delete >> key is for. >> >> We SHOULD get into discussion but we should stop the instant it starts >> to turn to flames. Flaming one another on a mail list is something we >> should not do. >> > > And this is why I love Joel - just can't beat that logic can ya? :-) > > --Linc. > > _______________________________________________ > Linux4christians mailing list > Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michelefessenden at hotmail.com Fri Dec 11 09:32:18 2009 From: michelefessenden at hotmail.com (michele fessenden) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 09:32:18 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] remove me from the list In-Reply-To: <7af3c5520912110612j38711acak37947289fac94cc8@mail.gmail.com> References: <20091211065122.13144sq2jrcyxb0q@webmail6.oi.com.br>, , <6dd08b10912110509p1f09872dj9cc9f6fdf11d8289@mail.gmail.com>, <4B224827.7050102@thelinuxlink.net>, <7af3c5520912110612j38711acak37947289fac94cc8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 08:12:28 -0600 From: samuel.clough at trumpetsofzion.org To: linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net Subject: Re: [Linux4christians] remove me from the list I guess I should officially say goodbye. I've enjoyed the personalities and perspectives on this list, but I'm just tired of hitting delete at this point and that's what I'm doing for 98% of the messages. Interestingly I actually love theology as I work at a missions organization where we are required to spend at least 4 hours a day together in prayer and the Word and so are constantly discussing the Scriptures. Actually, we are in the midst of a small awakening among our student body that is proving to be a powerful move of the Spirit and has required extra meetings 4 nights a week for the last month. All that to say that the proclamation of Jesus is very dear to my heart, but I'm wired for face to face and not internet discussion. Like many others, I signed on to this list years ago for Linux info expecting some off topic chatter, as with any list, but the discussion list honestly should be renamed to something more generic. Blessings,Samuel On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 7:24 AM, l4c wrote: Joel Mclaughlin wrote: Controversy is ok. If I don't feel like getting in the conversation, I don't. I don't know diddly about doctrination or really DEEP theology or why some of the stuff that has been posted even should matter to us (sometimes we aren't the best at communication these things). The ONE Linux post this week was about doing something we already should do as good Linux users....that is don't just install anything you come across on your system or you will get malware. Anyway, if I don't feel like reading a post....that's what the delete key is for. We SHOULD get into discussion but we should stop the instant it starts to turn to flames. Flaming one another on a mail list is something we should not do. And this is why I love Joel - just can't beat that logic can ya? :-) --Linc. _______________________________________________ Linux4christians mailing list Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians I am surprised that people don't read the fine print before they sign up for things. This list is what it is. It may not be for all but if you want to leave just do it. Why make a big deal out of it by posting what you "hate" about certain things being said or certain topics. When I see the headline Linux4christians I take it that it could be a Linux discussion or fellow Christians could talk about religion. My point is why be so negative, if you don't like what you see delete it or click on the link at the end of every post to remove yourself from the list. I also don't like how some of you think the list should be different (different name, rules, etc). If you feel this way create your own list, then you can run it however you want. If I sound crabby its because this is not as big as a deal as some are making it out to be and again there are way more important things in life than complaining about how you think things should be run. Don't like it, change it. There is no need for negativity among "brothers". _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Fri Dec 11 10:09:36 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 10:09:36 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] remove me from the list In-Reply-To: References: <20091211065122.13144sq2jrcyxb0q@webmail6.oi.com.br>, , <6dd08b10912110509p1f09872dj9cc9f6fdf11d8289@mail.gmail.com>, <4B224827.7050102@thelinuxlink.net>, <7af3c5520912110612j38711acak37947289fac94cc8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B2260B0.2040305@bibleseven.com> I have wished for a parallel OT-linux4christians list as is a common practice elsewhere and which solves the problem of distracting from the list purpose while still allowing the community to remain intact. Would this solve the problem for those unhappy with the current format? > michele fessenden wrote: > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 08:12:28 -0600 > From: samuel.clough at trumpetsofzion.org > To: linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > Subject: Re: [Linux4christians] remove me from the list > > I guess I should officially say goodbye. I've enjoyed the personalities > and perspectives on this list, but I'm just tired of hitting delete at > this point and that's what I'm doing for 98% of the messages. > > Interestingly I actually love theology as I work at a missions > organization where we are required to spend at least 4 hours a day > together in prayer and the Word and so are constantly discussing the > Scriptures. Actually, we are in the midst of a small awakening among > our student body that is proving to be a powerful move of the Spirit and > has required extra meetings 4 nights a week for the last month. All > that to say that the proclamation of Jesus is very dear to my heart, but > I'm wired for face to face and not internet discussion. > > Like many others, I signed on to this list years ago for Linux info > expecting some off topic chatter, as with any list, but the discussion > list honestly should be renamed to something more generic. > > Blessings, > Samuel > > On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 7:24 AM, l4c > wrote: > > Joel Mclaughlin wrote: > > Controversy is ok. If I don't feel like getting in the > conversation, > I don't. I don't know diddly about doctrination or really DEEP > theology or why some of the stuff that has been posted even should > matter to us (sometimes we aren't the best at communication these > things). The ONE Linux post this week was about doing something we > already should do as good Linux users....that is don't just install > anything you come across on your system or you will get malware. > Anyway, if I don't feel like reading a post....that's what the > delete > key is for. > > We SHOULD get into discussion but we should stop the instant it > starts > to turn to flames. Flaming one another on a mail list is > something we > should not do. > > > And this is why I love Joel - just can't beat that logic can ya? :-) > > --Linc. > > _______________________________________________ > Linux4christians mailing list > Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians > > I am surprised that people don't read the fine print before they > sign up for things. This list is what it is. It may not be for all > but if you want to leave just do it. Why make a big deal out of it > by posting what you "hate" about certain things being said or > certain topics. When I see the headline Linux4christians I take it > that it could be a Linux discussion or fellow Christians could talk > about religion. My point is why be so negative, if you don't like > what you see delete it or click on the link at the end of every post > to remove yourself from the list. I also don't like how some of you > think the list should be different (different name, rules, etc). If > you feel this way create your own list, then you can run it however > you want. If I sound crabby its because this is not as big as a > deal as some are making it out to be and again there are way more > important things in life than complaining about how you think things > should be run. Don't like it, change it. There is no need for > negativity among "brothers". > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. Sign > up now. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Linux4christians mailing list > Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Fri Dec 11 10:17:32 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 10:17:32 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college, speech disrupted by arson.) In-Reply-To: <4B21D90F.7060406@smalltimer.net> References: <4B21D90F.7060406@smalltimer.net> Message-ID: <4B22628C.3090006@bibleseven.com> And then we need to reconcile them with the Bible - and purge those which conflict with the Bible. As Pagan Christianity notes, some traditions are harmless, many are not at all harmless - especially when they teach a value or impose a "law" that is non-Biblical. BTW: I still believe that based on the Bible Calvin and Arminius both promulgated Biblical heresy, as does the RC religious-political entity. > David Ormand wrote: > These traditions come out of our histories. We > need to acknowledge the extent to which our > denominational histories influence our interpretation > of the Bible. -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Fri Dec 11 10:18:38 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 10:18:38 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Bride of Christ [Was: Ex-Muslim's college speech disrupted by arson.] In-Reply-To: <30252B23-2498-4E72-B0FD-090EDCB67D0A@ofb.biz> References: <9844155d0912081907n60cf3cb6tbe9957906be6e2b2@mail.gmail.com> <20091209211648.OTVG7.396954.root@mp07> <9844155d0912091821j168406a1j691d739a7a887f9a@mail.gmail.com> <4B208318.1020907@lightlink.com> <1260508782.13561.9.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> <9844155d0912102133m42c2d297p954c040dfe3158d1@mail.gmail.com> <30252B23-2498-4E72-B0FD-090EDCB67D0A@ofb.biz> Message-ID: <4B2262CE.2090100@bibleseven.com> Or when they are told that murder and slavery are "good deeds" in the eyes of "Allah". > Well, it isn't bad that they do good deeds. What is bad > is when people (including Muslims) are led into a false > hope of thinking their good deeds will earn salvation. > > -Tim -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Fri Dec 11 10:22:08 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 10:22:08 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college speech... ) - I do protest In-Reply-To: <1260514054.3066.26.camel@Leysin> References: <1260514054.3066.26.camel@Leysin> Message-ID: <4B2263A0.6010203@bibleseven.com> I get your protest against Protestant/Con-testors but OTOH it is fair due to the great degree with which "Protestant" denominations carried-forward so many of the non-Biblical practices of the RC organization. "Pagan Christianity" does a good job of observing many of those practices. > I do protest that Prontestants are not Con-testors, i.e., not solely > 'againers'. While attempting to reform the Roman Church they were above > all testifying in favour of (hence,pro-testing) the three solas, i.e., > sola scriptura (Scripture alone), sola fide (faith alone) and sola > gratia (Grace alone). Certainly there also were things they had to > contest - but it is their pro stance that remains the more important - > at least to me. > > It is indeed sad that the word 'protest', at least in the minds of many, > has been changed to mean 'This is what I am against' rather than 'Hey! > This is what I stand FOR.' > > Georges -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Fri Dec 11 10:30:10 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 10:30:10 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] About Fred: In-Reply-To: <6dd08b10912110601u8abc1cet5d2134faa0805d7f@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B2247C0.5020801@thelinuxlink.net> <6dd08b10912110601u8abc1cet5d2134faa0805d7f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B226582.8060601@bibleseven.com> We have men serving their wives Valentine's dinner, men serving young men by teaming with them to teach them some skill or to mentor them where they'd like to improve a skill, and men doing projects in the community - first for believers and then for non-believers in order to earn the right to be heard for Christ. As for the numbers thing -- be very careful as the propensity is for people to get lost in the symbols in order to not have to deal with the issues. > Joel Mclaughlin wrote: > I got a good topic.... > > My small group at Church is going through a group study based on the > book the Man Code. The Man Code is: > > 1 3 12 120 3000 > > 1. God....the one and only. > 3. Your inner circle. These are the 3 guys you are closest with and > you will do anything for. It doesn't have to be limited to 3, but it > should be small. > 12. This is a group of guys you like to hang with. Some are > Christians, some are not. They don't tear you down but build you up. > Not as close as the three. > 120. The Church. This is the Church of which MEN should be heavily involved in. > 3000. The city/state/world (not sure why this number is chosen. I > bet it has to do with the size of biblical cities...we are doing this > chapter this week) > > Because of the 120 and the LACK of men doing anything in MOST > churches, we're deciding to organize a mens event at the Church. Now > I need ideas! What would get you to a event at a Church?? What would > get non Christians?? What would be a great title for the event?? -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From chris at deksai.com Fri Dec 11 10:36:40 2009 From: chris at deksai.com (Chris) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 10:36:40 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] remove me from the list In-Reply-To: <20091211065122.13144sq2jrcyxb0q@webmail6.oi.com.br> References: <20091211065122.13144sq2jrcyxb0q@webmail6.oi.com.br> Message-ID: <20091211153634.GA2515@chris-laptop.a2hosting.com> What a great opportunity to put this back on topic!! Here are some things I use all the time. Why spend time hitting delete when it's obvious that we use computers to do all kinds of other things automatically. Here are some great links for starters. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sieve_%28mail_filtering_language%29 http://www.procmail.org/ http://kb.mozillazine.org/Filters_%28Thunderbird%29 http://sylpheed.sraoss.jp/doc/manual/en/sylpheed-12.html http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/feature/11433.html http://mutt.blackfish.org.uk/filtering/ etc etc Oh, and since there is bound to be some heretics lurking here: http://www.klis.com/support/kwikshield/outlook.html If anyone needs help getting them set up, there is a mailing list full of Christian Linux users you can ask at linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net. They, including myself, will be more than happy to assist. I can assure you that these techniques are effective, and that you'll soon save enough time to post to your favorite mailing list! ;-) From gorkon at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 10:42:15 2009 From: gorkon at gmail.com (Joel Mclaughlin) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 10:42:15 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] About Fred: In-Reply-To: <4B226582.8060601@bibleseven.com> References: <4B2247C0.5020801@thelinuxlink.net> <6dd08b10912110601u8abc1cet5d2134faa0805d7f@mail.gmail.com> <4B226582.8060601@bibleseven.com> Message-ID: <6dd08b10912110742k7672af68j1b9155e8e6623afa@mail.gmail.com> If you read the book, the numbers were picked for some significance.....for example 12 is the number of disciples. However the book itself doesn't dwell on the numbers, merely on what each group means and why Men should have them or why men work in the Church. As for serving on Valentines day and whatnot, that's not a "men's" event. I am speaking more of having men of faith and some men who are interested but may not be Christian coming together and learning about God and worshiping together. TEACH the men WHY they need to serve as well as the importance of scripture and relationships with God. On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Pastor David wrote: > We have men serving their wives Valentine's dinner, men serving young men by > teaming with them to teach them some skill or to mentor them where they'd > like to improve a skill, and men doing projects in the community - first for > believers and then for non-believers in order to earn the right to be heard > for Christ. > > As for the numbers thing -- be very careful as the propensity is for people > to get lost in the symbols in > order to not have to deal with the issues. > >> Joel Mclaughlin wrote: >> >> I got a good topic.... >> >> My small group at Church is going through a group study based on the >> book the Man Code. ?The Man Code is: >> >> 1 3 12 120 3000 >> >> 1. God....the one and only. >> 3. Your inner circle. ?These are the 3 guys you are closest with and >> you will do anything for. ?It doesn't have to be limited to 3, but it >> should be small. >> 12. ?This is a group of guys you like to hang with. ?Some are >> Christians, some are not. ?They don't tear you down but build you up. >> Not as close as the three. >> 120. The Church. ?This is the Church of which MEN should be heavily >> involved in. >> 3000. ?The city/state/world ?(not sure why this number is chosen. ?I >> bet it has to do with the size of biblical cities...we are doing this >> chapter this week) >> >> Because of the 120 and the LACK of men doing anything in MOST >> churches, we're deciding to organize a mens event at the Church. ?Now >> I need ideas! ?What would get you to a event at a Church?? ?What would >> get non Christians?? ?What would be a great title for the event?? > > -- > > Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! ?Pastor David > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist > http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) > Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional > http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > _______________________________________________ > Linux4christians mailing list > Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians > -- Joel McLaughlin Life in Ohio Podcast life.in.ohio.pod at gmail.com gorkon at gmail.com http://lifeinohio.libsyn.com joel at geardiary.com geardiary.com Stephen Leacock - "I detest life-insurance agents: they always argue that I shall some day die, which is not so." - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/s/stephen_leacock.html From l4c at thelinuxlink.net Fri Dec 11 10:46:51 2009 From: l4c at thelinuxlink.net (l4c) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 10:46:51 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] remove me from the list In-Reply-To: <20091211153634.GA2515@chris-laptop.a2hosting.com> References: <20091211065122.13144sq2jrcyxb0q@webmail6.oi.com.br> <20091211153634.GA2515@chris-laptop.a2hosting.com> Message-ID: <4B22696B.1000102@thelinuxlink.net> Chris wrote: > What a great opportunity to put this back on topic!! > Here are some things I use all the time. Why spend time hitting delete when > it's obvious that we use computers to do all kinds of other things > automatically. > > Here are some great links for starters. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sieve_%28mail_filtering_language%29 > http://www.procmail.org/ > http://kb.mozillazine.org/Filters_%28Thunderbird%29 > http://sylpheed.sraoss.jp/doc/manual/en/sylpheed-12.html > http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/feature/11433.html > http://mutt.blackfish.org.uk/filtering/ > etc > etc > > Oh, and since there is bound to be some heretics lurking here: > http://www.klis.com/support/kwikshield/outlook.html > > If anyone needs help getting them set up, there is a mailing list full of > Christian Linux users you can ask at linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net. They, > including myself, will be more than happy to assist. I can assure you that > these techniques are effective, and that you'll soon save enough time to post > to your favorite mailing list! > > ;-) > _______________________________________________ > Linux4christians mailing list > Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians Hey, speaking of Thunderbrd, have any of you started using the 3.X client yet? I stuck it on my mac on release night (yes, I have a mac too) but I am not entirely sure I actually *like* the new features yet... From mITw at shaw.ca Fri Dec 11 11:15:27 2009 From: mITw at shaw.ca (making IT work) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 08:15:27 -0800 Subject: [Linux4christians] Linux for Christians and Christians for Linux Message-ID: <1260548127.3109.28.camel@Leysin> Dear fatigued brother, I came to this list because I personally believe that all not-for-profit organizations and specifically all Christian organizations and movements ought to be using FOSS (free and open-source software). As a Christian I do not share all of the views of the FOSS movement so this forum fits well for me. Whilst I do not share all of the points of view of the primary posters to this discussion list I do read most of the OT postings. (OK at first I thoust they were Old Testament postings and soon learned that here OT is off-topic - as in this post of mine.) On the other hand, most of the pure Linux posts do not directly apply to me or my situation either - but I also do read many of them. For both situations I find the subject list especially helpful. I also have a message filter set to move L4F messages off to a special folder so they don't get in the way of more urgent (if perhaps less important) eMail. Daily I receive a Linux news feed and two CBC news summaries - and likewise scan the subject lists before I quickly hit my [Suppr] key or choose to read one or another article. All of this to say - Brother please stay, read, and participate. Georges From tbutler at ofb.biz Fri Dec 11 18:50:33 2009 From: tbutler at ofb.biz (Timothy Butler) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 17:50:33 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college, speech disrupted by arson.) In-Reply-To: <4B22628C.3090006@bibleseven.com> References: <4B21D90F.7060406@smalltimer.net> <4B22628C.3090006@bibleseven.com> Message-ID: <2F5BB6C9-D006-4BA4-93F4-4DA0C97B8F98@ofb.biz> On Dec 11, 2009, at 9:17 AM, Pastor David wrote: > BTW: I still believe that based on the Bible Calvin and Arminius > both promulgated Biblical heresy, as does the > RC religious-political entity. Just out of curiosity, do you mean you think both Calvin and Arminius were teaching things that are damnable? Or are you using a broader definition of heresy? -Tim From newsybits at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 18:50:41 2009 From: newsybits at gmail.com (Dave Powell) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 09:50:41 +1000 Subject: [Linux4christians] Getting unbelievers to Church? Message-ID: <9c0d10fd0912111550i3235d93eg968bb294900181d3@mail.gmail.com> *I got a good topic.... My small group at Church is going through a group study based on the book the Man Code. The Man Code is: ...................* * Because of the 120 and the LACK of men doing anything in MOST churches, we're deciding to organize a mens event at the Church. Now I need ideas! What would get you to a event at a Church?? What would get non Christians?? What would be a great title for the event??* I'm not sure about this "Man Code" book thingie. Haven't heard of it before so I can't comment on it. There is one thing, though, that caught my eye in the above comments IE the question about getting men (unbelievers) along to church. I do appreciate the good will there but I do think we will be flogging a dead horse in that venture. People are generally not interested in "going to church" for meaningful reasons. Just for the usual tradition and "doing the right thing" reasons, and then only on a once or twice a year basis. Hebrews 10 tells us that "Church" is for Christians not unbelievers and really unbelievers can't worship as they are "dead". I know that flies in the face of decades of church tradition, and tradition in some matters may be right, but we need to follow the scriptures first. The structure in the obove mentioned book seems to be a bit like the Matthew 28 great commission - starting with home base gradually spreading out to the whole world so if that's what it is about I could go with that. Instead of asking how can we get unbelievers into church we should ask how can we get the believers out into the world (in the world but not of it type thing). Believers are frightened to be know as Christians - they will talk about church but not Jesus, that is too threatening. People in the world want to know if you care about them. Sin is all about questioning God's goodness. Satan questioned God's goodness to Eve and people want to see that God's people do care for them. That then reflects on God and people get a good idea of Him. While we are out there we need to remember that it is the Holy Spirit's job to convert and our job to witness (not necessarily by words either). Many of us feel failures if we don't come home with some knotches on our guns. If we have been faithful in holiness unto the Lord, (especially in this world), we have been successful. My suggestion is to find ways to get your men, in groups, to invite unbelievers to be in their social circle and later on there will be opportunities to speak one's faith to them. The need of the hour is not to speak about the Cross (upfront) as that is a meaningless Church tradition to the general public now-a-days. Our societies on both side of the big water is based on the death principle of evolution so - if we are a product of countless deaths where is the value in one more death. We need now to start with the story of Christ the creator and bring in the aspect of responsibility to Him and them Christ the Saviour has value. Evangelism is best done in the field where the crop is to be picked. I have always had John Mackay from Creation Research (Aus) come to my churches and the meetings always grew. After one meeting a radio announcer told me "the stations' yours" he was that impressed. There is a lot of good medicine out there but pain killers, while having an effect on, won't heal a broken bone. It is the relevance of the message that is important. Hope this has not been too long winded - but then I'm a preacher, hey. - and Fred, keep making noises, just make sure they are useful. We Ausies have lost that world famous larrikin "up your nose with a rubber hose" attitude and retreated into silence. Sad. Kind regards Rev Dave Powell (Home) Ph No. 07 4635 0204 or 0405 450 259 Bible Methodist Church - Kilcoy www.thebmca.org President Darling Downs Christian Conventions Inc Be kinder than necessary. Everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. You never know when a moment and a few sincere words can have an impact on a life for a life. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newsybits at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 19:07:09 2009 From: newsybits at gmail.com (Dave Powell) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 10:07:09 +1000 Subject: [Linux4christians] Parallel lists Message-ID: <9c0d10fd0912111607p14980f03i4c2383a860d60ebb@mail.gmail.com> That would be a good idea. They are both good but when merged it does become frustrating and some what of a wast of time going through stuff that only gets deleted. It is hard to please all, hey. Dave Kind regards Rev Dave Powell (Home) Ph No. 07 4635 0204 or 0405 450 259 Bible Methodist Church - Kilcoy www.thebmca.org President Darling Downs Christian Conventions Inc Be kinder than necessary. Everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. You never know when a moment and a few sincere words can have an impact on a life for a life. Kind regards Rev Dave Powell (Home) Ph No. 07 4635 0204 or 0405 450 259 Bible Methodist Church - Kilcoy www.thebmca.org President Darling Downs Christian Conventions Inc Be kinder than necessary. Everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. You never know when a moment and a few sincere words can have an impact on a life for a life. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Fri Dec 11 19:25:51 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 19:25:51 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college, speech disrupted by arson.) In-Reply-To: <2F5BB6C9-D006-4BA4-93F4-4DA0C97B8F98@ofb.biz> References: <4B21D90F.7060406@smalltimer.net> <4B22628C.3090006@bibleseven.com> <2F5BB6C9-D006-4BA4-93F4-4DA0C97B8F98@ofb.biz> Message-ID: <4B22E30F.4050700@bibleseven.com> It is my reading that they both promote error that makes God a liar; Calvin saying that God "offers" a free will choice for Heaven but really has fixed-the-game and mandated double predestination - rendering the sacrifice of Christ an unnecessary and meaningless charade. Arminius causing the same theological facade - since everyone is saved. I am applying "The test of the logical extreme" to evaluate both philosophies. Proponents of both views do amazing "dances" to avoid the inevitable conclusions of their philosophies - but at the end of the day predestination is merely warmed-over pagan fatalism and cheap grace denies the eternal consequences of sin. Neither philosophy is at all necessary to a right understanding of the Word of God - I know that because God says so - He included *everything* we need in His Word and neither Calvin or Arminius are mentioned nor were they invited to author one of His Books. They were as much political as theological formulations in the days when religion was an excuse for thugs desirous of control and power - not to say that either was such - only that their writings must be understood in proper sociological context. This is why I am so resistant to much, if any, reliance upon "church" history for a right Biblical understanding - just too much politics and too little unpolluted scholarship. As a modern example - our current USA president is incapable of understanding the corrosive consequences of his policies upon the economy, freedom, and national sovereignty because he has been indoctrinated his entire life to despise much of what makes the USA unique. He simply lacks the knowledge and perspective to be wise - and never should have been elected to such an office. Calvin & Arminius were also "captive" to their culture. The best Biblical scholarship begins and ends with the Word of God - any external template dooms one to error - God says so. > On Dec 11, 2009, at 9:17 AM, Pastor David wrote: > >> BTW: I still believe that based on the Bible Calvin and Arminius both >> promulgated Biblical heresy, as does the >> RC religious-political entity. > > Just out of curiosity, do you mean you think both Calvin and > Arminius were teaching things that are damnable? Or are you using a > broader definition of heresy? > > -Tim > -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From bstaggs at staggs.net Fri Dec 11 19:37:20 2009 From: bstaggs at staggs.net (Billy Staggs) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 18:37:20 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college, speech disrupted by arson.) In-Reply-To: <4B22E30F.4050700@bibleseven.com> References: <4B21D90F.7060406@smalltimer.net> <4B22628C.3090006@bibleseven.com><2F5BB6C9-D006-4BA4-93F4-4DA0C97B8F98@ofb.biz> <4B22E30F.4050700@bibleseven.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: linux4christians-bounces at thelinuxlink.net [mailto:linux4christians- > bounces at thelinuxlink.net] On Behalf Of Pastor David > Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 6:26 PM > To: Timothy Butler > Cc: Linux for Christians > Subject: Re: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college, > speech disrupted by arson.) > > Arminius causing the same theological facade - since everyone is saved. > I have never heard that Arminius' taught that "everyone is saved". Hum, I guess I will need to dig a little deeper. Not that I doubt your statement, but could you offer me some link or reference so that I might not in the future misrepresent his position. Thank you, bstaggs <>< From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Fri Dec 11 19:37:18 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 19:37:18 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Getting unbelievers to Church? In-Reply-To: <9c0d10fd0912111550i3235d93eg968bb294900181d3@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c0d10fd0912111550i3235d93eg968bb294900181d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B22E5BE.1090007@bibleseven.com> Excellent points! I keep bringing our folks back to the Garden - reminding them why we are in this mess - and reminding them that God's message has been the same ever since then "Come home or stay lost." First we disciple, then we send. Relationship evangelism, earning the right to be heard among those whom God brings into our circle of contact and influence, is where we need to be - it forces us to get our acts together! After one masters degree in Christian counseling, most of a MDiv, and then an earned doctorate degree in church leadership (spiritual formation) I am persuaded that we need to cease from complicating the simple. One of the finest Christian men and leaders and pastors I know has never completed even Bible college - he was mentored by men of the Word - and knows and applies it better than most of those I know who have advanced seminary educations. God's message has been the same ever since Eden "Come home or stay lost." > Dave Powell wrote: > /I got a good topic.... > > My small group at Church is going through a group study based on the > book the Man Code. The Man Code is: .................../ > / > Because of the 120 and the LACK of men doing anything in MOST > churches, we're deciding to organize a mens event at the Church. Now > I need ideas! What would get you to a event at a Church?? What would > get non Christians?? What would be a great title for the event??/ > > I'm not sure about this "Man Code" book thingie. Haven't heard of it > before so I can't comment on it. There is one thing, though, that caught > my eye in the above comments IE the question about getting men > (unbelievers) along to church. I do appreciate the good will there but I > do think we will be flogging a dead horse in that venture. People are > generally not interested in "going to church" for meaningful reasons. > Just for the usual tradition and "doing the right thing" reasons, and > then only on a once or twice a year basis. > Hebrews 10 tells us that "Church" is for Christians not unbelievers and > really unbelievers can't worship as they are "dead". I know that flies > in the face of decades of church tradition, and tradition in > some matters may be right, but we need to follow the scriptures first. > The structure in the obove mentioned book seems to be a bit like the > Matthew 28 great commission - starting with home base gradually > spreading out to the whole world so if that's what it is about I could > go with that. > > Instead of asking how can we get unbelievers into church we should ask > how can we get the believers out into the world (in the world but not of > it type thing). Believers are frightened to be know as Christians - they > will talk about church but not Jesus, that is too threatening. People in > the world want to know if you care about them. Sin is all about > questioning God's goodness. Satan questioned God's goodness to Eve and > people want to see that God's people do care for them. That > then reflects on God and people get a good idea of Him. > > While we are out there we need to remember that it is the Holy Spirit's > job to convert and our job to witness (not necessarily by words either). > Many of us feel failures if we don't come home with some knotches on our > guns. If we have been faithful in holiness unto the Lord, (especially in > this world), we have been successful. > > My suggestion is to find ways to get your men, in groups, to invite > unbelievers to be in their social circle and later on there will be > opportunities to speak one's faith to them. The need of the hour is not > to speak about the Cross (upfront) as that is a meaningless Church > tradition to the general public now-a-days. Our societies on both side > of the big water is based on the death principle of evolution so - if we > are a product of countless deaths where is the value in one more death. > We need now to start with the story of Christ the creator and bring in > the aspect of responsibility to Him and them Christ the Saviour has value. > > Evangelism is best done in the field where the crop is to be picked. I > have always had John Mackay from Creation Research (Aus) come to > my churches and the meetings always grew. After one meeting a radio > announcer told me "the stations' yours" he was that impressed. There is > a lot of good medicine out there but pain killers, while having an > effect on, won't heal a broken bone. It is the relevance of the message > that is important. > > Hope this has not been too long winded - but then I'm a preacher, hey. > > - and Fred, keep making noises, just make sure they are useful. We > Ausies have lost that world famous larrikin "up your nose with a rubber > hose" attitude and retreated into silence. Sad. > > > Kind regards > Rev Dave Powell (Home) Ph No. 07 4635 0204 or 0405 450 259 > Bible Methodist Church - Kilcoy > www.thebmca.org > > President Darling Downs Christian Conventions Inc > > Be kinder than necessary. Everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. > You never know when a moment and a few sincere words can have an impact > on a life for a life. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Linux4christians mailing list > Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From gorkon at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 19:39:03 2009 From: gorkon at gmail.com (Joel Mclaughlin) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 19:39:03 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Getting unbelievers to Church? In-Reply-To: <9c0d10fd0912111550i3235d93eg968bb294900181d3@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c0d10fd0912111550i3235d93eg968bb294900181d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dd08b10912111639m9b449c5la5eee009bf53048d@mail.gmail.com> While I do agree we must go into the worId I also look more at the benefits of the building. First, we have a sound system. Second, we have displays. Third, while I would always invite a unbeliever to ANY event we have. The event does not have to be a boring church event. The event can be as simple as a MAN'S movie night with a movies like Facing the Giants or maybe a sporting event where a outreach video is shown. Getting the unbeliever to church is not a lost battle and heck it isn't even our battle. God is the only one who can make that person make that leap of faith to come into the building and hopefully God gave the men of the church what they need to help the unbeliever see the light. If getting a unbeliever to church was a lost battle, then why do people EVERYDAY walk into a church or get saved?? Do you know some unbelievers exist that are in the congregation every Sunday? Just because you go to church does not mean you are saved. Also, the other part of the event and probably a big reason for having it is just trying to convince men that it is time to step up and stand for what you believe in and to put up or shut up. Set your stupid crap aside and go volunteer to do something at the church. Go organize a day to help the less fortunate. Go into the public and offer help and the word. DO something other than just occupying a pew every Sunday. It's time we stand up for our faith and stop being afraid of what we are! Stop letting the women of the church be the only leaders. It's not that women are not capable leaders. It's that not enough men ARE leaders in the church. I don't mean pastors....I mean leaders. Small group leaders. Leaders that organize food drives and men's events. Leaders that assist with the technical needs of the Church. Leaders that aren't afraid to witness to others. Too often we sit in the pew and look at our watch and wonder when the pastor is going to finish up so we can go do stuff that is more important....watching football or playing with our computers when in reality god should be more important than that. We need to surround our Pastoral leadership and support them. For example, how many of you on this list even offered to help Rev. Linc get the money together to help pass out Bible's at OLF? I offered to help as much as I could, but unfortunately God didn't bless me with enough cash to get a case of Bibles. However, if each one of us had put up 20 bucks, we could have had something. We could have shared something as well. It's time to stand up men. Stand up for God more than we stand up for Open Source because God is far more important than the next Ubuntu release or how we can put on a show for the congregations with Open Source software. For the guy that asked to leave the list....I am sorry but God is more important always. If we pray before we post what we want to post, not only could it help someone out technically, but spiritually as well. My prayers are with every man and woman on this list. God Bless you and have a wonderful weekend. On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 6:50 PM, Dave Powell wrote: > I got a good topic.... > > My small group at Church is going through a group study based on the > book the Man Code. ?The Man Code is:?................... > Because of the 120 and the LACK of men doing anything in MOST > churches, we're deciding to organize a mens event at the Church. ?Now > I need ideas! ?What would get you to a event at a Church?? ?What would > get non Christians?? ?What would be a great title for the event?? > I'm not sure about this "Man Code" book thingie. Haven't heard of it before > so I can't comment on it. There is one thing, though, that caught my eye in > the above comments IE the question about getting men (unbelievers) along to > church. I do appreciate the good will there but I do think we will be > flogging a dead horse in that venture. People are generally not interested > in "going to church" for meaningful?reasons. Just for the usual tradition > and "doing the right thing" reasons, and then only on a once or twice a year > basis. > Hebrews 10 tells us that "Church" is for Christians not?unbelievers and > really unbelievers can't worship as they are "dead".?I know that flies in > the face of decades of church tradition, and tradition in some?matters?may > be right, but we need to follow the?scriptures?first. > The structure in the obove mentioned book seems to be a bit like the Matthew > 28 great commission - starting with home base gradually spreading out to the > whole world so if that's what it is about I could go with that. > Instead?of asking how can we get?unbelievers?into church we should ask how > can we get the believers out into the world (in the world but not of it type > thing). Believers are frightened to be know as Christians - they will talk > about church but not Jesus, that is too threatening. People in the world > want to know if you care about them. Sin is all about questioning God's > goodness. Satan questioned God's?goodness?to Eve and people want to see that > God's people do care for them. That then?reflects?on God and people get a > good idea of Him. > While we are out there we need to remember that it is the Holy Spirit's job > to convert and our job to witness (not?necessarily?by words either). Many of > us feel failures if we don't come home with some knotches on our guns. If we > have been?faithful?in holiness unto the Lord, (especially in this world), we > have been successful. > My suggestion is to find ways to get your men, in groups, to invite > unbelievers to be in their social circle and later on there will be > opportunities to speak one's faith to them. The need of the hour is not to > speak about the Cross (upfront) as that is a meaningless Church tradition to > the general public now-a-days. Our societies on both side of the big water > is based on the death principle of evolution so - if we are a product of > countless deaths where is the value in one more death. We need now to start > with the story of Christ the creator and bring in the aspect of > responsibility to Him and them Christ the Saviour has value. > Evangelism is best done in the field where the crop is to be picked. I have > always had John Mackay from Creation Research (Aus) come to my?churches?and > the?meetings?always grew. After one meeting a radio announcer told me "the > stations' yours" he was that impressed. There is a lot of good medicine out > there but pain killers, while having an effect on, won't heal a broken bone. > It is the relevance of the message that is?important. > Hope this has not been too long winded - but then I'm a preacher, hey. > - and Fred, keep making noises, just make sure they are useful. We Ausies > have lost that world famous larrikin "up your nose with a rubber hose" > attitude and retreated into silence. Sad. > > Kind regards > Rev Dave Powell (Home) Ph No. 07 4635 0204 or 0405 450 259 > Bible Methodist Church - Kilcoy > www.thebmca.org > > President Darling Downs Christian Conventions Inc > > Be kinder than necessary. Everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. > You never know when a moment and a few sincere words can have an impact on a > life for a life. > > _______________________________________________ > Linux4christians mailing list > Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians > > -- Joel McLaughlin Life in Ohio Podcast life.in.ohio.pod at gmail.com gorkon at gmail.com http://lifeinohio.libsyn.com joel at geardiary.com geardiary.com Charles de Gaulle - "The better I get to know men, the more I find myself loving dogs." - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/c/charles_de_gaulle.html From htgage3 at chartermi.net Fri Dec 11 19:59:49 2009 From: htgage3 at chartermi.net (htgage3 at chartermi.net) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 16:59:49 -0800 Subject: [Linux4christians] Being in the "Bride of Christ" In-Reply-To: <9c0d10fd0912092138o671c61ebi289c838ff5f393c1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091211195949.51SHG.516123.root@mp07> ---- Dave Powell wrote: > Well G'day over there, > I guess the Internet is available for all sorts of comments to be > disseminated. It has been an education watching the conversations of late. > Lots of short almost meaningless comments that I guess somebody knows the > heart of. They are a bit like "in house" comments, you need to be there. > > There are a number of questions that I was going to make a comment on but > decided to just watch but the Bride of Christ is an important subject. > > I notice that some get all excited and make clear comments about some > Christians not being part of the Bride of Christ. Now that is a puzzle. I > would think that if you are not part of the Bride of Christ you are not a > Christian - maybe a pretender but not a Christian. Could someone tell me > what they think the Biblical criteria is for being in the Bride of Christ. Well, Dave. You have read what I've said about the Bride of Christ. You can accept it or reject it. Which you do, I don't know now, but I will in the future. As for you being a methodist, I was raised that way, and found it to be very wrong. Women preachers is one of the reasons. Study for your self in God's word, and see what you come to know about what I've been saying. It is very offensive to some, but to others, it is very good. This is evident from this list. ;-) > Here is something to get excited about - A group of Kenyans have left a > Church in Kenya because of the liberal (or as they said "compromising with > sin) theology developing, as seems to be the case in your and my country > also. They have contacted us through our WWW and want to join with us and be > know as the Bible Methodist Church of Africa. about eight Churches so far I > think. Would any of you put this on your urgent prayer list as we in Aus are > just a small single church and to help them get going is going to be a > challenge. We would appreciate your prayer support. > > Kind regards > Rev Dave Powell (Home) Ph No. 07 4635 0204 or 0405 450 259 > Bible Methodist Church - Kilcoy > www.thebmca.org > > President Darling Downs Christian Conventions Inc > > Be kinder than necessary. Everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. > You never know when a moment and a few sincere words can have an impact on a > life for a life. From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Fri Dec 11 20:00:49 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 20:00:49 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] =?utf-8?b?4oCtSmFtZXMgNSAoU2F0dXJkYXkp?= Message-ID: <4B22EB41.1030507@bibleseven.com> *?James 5 (Saturday)* *?Commentary* James issues a prophesy to the "rich" whom he chastises for hoarding in (or for) the last days. He tells them that all that they have hoarded is ill-gotten and worthless. He notes that their ill-gotten gains came from withholding what was due their workers and that God has heard their cries. They have also mistreated the righteous person - thus bringing God's condemnation upon themselves. [Note: Nowhere in the Bible does God condemn success or wealth, He only condemns the unjust treatment of workers, the neglect of the welfare of brothers and sisters in Christ when resources would allow one to assist them, and the obsession with wealth that brings arrogance, pride, and selfishness - drawing one away from God and into the values of the world.] James encourages the believers to "... be patient and strengthen your hearts", to avoid grumbling "... against one another" as God is watching. He encouraged them to look to the prophets for examples of how one might endure with righteousness. He reminds them of the prohibition against "swearing" on someone or something in order to assert their integrity and to instead be known as people whose "Yes be yes and their No be no." as a consistent testimony to their integrity. James then presents a series of instructions for a solid prayer life: "Is anyone among you suffering? He should pray." [Note: The responsibility for prayer is on the one suffering. Others pray in agreement, in in place of the one with the need.] "Is anyone in good spirits? He should sing praises." [Note: If we pray when we have needs we should celebrate when God blesses us.] "Is anyone among you ill? He should summon the elders of the church, and they should pray for him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith of the one who is sick will raise him up - and even if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven." [Note: James emphasizes "... the prayer of faith", returning to the admonition that we not be double- minded. Also, note James calls for the spiritual leaders of the fellowship to pray in agreement.] "So confess your sins to one another and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great effectiveness." [Note: James is reinforcing the teaching that we need to be accountable to one-another, when we come-clean within the fellowship we keep things transparent and healthy - part of the healing is a result of God's direct intervention and part is through the relationships that are strengthened and the shared-concerns from the prayer. He is also noting the power of being righteous, in contrast to a double-minded person, when one comes before God with prayer. This is not about certain people in a fellowship being "righteous" and therefore having "magical" prayer-power.] James uses Elijah as an example, noting that he was as human as anyone, but that his righteous prayer led to God stopping and then restarting the rains. He concludes with a directive that we care for one another by "... turning back" a brother or sister who has drifted away "... from the truth". [Note: We are our "brother's keeper". We are to watch over others and allow, even encourage, them to watch over us. We no more want to be deceived into drifting away from the truth than we want to see them do so. When we are transparent and mutually-accountable we are stronger.] *Interaction* *Consider* James' exhortation that our "yes be yes and our no be no" so that our integrity is etched into all that we think, say, and do - leading others to trust us and to want to know about the One Who empowers our integrity. *Discuss* James' teaching ?"... be patient and strengthen your hearts", avoid grumbling "... against one another" as God is watching, and his encouragement for them to look to the prophets for examples of how one might endure with righteousness. Have you experienced or observed this in practice? *Reflect* upon ?God's condemnation of the unjust treatment of workers, the neglect of the welfare of brothers and sisters in Christ when resources would allow one to assist them, and the obsession with wealth that brings arrogance, pride, and selfishness - drawing one away from God and into the values of the world. *Share* an example of the practical implementation of ?James' series of instructions for a solid prayer life. How did God answer such prayers? *Truth in Action* Today I am ?committing to compare and contrast my prayer life with James' instructions. Where I fall short I agree to partner with the Holy Spirit, and at least one fellow believer, to intentionally transform my prayer life. *Be Specific* _____________________________________ ----------------------------------------- Sunday's text will be: ?1 Peter 1:1 - 2:3 ----------------------------------------- -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From tbutler at ofb.biz Fri Dec 11 20:15:10 2009 From: tbutler at ofb.biz (Timothy Butler) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 19:15:10 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college, speech disrupted by arson.) In-Reply-To: References: <4B21D90F.7060406@smalltimer.net> <4B22628C.3090006@bibleseven.com><2F5BB6C9-D006-4BA4-93F4-4DA0C97B8F98@ofb.biz> <4B22E30F.4050700@bibleseven.com> Message-ID: On Dec 11, 2009, at 6:37 PM, Billy Staggs wrote: >> >> Arminius causing the same theological facade - since everyone is >> saved. >> > > I have never heard that Arminius' taught that "everyone is saved". > Hum, I > guess I will need to dig a little deeper. Not that I doubt your > statement, > but could you offer me some link or reference so that I might not in > the > future misrepresent his position. I've never heard Arminius's position represented that way either. It actually seems like universalism is easier to arrive at with Calvin's ideas (though Calvin did not teach universalism) than with Arminius's. Perhaps David is referring to Arminians' view of prevenient (but non- saving) grace being provided to everyone? -Tim From tbutler at ofb.biz Fri Dec 11 20:36:54 2009 From: tbutler at ofb.biz (Timothy Butler) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 19:36:54 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college, speech disrupted by arson.) In-Reply-To: <4B22E30F.4050700@bibleseven.com> References: <4B21D90F.7060406@smalltimer.net> <4B22628C.3090006@bibleseven.com> <2F5BB6C9-D006-4BA4-93F4-4DA0C97B8F98@ofb.biz> <4B22E30F.4050700@bibleseven.com> Message-ID: On Dec 11, 2009, at 6:25 PM, Pastor David wrote: > It is my reading that they both promote error that makes God a liar; > Calvin saying that God "offers" a free will choice for Heaven but > really has fixed-the-game and mandated double > predestination - rendering the sacrifice of Christ an unnecessary > and meaningless charade. Arminius causing the same theological > facade - since everyone is saved. But, I'm trying to drill on your label of heresy. By the definition of heresy used by many, if Calvin and Arminius are teaching heretics, then those like myself who accept one of their theological frameworks (and most Protestants essentially accept one or the other, whether they know the name or not) are damned. Is that what you are saying? > > I am applying "The test of the logical extreme" to evaluate both > philosophies. > > Proponents of both views do amazing "dances" to avoid the inevitable > conclusions of their philosophies - but at the end of the day > predestination is merely warmed-over pagan fatalism and cheap grace > denies the eternal consequences > of sin. So, since the Bible talks about those the Father has called (Jn. 10.25-30), those he appointed [unto belief] (Acts 13.48), those he predestined (Rom. 8.28-30), etc., etc., how do you avoid a doctrine of predestination? (Or the Arminian opposite?) To be clear, no Biblical Calvinist is going to say the sacrifice of Christ is unnecessary. And, predestination really doesn't diminish the atonement; if anything, it enhances it... > Neither philosophy is at all necessary to a right understanding of > the Word of God - I know that because God says so - He included > *everything* we need in His Word and neither Calvin or Arminius are > mentioned nor were they invited to author one of His Books. Any Bible passages to support that everything we need is in his Word (and not, on the other hand, that everything in his Word are things we need -- a key difference)? > > > The best Biblical scholarship begins and ends with the Word of God - > any external template dooms one to error - God says so. And, hence, we arrive back at translations. Hey, old debates never die... One has two choices: Use a translation. This entails depending on translators, who in turn depended on other ANE texts, study of classical languages, studies of classical works that help us understand those languages, lexicons, etc., to arrive at a text bound to our present cultural-linguistic framework. Take any current translation and present it to people a century ago, and at least parts of it will be obscured. Likely true going forward a hundred years too. -or- Use the originals. This entails depending on other ANE texts, study of classical languages, studies of classical works that help us understand those languages, lexicons, etc., to arrive at an understanding. If we stick only to the Bible, we cannot read the Bible, because we won't know what letters on a page mean. God speaks into particular historical contexts in particularly historically rooted ways. I'm not sure how we can ever hope to understand them ahistorically. -Tim PS: I hope you know I'm not trying to give you a hard time; I do enjoy a good theological debate, however. From dodds at conmergence.com Fri Dec 11 20:56:30 2009 From: dodds at conmergence.com (Ed Dodds) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 19:56:30 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Linux4christians Digest, Vol 68, Issue 25 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6984d82a0912111756w7dab521ara663e2bbfd772eb6@mail.gmail.com> Financial Peace University is a possibility; car repair; household repair, etc. > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 09:50:41 +1000 > From: Dave Powell > To: linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > Subject: [Linux4christians] Getting unbelievers to Church? > Message-ID: > ? ? ? ?<9c0d10fd0912111550i3235d93eg968bb294900181d3 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > *I got a good topic.... > > My small group at Church is going through a group study based on the > book the Man Code. ?The Man Code is: ...................* > * > Because of the 120 and the LACK of men doing anything in MOST > churches, we're deciding to organize a mens event at the Church. ?Now > I need ideas! ?What would get you to a event at a Church?? ?What would > get non Christians?? ?What would be a great title for the event??* > > I'm not sure about this "Man Code" book thingie. Haven't heard of it before > so I can't comment on it. There is one thing, though, that caught my eye in > the above comments IE the question about getting men (unbelievers) along to > church. I do appreciate the good will there but I do think we will be > flogging a dead horse in that venture. People are generally not interested > in "going to church" for meaningful reasons. Just for the usual tradition > and "doing the right thing" reasons, and then only on a once or twice a year > basis. > Hebrews 10 tells us that "Church" is for Christians not unbelievers and > really unbelievers can't worship as they are "dead". I know that flies in > the face of decades of church tradition, and tradition in some matters may > be right, but we need to follow the scriptures first. > The structure in the obove mentioned book seems to be a bit like the Matthew > 28 great commission - starting with home base gradually spreading out to the > whole world so if that's what it is about I could go with that. > > Instead of asking how can we get unbelievers into church we should ask how > can we get the believers out into the world (in the world but not of it type > thing). Believers are frightened to be know as Christians - they will talk > about church but not Jesus, that is too threatening. People in the world > want to know if you care about them. Sin is all about questioning God's > goodness. Satan questioned God's goodness to Eve and people want to see that > God's people do care for them. That then reflects on God and people get a > good idea of Him. > > While we are out there we need to remember that it is the Holy Spirit's job > to convert and our job to witness (not necessarily by words either). Many of > us feel failures if we don't come home with some knotches on our guns. If we > have been faithful in holiness unto the Lord, (especially in this world), we > have been successful. > > My suggestion is to find ways to get your men, in groups, to invite > unbelievers to be in their social circle and later on there will be > opportunities to speak one's faith to them. The need of the hour is not to > speak about the Cross (upfront) as that is a meaningless Church tradition to > the general public now-a-days. Our societies on both side of the big water > is based on the death principle of evolution so - if we are a product of > countless deaths where is the value in one more death. We need now to start > with the story of Christ the creator and bring in the aspect of > responsibility to Him and them Christ the Saviour has value. > > Evangelism is best done in the field where the crop is to be picked. I have > always had John Mackay from Creation Research (Aus) come to my churches and > the meetings always grew. After one meeting a radio announcer told me "the > stations' yours" he was that impressed. There is a lot of good medicine out > there but pain killers, while having an effect on, won't heal a broken bone. > It is the relevance of the message that is important. > > Hope this has not been too long winded - but then I'm a preacher, hey. > > - and Fred, keep making noises, just make sure they are useful. We Ausies > have lost that world famous larrikin "up your nose with a rubber hose" > attitude and retreated into silence. Sad. > > > Kind regards > Rev Dave Powell (Home) Ph No. 07 4635 0204 or 0405 450 259 > Bible Methodist Church - Kilcoy > www.thebmca.org > > President Darling Downs Christian Conventions Inc > > Be kinder than necessary. Everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. > You never know when a moment and a few sincere words can have an impact on a > life for a life. From mwmcmlln at mnsi.net Sat Dec 12 01:03:30 2009 From: mwmcmlln at mnsi.net (Mike McMullin) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 01:03:30 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college, speech disrupted by arson.) In-Reply-To: <2F5BB6C9-D006-4BA4-93F4-4DA0C97B8F98@ofb.biz> References: <4B21D90F.7060406@smalltimer.net> <4B22628C.3090006@bibleseven.com> <2F5BB6C9-D006-4BA4-93F4-4DA0C97B8F98@ofb.biz> Message-ID: <1260597810.9610.3.camel@P-733-Lin.MWMCMLLN-CA> On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 17:50 -0600, Timothy Butler wrote: > On Dec 11, 2009, at 9:17 AM, Pastor David wrote: > > > BTW: I still believe that based on the Bible Calvin and Arminius > > both promulgated Biblical heresy, as does the > > RC religious-political entity. > > Just out of curiosity, do you mean you think both Calvin and Arminius > were teaching things that are damnable? Or are you using a broader > definition of heresy? I'm curious as to what they said that would be Heretical. From hpp3 at lavabit.com Sat Dec 12 01:54:03 2009 From: hpp3 at lavabit.com (hpp3 at lavabit.com) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 01:54:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college, speech disrupted by arson.) In-Reply-To: References: <4B21D90F.7060406@smalltimer.net> <4B22628C.3090006@bibleseven.com> <2F5BB6C9-D006-4BA4-93F4-4DA0C97B8F98@ofb.biz> <4B22E30F.4050700@bibleseven.com> Message-ID: <6374.38.100.225.206.1260600843.squirrel@lavabit.com> > > On Dec 11, 2009, at 6:25 PM, Pastor David wrote: > >> It is my reading that they both promote error that makes God a liar; >> Calvin saying that God "offers" a free will choice for Heaven but >> really has fixed-the-game and mandated double >> predestination - rendering the sacrifice of Christ an unnecessary >> and meaningless charade. Arminius causing the same theological >> facade - since everyone is saved. > > But, I'm trying to drill on your label of heresy. By the definition > of heresy used by many, if Calvin and Arminius are teaching heretics, > then those like myself who accept one of their theological frameworks > (and most Protestants essentially accept one or the other, whether > they know the name or not) are damned. Is that what you are saying? The last time I went to the internet to look up this very subject, I found something amusing... Put "Calvinism" or "Arminianism" coupled with the word "heresy" in the search engine of your choice, and you will find hundreds, if not thousands of sites whose results add a little 'spice' to your query... The word "damnable". I laughed, then I cried, then I prayed. Personally I am so sick of the predestination vs. free will debate that I'll not touch that subject again for a very long time. I understand what God did for me and why, and that's good enough for me. I'm sure there will be quite enough time to ask him to explain everything when I am standing in his glorious presence for eternity. From newsybits at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 02:40:38 2009 From: newsybits at gmail.com (Dave Powell) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 17:40:38 +1000 Subject: [Linux4christians] Being in the Bride of Christ Message-ID: <9c0d10fd0912112340y7544631dof094ae5c3c901815@mail.gmail.com> Greetings again Not sure of your name (htgage3) Thanks for your reply to my posting. In your reply you said, "Which you do, I don't know now, but I will in the future". I'm not sure what you meant by that, maybe you left out a word or two or maybe you are not sure if you are in the Bride of Christ. Maybe you could tell me what you meant. In regards to me being a Methodist, I don't recall making mention of that as part of my argument, however, If you read our statement of beliefs you will notice that we also don't approve of the ordination of women. You need to realise that there are many Methodists and Calvinists groups around that are not related to each other and usually tweek their doctrine to suite some modern day guru. You made the mistake of swiping all "Methodists" with the same brush. We get that a lot. For your information I am not Calvinist where most of the BMC Church, including my senior Pastor, is and we work well together. It seems to me that you may be getting lost in hair splitting detail where the Scripture doesn't. You are either born or not, a Christian or not and therefore a Bride or not. It is no more complicated than that. In fact in Revelation we read Rev 3:16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. This points out that god has no in between stage like partial birth. It's in or out and the letters of John reveal a great level of assurence that is available for the Christian. I have just come from an emergency trip to a hospital, some two hrs. west from here. I was called to visit an old lady (in her 80s) who was suicidal. She gets this way each Christmas as each Christmas she is again confronted with the death of her two sons and this Christmas also the death of her beloved sister who for many years gave her comfort at each Christmas. God gave me the right Ps (103) and some follow up words to encourager her no end. She hugged me most sincerely in thanks. This is where ones theology is found to have substance. We can get so tied up in "failing to see the forest for the trees" that we lose usefulness in practical ministry. Having said these things I am one that likes details and sees the necessity of details being right, but have learnt that detail on it's own doesn't make the whole story. Any way May God richly bless you in your search for truth. Kind regards Rev Dave Powell (Home) Ph No. 07 4635 0204 or 0405 450 259 Bible Methodist Church - Kilcoy www.thebmca.org President Darling Downs Christian Conventions Inc Be kinder than necessary. Everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. You never know when a moment and a few sincere words can have an impact on a life for a life. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newsybits at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 02:49:03 2009 From: newsybits at gmail.com (Dave Powell) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 17:49:03 +1000 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college, speech disrupted by arson.) Message-ID: <9c0d10fd0912112349k19e6def9lb08fd242139c3a02@mail.gmail.com> Greetings Tim You make mention that you didn't know that Arminius taught that everyone was saved, well that is because he didn't. Arminius was a Calvinist teaching in a Calvinist university and was called on to defend Calvinism against the teaching of, I think, the Anna-Baptists. It has been some decades since studying this point. He then compared Calvinism and this "heretical" teaching with the Bible and turfed out Calvinism. His teaching became know as Arminiusism. Kind regards Rev Dave Powell (Home) Ph No. 07 4635 0204 or 0405 450 259 Bible Methodist Church - Kilcoy www.thebmca.org President Darling Downs Christian Conventions Inc Be kinder than necessary. Everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. You never know when a moment and a few sincere words can have an impact on a life for a life. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fmiller at lightlink.com Sat Dec 12 11:58:17 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 11:58:17 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] About Fred: In-Reply-To: <4B226582.8060601@bibleseven.com> References: <4B2247C0.5020801@thelinuxlink.net> <6dd08b10912110601u8abc1cet5d2134faa0805d7f@mail.gmail.com> <4B226582.8060601@bibleseven.com> Message-ID: <4B23CBA9.9080508@lightlink.com> On 12/11/2009 10:30 AM, Pastor David wrote: > We have men serving their wives Valentine's dinner, men serving young > men by teaming with them to teach them some skill or to mentor them > where they'd like to improve a skill, and men doing projects in the > community - first for believers and then for non-believers in order to > earn the right to be heard for Christ. One thing that might draw more of the men in the church, AND others, is to have a number of sessions on survival......financial and physical. I believe that very soon we will have hyper-inflation, and shortages.....notably food shortages. Find a brother who is VERY well versed in these areas. It's a great opportunity to strengthen the bonds between the men of the church, some to make new bonds, and hopefully bring some to Christ. > > As for the numbers thing -- be very careful as the propensity is for > people to get lost in the symbols in > order to not have to deal with the issues. Good point! Fred -- SOCIALISM is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. -Winston Churchill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fmiller at lightlink.com Sat Dec 12 12:11:24 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 12:11:24 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college, speech disrupted by arson.) In-Reply-To: <4B21D90F.7060406@smalltimer.net> References: <4B21D90F.7060406@smalltimer.net> Message-ID: <4B23CEBC.60906@lightlink.com> On 12/11/2009 12:30 AM, David Ormand wrote: [snip] > Now, the Catholics are at least honest enough to > say, "and the traditions of the church". Truth is, > all of us bring our traditions to the Bible. With > Southern Baptists, it has been "No Drinking" (and > yes, "no dancing, no card-playing" and maybe a few > more "no's", too. Oh, and my fav - "no divorced > men as pastors or deacons"). This "No Drinking" > goes so far as to have preachers expositing from > the pulpit that "Jesus only drank unfermented > grape juice." > > These traditions come out of our histories. We > need to acknowledge the extent to which our > denominational histories influence our interpretation > of the Bible. Good point. Where some "traditions" fail is when people start to read the Scriptures for themselves, then they find out that not all that has been handed down is based on the Word. There IS ample justification for not allowing a divorced man as a pastor. Drinking.....wine in particular, is another story. Being a good Baptist boy I was raised thinking it was not good as well. Being served grape juice, when Christ served wine at the last supper, bothered me as a kid and young adult, because his example was wine, NOT grape juice nor what was called "new wine." Remember now, "new wine" was only available for a very short time only once a year. The rest of the time, the ONLY thing to drink from the grape was wine. Now, here's the limit.....drunkenness. That is ALL that is condemned. Fred -- SOCIALISM is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. -Winston Churchill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fmiller at lightlink.com Sat Dec 12 13:38:28 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 13:38:28 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Getting unbelievers to Church? In-Reply-To: <9c0d10fd0912111550i3235d93eg968bb294900181d3@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c0d10fd0912111550i3235d93eg968bb294900181d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B23E324.8080306@lightlink.com> On 12/11/2009 06:50 PM, Dave Powell wrote: > /I got a good topic.... > > My small group at Church is going through a group study based on the > book the Man Code. The Man Code is: .................../ > / > Because of the 120 and the LACK of men doing anything in MOST > churches, we're deciding to organize a mens event at the Church. Now > I need ideas! What would get you to a event at a Church?? What would > get non Christians?? What would be a great title for the event??/ > > I'm not sure about this "Man Code" book thingie. Haven't heard of it > before so I can't comment on it. There is one thing, though, that > caught my eye in the above comments IE the question about getting men > (unbelievers) along to church. I do appreciate the good will there but > I do think we will be flogging a dead horse in that venture. People > are generally not interested in "going to church" for > meaningful reasons. Just for the usual tradition and "doing the right > thing" reasons, and then only on a once or twice a year basis. > Hebrews 10 tells us that "Church" is for Christians not unbelievers > and really unbelievers can't worship as they are "dead". I know that > flies in the face of decades of church tradition, and tradition in > some matters may be right, but we need to follow the scriptures first. > The structure in the obove mentioned book seems to be a bit like the > Matthew 28 great commission - starting with home base gradually > spreading out to the whole world so if that's what it is about I could > go with that. > > Instead of asking how can we get unbelievers into church we should ask > how can we get the believers out into the world (in the world but not > of it type thing). Believers are frightened to be know as Christians - > they will talk about church but not Jesus, that is too threatening. > People in the world want to know if you care about them. Sin is all > about questioning God's goodness. Satan questioned God's goodness to > Eve and people want to see that God's people do care for them. That > then reflects on God and people get a good idea of Him. > > While we are out there we need to remember that it is the Holy > Spirit's job to convert and our job to witness (not necessarily by > words either). Many of us feel failures if we don't come home with > some knotches on our guns. If we have been faithful in holiness unto > the Lord, (especially in this world), we have been successful. > > My suggestion is to find ways to get your men, in groups, to invite > unbelievers to be in their social circle and later on there will be > opportunities to speak one's faith to them. The need of the hour is > not to speak about the Cross (upfront) as that is a meaningless Church > tradition to the general public now-a-days. Our societies on both side > of the big water is based on the death principle of evolution so - if > we are a product of countless deaths where is the value in one more > death. We need now to start with the story of Christ the creator and > bring in the aspect of responsibility to Him and them Christ the > Saviour has value. > > Evangelism is best done in the field where the crop is to be picked. I > have always had John Mackay from Creation Research (Aus) come to > my churches and the meetings always grew. After one meeting a radio > announcer told me "the stations' yours" he was that impressed. There > is a lot of good medicine out there but pain killers, while having an > effect on, won't heal a broken bone. It is the relevance of the > message that is important. > > Hope this has not been too long winded - but then I'm a preacher, hey. > > - and Fred, keep making noises, just make sure they are useful. We > Ausies have lost that world famous larrikin "up your nose with a > rubber hose" attitude and retreated into silence. Sad. > It has happened ALL over the world. It's the "creeping crud" - liberalism, being politically correct (how I hate that!), making sure you don't injure someone's ego by telling them the truth. Yeah right! The truth is the truth. Make sure it's heard often even if it's only your voice. Man can condemn you and do whatever to you. God will take care of evil doers and others who are milk toast about His Word in His time. We are to continue to spread the good news AND what His dictates are for how we are to live until the day He comes to take us home. Fred -- SOCIALISM is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. -Winston Churchill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fmiller at lightlink.com Sat Dec 12 13:57:14 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 13:57:14 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] remove me from the list In-Reply-To: <4B22696B.1000102@thelinuxlink.net> References: <20091211065122.13144sq2jrcyxb0q@webmail6.oi.com.br> <20091211153634.GA2515@chris-laptop.a2hosting.com> <4B22696B.1000102@thelinuxlink.net> Message-ID: <4B23E78A.9060902@lightlink.com> On 12/11/2009 10:46 AM, l4c wrote: [snip] > Hey, speaking of Thunderbrd, have any of you started using the 3.X > client yet? I stuck it on my mac on release night (yes, I have a mac > too) but I am not entirely sure I actually *like* the new features yet. Linc, what's new in that release? 'Still using 3.0b4 here. Fred -- SOCIALISM is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. -Winston Churchill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tbutler at ofb.biz Sat Dec 12 14:46:39 2009 From: tbutler at ofb.biz (Timothy Butler) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 13:46:39 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college, speech disrupted by arson.) In-Reply-To: <6374.38.100.225.206.1260600843.squirrel@lavabit.com> References: <4B21D90F.7060406@smalltimer.net> <4B22628C.3090006@bibleseven.com> <2F5BB6C9-D006-4BA4-93F4-4DA0C97B8F98@ofb.biz> <4B22E30F.4050700@bibleseven.com> <6374.38.100.225.206.1260600843.squirrel@lavabit.com> Message-ID: <69C50A25-4BE3-4FEA-B0D2-2F72E4EE56A9@ofb.biz> On Dec 12, 2009, at 12:54 AM, hpp3 at lavabit.com wrote: > The last time I went to the internet to look up this very subject, I > found > something amusing... > Put "Calvinism" or "Arminianism" coupled with the word "heresy" in the > search engine of your choice, and you will find hundreds, if not > thousands > of sites whose results add a little 'spice' to your query... > > The word "damnable". > > I laughed, then I cried, then I prayed. > Personally I am so sick of the predestination vs. free will debate > that > I'll not touch that subject again for a very long time. Indeed. I should be clear, I don't think either Calvinism or Arminianism is heretical. I have "my side" in the debate, but using the definition of heresy as a "damnable teaching," I'd assert neither is. That is what I was trying to understand about David's position. -Tim From tbutler at ofb.biz Sat Dec 12 14:52:38 2009 From: tbutler at ofb.biz (Timothy Butler) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 13:52:38 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college, speech disrupted by arson.) In-Reply-To: <9c0d10fd0912112349k19e6def9lb08fd242139c3a02@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c0d10fd0912112349k19e6def9lb08fd242139c3a02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9CC74548-EAF1-4B0F-B4EB-5BAE1032CBD5@ofb.biz> On Dec 12, 2009, at 1:49 AM, Dave Powell wrote: > Greetings Tim > You make mention that you didn't know that Arminius taught that > everyone was saved, well that is because he didn't. > Arminius was a Calvinist teaching in a Calvinist university and was > called on to defend Calvinism against the teaching of, I think, the > Anna-Baptists. It has been some decades since studying this point. > He then compared Calvinism and this "heretical" teaching with the > Bible and turfed out Calvinism. His teaching became know as > Arminiusism. Yes, that was my sense of Arminius, too. While I don't agree with Arminius's conclusions, I think your point is apt. He sounds much more "Calvinist" than some of his latter-day interpreters. I don't feel like I can make any claim to being an "expert" on Arminius, but I was surprised to see a claim that he taught universalism. Thanks for chiming in. I saw in your other post your mention of your Bible Methodist colleagues being Calvinists. It is nice to hear of some Methodists of Reformed and Arminian persuasions working together as Wesley and Whitfield did at the beginning! -Tim From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Sat Dec 12 15:02:38 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 15:02:38 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college, speech disrupted by arson.) In-Reply-To: <9c0d10fd0912112349k19e6def9lb08fd242139c3a02@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c0d10fd0912112349k19e6def9lb08fd242139c3a02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B23F6DE.7000003@bibleseven.com> Who told you that? Where is it documented? Which seminaries are teaching this new view of religious history? The assertion is that what is taught in most Bible colleges and seminaries as "Arminianism" is falsely labeled? If true this, of course, does not mean that what is known as "Arminianism" does not remain a real and Biblically- inaccurate teaching, it merely would mean that the label needs to be changed. It ignores the reality of two opposing and false doctrines which dominate much of Biblically-related philosophy; that of fatalism, and that of cheap-grace for all. This is an undeniable reality - and one that has confused believers for far too long. > Dave Powell wrote: > Greetings Tim > You make mention that you didn't know that Arminius taught that everyone > was saved, well that is because he didn't. > Arminius was a Calvinist teaching in a Calvinist university and was > called on to defend Calvinism against the teaching of, I think, the > Anna-Baptists. It has been some decades since studying this point. He > then compared Calvinism and this "heretical" teaching with the Bible and > turfed out Calvinism. His teaching became know as Arminiusism. > > Kind regards > Rev Dave Powell (Home) Ph No. 07 4635 0204 or 0405 450 259 > Bible Methodist Church - Kilcoy > www.thebmca.org > > President Darling Downs Christian Conventions Inc > > Be kinder than necessary. Everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. > You never know when a moment and a few sincere words can have an impact > on a life for a life. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Linux4christians mailing list > Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From fmiller at lightlink.com Sat Dec 12 15:37:29 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 15:37:29 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Answering a "Replacement Theology" Critic Message-ID: <4B23FF09.1080706@lightlink.com> *Answering a "Replacement Theology" Critic * by Gary DeMar "My primary problem with the Preterist view," Robert Heidler, a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary writes, "is that it is a blatant example of replacement theology." If you want to end a debate over eschatology when you can't make a cogent biblical case for your position, just charge your opponent with holding to replacement theology. What is "replacement theology," sometimes called "supersessionism"? Here's a typical dispensational definition: . . . Continue Reading -- SOCIALISM is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. -Winston Churchill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tbutler at ofb.biz Sat Dec 12 15:47:42 2009 From: tbutler at ofb.biz (Timothy Butler) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 14:47:42 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college, speech disrupted by arson.) In-Reply-To: <4B23F6DE.7000003@bibleseven.com> References: <9c0d10fd0912112349k19e6def9lb08fd242139c3a02@mail.gmail.com> <4B23F6DE.7000003@bibleseven.com> Message-ID: <8D1E2BFC-3768-4813-A94A-E2EF64C70D41@ofb.biz> On Dec 12, 2009, at 2:02 PM, Pastor David wrote: > Who told you that? > > Where is it documented? > > Which seminaries are teaching this new view of religious > history? I've never heard anyone (other than you) claim a universalist perspective on Arminius, so I'd say the burden of documentation falls to you (seriously -- I don't mean that as an attack). I can say I've read plenty of books on the subject and NEVER has ANY of them claimed Arminius was a universalist. I hold a degree in Religious Studies and never heard that claim, and why would a secular program distort Arminius to make him sound "worse" -- it'd make more sense to argue he was a pluralist... Likewise, I attend a Reformed seminary and it NEVER claims Arminius is universalist. Universalism is actually contrary to the point of Arminianism and its emphasis on free will. Are you sure you are not confusing the Arminian understanding of prevenient grace with saving grace? Feel free to respond to my questions on how you alternately handle things to avoid the alleged false philosophies most Christians hold. I mean this with all due respect, but I don't think it is fair to attack the majority of believers as holding heretical doctrines and not even really bother to provide a substantiated claim or Biblical alternative. A good starting point for a better dialogue, I think, would be to start on sola Scriptura. I see no evidence the Reformers felt this meant that nothing outside of Scripture was useful. Nor, do I see any Biblical support for that. If my assumption here is true, then the first attack on Calvin (and, for that matter, Arminius) would likewise be untrue. Surely we can disagree without broad brush painting pf large portions of Christianity as heretical, can't we? -Tim From l4c at thelinuxlink.net Sat Dec 12 17:48:50 2009 From: l4c at thelinuxlink.net (l4c) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 17:48:50 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] remove me from the list In-Reply-To: <4B23E78A.9060902@lightlink.com> References: <20091211065122.13144sq2jrcyxb0q@webmail6.oi.com.br> <20091211153634.GA2515@chris-laptop.a2hosting.com> <4B22696B.1000102@thelinuxlink.net> <4B23E78A.9060902@lightlink.com> Message-ID: <4B241DD2.9020506@thelinuxlink.net> Fred A. Miller wrote: > On 12/11/2009 10:46 AM, l4c wrote: > > [snip] > >> Hey, speaking of Thunderbrd, have any of you started using the 3.X >> client yet? I stuck it on my mac on release night (yes, I have a mac >> too) but I am not entirely sure I actually *like* the new features yet. > > Linc, what's new in that release? 'Still using 3.0b4 here. > > Fred http://www.mozillamessaging.com/en-US/thunderbird/ It has tabs and a new search feature and an "archive" and smart folders. -- -Linc Fessenden In the Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Sat Dec 12 21:26:47 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 21:26:47 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] =?utf-8?b?4oCtMSBQZXRlciAxOjEgLSAyOjMgKFN1bmRh?= =?utf-8?q?y=29?= Message-ID: <4B2450E7.7010006@bibleseven.com> *?1 Peter 1:1 - 2:3 (Sunday)* *?Commentary* ?Peter begins by addressing the immediate intended recipients as ".... those temporarily residing abroad (in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, the province of Asia, and Bithynia)". as well as noting that his audience is believers. He includes also a benediction "May grace and peace be yours in full measure!" "?1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy he gave us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead," "?1:4 that is, into an inheritance imperishable, undefiled, and unfading. It is reserved in heaven for you, 1:5 who by God?s power are protected through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." ?[Note: Peter reaffirms the assurance of our salvation. Once truly saved one is eternally saved.] "?1:6a This brings you great joy," ?[Note: This is not the same thing as "happiness" which depends upon momentary earthly circumstances but is a more soul-level spiritually-discerned joy, certain of our salvation to an eternity in perfection with God's family.] "?1:6b ... although you may have to suffer for a short time in various trials. 1:7 Such trials show the proven character of your faith, which is much more valuable than gold ? gold that is tested by fire, even though it is passing away ? and will bring praise and glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed." ?[Note: God, through Peter, again uses an illustration which would be familiar, readily comprehended, and powerful among his audience.] "?1:8 You have not seen him, but you love him. You do not see him now but you believe in him, and so you rejoice with an indescribable and glorious joy, 1:9 because you are attaining the goal of your faith ? the salvation of your souls." ?[Note: Faith is ultimately a soul-level trust in the unseen, perhaps even the un-seeable; while some "believed" as a result of meeting Jesus and observing His miracles, others did not, the difference occurred at a soul-level rather than merely in their emotions and intellects. Peter also affirms here the singularity of the relationship between faith and salvation.] "?1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who predicted the grace that would come to you searched and investigated carefully. 1:11 They probed into what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating when he testified beforehand about the sufferings appointed for Christ and his subsequent glory. 1:12 They were shown that they were serving not themselves but you, in regard to the things now announced to you through those who proclaimed the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven ? things angels long to catch a glimpse of." ?[Note: We are to recognize God's consistent message and His reliability; He said through His prophets that Jesus the Christ - The Messiah - would come and He made it so.] "?1:13 Therefore, get your minds ready for action by being fully sober, and set your hope completely on the grace that will be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed." ?[Note: This is not about being free of alcohol or other toxic substances, though it surely includes that, but instead refers to clear thinking and to an actively- reflective mind-set in pursuit of truth - or rephrased - poised to recognize and to accept it. It also is intended to ward-off the efforts of the Judaisers to re-impose legalist and works.] "?1:14 Like obedient children, do not comply with the evil urges you used to follow in your ignorance, 1:15 but, like the Holy One who called you, become holy yourselves in all of your conduct, 1:16 for it is written, ?You shall be holy, because I am holy.? 1:17 And if you address as Father the one who impartially judges according to each one?s work, live out the time of your temporary residence here in reverence." ?[Note: Peter exhorts his readers to step-up to their new identity in-Christ. He also reminds them that they have a new "home address" in Heaven and they are now only visitors here - transforming their perspective.] "?1:18a You know that from your empty way of life inherited from your ancestors" ?[Note: Peter recollects Ecclesiastes and other NT teachings re. the futility of a life of works and a life in the world.] "?1:18 but you were ransomed ? not by perishable things like silver or gold, 1:19 but by precious blood like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb, namely Christ. 1:20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was manifested in these last times for your sake. 1:21 Through him you now trust in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God." ?[Note: Peter re-affirms the deity of Christ as a member of the eternal Trinity, that He "... was manifested in these last times" - Jesus came at CHRISTmas to fulfill His promise to provide a pathway to redemption, and that He would suffer-die-be resurrected in the Easter season, and therefore "... your faith and hope in God" is legitimate.] "?1:22 You have purified your souls by obeying the truth in order to show sincere mutual love. So love one another earnestly from a pure heart. 1:23 You have been born anew, not from perishable but from imperishable seed, through the living and enduring word of God." ?[Note: The "soul" of a human is guaranteed purification at the gates of Heaven; however, one is expected to engage the process of purification while on earth. Peter re-affirms or "born-again" status and the assurance of our salvation.] "?1:24 For all flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of the grass; the grass withers and the flower falls off," ?[Note: Peter reminds his readers of the temporary nature of our earthly existence.] "?1:25 but the word of the Lord endures forever. And this is the word that was proclaimed to you." "?2:1 So get rid of all evil and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander. 2:2 And yearn like newborn infants for pure, spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up to salvation, 2:3 if you have experienced the Lord?s kindness." ?[Note: "... if you have experienced the Lord?s kindness" refers to the efforts of God through believers and other interventions in your life to present the gospel and to issue an invitation to choose salvation. It is, according to the NET translator's notes, in part quoting Psalms 34:8 which paints a word picture of God as like tasty food to the soul. Peter revisits Paul's exhortation for believers to intentionally pursue maturity.] ? *Interaction* *Consider* ?Peter's exhortation that we step-up to our identity in-Christ and that since we have a new "home address" in Heaven and are now only visitors here - our perspective must be transformed. *Discuss* practical ways to ?engage the process of purification while on earth. *Reflect* ?upon Peter's rephrasing of the essentials of the gospel message with the reminder that because of Who Jesus is and who we are due to our intimate relationship with Him we have cause to be confident. *Share* a modern illustration, similar to the purification of gold in the fire, which would accurately illustrate the soul-purifying value of troubles rightly-handled. *Truth in Action* Today I am choosing to identify one area of my life where the Holy Spirit is prompting me to take a step toward greater soul-purity and agree to partner with Him. I will ask a fellow believer to pray in agreement and to also serve as my encourager and accountability partner. *Be Specific* _______________________________________ -------------------------------------- Monday's ?text will be: 1 Peter 2:4-25 -------------------------------------- -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From tbutler at ofb.biz Sat Dec 12 23:18:09 2009 From: tbutler at ofb.biz (Timothy Butler) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 22:18:09 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college, speech disrupted by arson.) In-Reply-To: <8D1E2BFC-3768-4813-A94A-E2EF64C70D41@ofb.biz> References: <9c0d10fd0912112349k19e6def9lb08fd242139c3a02@mail.gmail.com> <4B23F6DE.7000003@bibleseven.com> <8D1E2BFC-3768-4813-A94A-E2EF64C70D41@ofb.biz> Message-ID: <47BC0649-FA55-4F10-9AF4-AC49BFE189E1@ofb.biz> On Dec 12, 2009, at 2:47 PM, Timothy Butler wrote: > I can say I've read plenty of books on the subject and NEVER has ANY > of them claimed Arminius was a universalist. I hold a degree in > Religious Studies and never heard that claim, and why would a > secular program distort Arminius to make him sound "worse" -- it'd > make more sense to argue he was a pluralist... Clarification: what I mean here is that secular Religious Studies -- favoring pluralism and universalism as many in the field do -- would be (most likely) inclined to want to argue someone was universalist, not cover it up. -Tim From newsybits at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 20:47:36 2009 From: newsybits at gmail.com (Dave Powell) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 11:47:36 +1000 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college, speech disrupted by arson.) Message-ID: <9c0d10fd0912131747o443526f0w8e9051b9b7830758@mail.gmail.com> Another comment re alcohol. It is said that Jesus used alcoholic wine at the passover. Not so, as He would have violated the law. At the Passover the Jews were not allowed to have yeast even in the house. They were even ordered to remove it outside for the night. Now is that enough to stop Christians from drinking the stuff? Maybe not but if you want to approve of it you need some other text to do so. It is interesting that where ever the alcoholic type wine is spoken of it in the negative but when ever wine is spoken of it is positive. Don't necessarily read alcohol when reading wine. Merry Christmas all Dave Kind regards Rev Dave Powell (Home) Ph No. 07 4635 0204 or 0405 450 259 Bible Methodist Church - Kilcoy www.thebmca.org President Darling Downs Christian Conventions Inc Be kinder than necessary. Everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. You never know when a moment and a few sincere words can have an impact on a life for a life. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hpp3 at lavabit.com Mon Dec 14 08:28:02 2009 From: hpp3 at lavabit.com (hpp3 at lavabit.com) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 08:28:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college, speech disrupted by arson.) In-Reply-To: <9c0d10fd0912131747o443526f0w8e9051b9b7830758@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c0d10fd0912131747o443526f0w8e9051b9b7830758@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <60387.64.40.60.200.1260797282.squirrel@lavabit.com> > Another comment re alcohol. It is said that Jesus used alcoholic wine at > the > passover. Not so, as He would have violated the law. At the Passover the > Jews were not allowed to have yeast even in the house. They were even > ordered to remove it outside for the night. Now is that enough to stop > Christians from drinking the stuff? Maybe not but if you want to approve > of > it you need some other text to do so. It is interesting that where ever > the > alcoholic type wine is spoken of it in the negative but when ever wine is > spoken of it is positive. Don't necessarily read alcohol when reading > wine. > Merry Christmas all > Dave > Kind regards > Rev Dave Powell (Home) Ph No. 07 4635 0204 or 0405 450 259 > Bible Methodist Church - Kilcoy > www.thebmca.org > > President Darling Downs Christian Conventions Inc > > Be kinder than necessary. Everyone you meet is fighting some kind of > battle. > You never know when a moment and a few sincere words can have an impact on > a > life for a life. > > _______________________________________________ > Linux4christians mailing list > Linux4christians at thelinuxlink.net > http://www.thelinuxlink.net/mailman/listinfo/linux4christians > > I'm a teetotaller myself, so I have no problem with shunning the firewater, but I have to ask: All theology aside, where would anybody be able to get unfermented grape juice in the springtime? I'm not familiar with the agricultural cycle in the middle eastern region, but I assume that grapes from any area of the world that experiences seasons do not ripen until the latter part of the summer/early fall (at least they don't here in the great Pacific Northwest). So without the benefit of refrigerated storage, and the fact that the yeast responsible for turning grape juice into wine is present on the skin of the grape itself, where did they get plain ol' grape juice? Just askin'... -Eddy From l4c at thelinuxlink.net Mon Dec 14 08:28:07 2009 From: l4c at thelinuxlink.net (l4c) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 08:28:07 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college, speech disrupted by arson.) In-Reply-To: <9c0d10fd0912131747o443526f0w8e9051b9b7830758@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c0d10fd0912131747o443526f0w8e9051b9b7830758@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B263D67.9010503@thelinuxlink.net> Dave Powell wrote: > Another comment re alcohol. It is said that Jesus used alcoholic wine at > the passover. Not so, as He would have violated the law. At the Passover > the Jews were not allowed to have yeast even in the house. They were > even ordered to remove it outside for the night. Now is that enough to > stop Christians from drinking the stuff? Maybe not but if you want to > approve of it you need some other text to do so. It is interesting that > where ever the alcoholic type wine is spoken of it in the negative but > when ever wine is spoken of it is positive. Don't necessarily read > alcohol when reading wine. > Merry Christmas all > Dave > Kind regards > Rev Dave Powell (Home) Ph No. 07 4635 0204 or 0405 450 259 > Bible Methodist Church - Kilcoy > www.thebmca.org > > President Darling Downs Christian Conventions Inc > > Be kinder than necessary. Everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. > You never know when a moment and a few sincere words can have an impact > on a life for a life. I am not going to invest a lot into this conversation and probably will not even reply any further, however, I believe that this entire idea of non alcoholic wine is complete malarkey. Wine is wine and grape juice is grape juice. You also have to remember that thousands of years ago, there were no refrigerators and fermentation was not only a way to *keep* your beverage, but, it was a way to have something safe to drink a well as fermentation kills off a lot of harmful bacteria. As for this whole Jewish thing, I grew up in NY with quite a few of them and saw first hand (taken from wikipedia): Four cups of wine There is a Rabbinic requirement that four cups of wine (or grape juice) are to be drunk during the seder. This applies to both men and women. The Mishnah says (Pes. 10:1) that even the poorest man in Israel has an obligation to drink. Each cup is connected to a different part of the seder: the first cup is for Kiddush, the second cup is connected with the recounting of the Exodus, the drinking of the third cup concludes Birkat Hamazon and the fourth cup is associated with Hallel. From newsybits at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 19:34:24 2009 From: newsybits at gmail.com (Dave Powell) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 10:34:24 +1000 Subject: [Linux4christians] Getting Unbelievers to Church Message-ID: <9c0d10fd0912131634s60aadbfag2dbc910ef5ab3347@mail.gmail.com> Greetings Fred You said in response to my posting: It has happened ALL over the world. It's the "creeping crud" - liberalism, being politically correct (how I hate that!), making sure you don't injure someone's ego by telling them the truth. Yeah right! The truth is the truth. Make sure it's heard often even if it's only your voice. Man can condemn you and do whatever to you. God will take care of evil doers and others who are milk toast about His Word in His time. We are to continue to spread the good news AND what His dictates are for how we are to live until the day He comes to take us home. Well, a bit of "creeping crud", and "Milk Toast..." you say. As I read your words Fred you seem to be a bit hard in your presentation of truth but maybe you missed my point. You "hate" liberalism as do I and all forms of political correctness. These are soul destroying and cause people to retreat into "I have no opinion" type attitude incase they get sued. If we don't care if we "injure someone's ego" it may refelct that we care more for our own selves than the one we are trying to win. You know the story, "I got another notch on my Gun today". Truth void of noticeable love will only harden peoples hearts and turn them away. Fred, I would like to think better of you than that. I hope I have misunderstood you. Maybe it is that some misunderstand what liberalism is and isn't. It is not a type of presentation of truth but the devaluing of it. It is when we say that you can decide for yourself what truth is. COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE PREACHING: (doesn't take much time at all) In recent decades Churches have failed to "go" while expecting the unbeliever to "come" and the result is wild rock concerts in Churches so to attract the unbeliever. We don't live in a society where the Biblical world view is respected because the scientist has now "disproved" God. The evolutionist has done a good job on society and the Church seems be be quite oblivious and gets all frustrated when the world doesn't flock into Sunday morning Church. How do we best reach the people who now believe they are a product of death, by telling them about another death of an "irrelevant" Jew of 2000 years ago? Evolution and liberalism has relegated Jesus to "file13" for society today. Now-a-days the traditional approach of preaching, that used to be fruitful, "You wicked sinners turn or burn", has been dealt a death blow by the evolutionist and liberals (for different reasons) and it is the lazy minded church's fault. Christians are always expecting the unbeliever to to come to Church when the Christian should be going to them. Jesus said to go out into the harvest. Any of the readers of this please tell me when was the last time you actually spoke to an unbeliever about anything to do with the Gospel. I do think we need to be much more economical with our speaking and speak to the questions that are relevant to the doors that are open for communication today. Speaking truthful words does not necessarily equate with the communication of TRUTH. It may be a whole lot of hot air we just expelled. PROVEN PRODUCTIVE PREACHING: (it does take time) On how to present the Gospel we need to take notice of New Tribes Mission and their approach for we are dealing with a "civilised" version of the "savages" of the wild. (Yes I hated to use the word savages but the point is there). New Tribes don't start with speaking about Jesus but Creation through to Jesus and with much fruit. It places the story of Jesus and the cross in it's divine context. Our respective societies are no better than the people New Tribes preach to. To those who mention about preaching the gospel to the unbelievers in Church already - well now, isn't that a given. There are children, husbands and wives (and some preachers) etc who need saving. The whole programme of the Church should be to disciple all to saving faith but these unbelievers are there because they have to be, in most cases. I am not talking about the "home grown" unbeliever but those "out there" by the countless million that Jesus described as the field. We need to knock on their door. Hold outreach meetings in their setting not primarily on the Church property, even if we do have the latest u-bute sound system. You plant the seed in the soil not the silo. Numerous people slip into hell every minute while the Church fights and argues over who has the best presentation of truth and isn't that then all about us rather than THE TRUTH. Ask yourself this question "What I do, how well is it working"? God bless your efforts. Kind regards Rev Dave Powell (Home) Ph No. 07 4635 0204 or 0405 450 259 Bible Methodist Church - Kilcoy www.thebmca.org President Darling Downs Christian Conventions Inc Be kinder than necessary. Everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. You never know when a moment and a few sincere words can have an impact on a life for a life. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dlormand at smalltimer.net Mon Dec 14 13:08:53 2009 From: dlormand at smalltimer.net (David Ormand) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 11:08:53 -0700 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college, speech disrupted by arson.) Message-ID: <4B267F35.2030502@smalltimer.net> > Another comment re alcohol. It is said that Jesus used alcoholic wine at the > passover. Not so, as He would have violated the law. At the Passover the > Jews were not allowed to have yeast even in the house. They were even > ordered to remove it outside for the night. Now is that enough to stop > Christians from drinking the stuff? Maybe not but if you want to approve of > it you need some other text to do so. It is interesting that where ever the > alcoholic type wine is spoken of it in the negative but when ever wine is > spoken of it is positive. Don't necessarily read alcohol when reading wine. 1. News to me that alcoholic wine was not served at seder. From what I see, there are a number of cups (4?) passed around at the seder with "wine", presumably poured from a bottle that can be obtained at kosher stores. Bottles that look like wine bottles, not "grape juice" bottles. I guess I'd like to have a certified Jew read on this. Acknowledge the prohibition against "leaven", did not suspect this extended to "alcohol" in wine (alcohol != leaven). 2. Even if I grant the point on Passover, the idea that Jesus did not drink alcoholic wine is hard to square with things like the Miracle at Cana, unless we are to believe that those teetotalling first-century Jews never drank alcohol, even at wedding feasts. Unless we interpret this as "Jesus created the wine, but didn't drink it". But then, He would have created alcohol for others to drink, thereby inducing them to sin, if drinking alcohol is a sin. Or the accusations of Jesus being a "winebibber and glutton", unless the Pharisees defined "winebibber" as "one who drinks a lot of grape juice". Yes, you're right, "Don't necessarily read alcohol when reading wine", but I and the young people I teach have had this idea that "Jesus didn't drink alcohol" pushed at us for a long time, apparently spawned by a local denominational prohibition against alcohol, and we just don't buy it in the light of Scripture and logic. Your argument that "wine != alcohol when Jesus drank it at passover" sounds a lot like these Southern Baptist arguments pushed on us over the years to justify a Southern Baptist prejudice. From tbutler at ofb.biz Mon Dec 14 14:20:22 2009 From: tbutler at ofb.biz (Timothy Butler) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 13:20:22 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college, speech disrupted by arson.) In-Reply-To: <9c0d10fd0912131747o443526f0w8e9051b9b7830758@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c0d10fd0912131747o443526f0w8e9051b9b7830758@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Dec 13, 2009, at 7:47 PM, Dave Powell wrote: > Another comment re alcohol. It is said that Jesus used alcoholic > wine at the passover. Not so, as He would have violated the law. At > the Passover the Jews were not allowed to have yeast even in the > house. They were even ordered to remove it outside for the nigh Did anyone actually drink grape juice during that time? Without Welch's handy dandy pasteurization process, I don't know how one would keep the grapes safe and unfermented. -Tim From fmiller at lightlink.com Mon Dec 14 18:28:33 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 18:28:33 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Getting Unbelievers to Church In-Reply-To: <9c0d10fd0912131634s60aadbfag2dbc910ef5ab3347@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c0d10fd0912131634s60aadbfag2dbc910ef5ab3347@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B26CA21.4060304@lightlink.com> On 12/13/2009 07:34 PM, Dave Powell wrote: > Greetings Fred > You said in response to my posting: > It has happened ALL over the world. It's the "creeping crud" - > liberalism, being politically correct (how I hate that!), making sure > you don't injure someone's ego by telling them the truth. Yeah right! > The truth is the truth. Make sure it's heard often even if it's only > your voice. Man can condemn you and do whatever to you. God will take > care of evil doers and others who are milk toast about His Word in His > time. We are to continue to spread the good news AND what His dictates > are for how we are to live until the day He comes to take us home. > > Well, a bit of "creeping crud", and "Milk Toast..." you say. As I read > your words Fred you seem to be a bit hard in your presentation of > truth but maybe you missed my point. > > You "hate" liberalism as do I and all forms of political correctness. > These are soul destroying and cause people to retreat into "I have no > opinion" type attitude incase they get sued. If we don't care if we > "injure someone's ego" it may refelct that we care more for our own > selves than the one we are trying to win. You know the story, "I got > another notch on my Gun today". Truth void of noticeable love will > only harden peoples hearts and turn them away. Fred, I would like to > think better of you than that. I hope I have misunderstood you. You sure did. I'm talking about those who don't condemn sin.....any sin. It's been that and MOSTLY that (liberalism) that has injured Christianity the world over. > > Maybe it is that some misunderstand what liberalism is and isn't. It > is not a type of presentation of truth but the devaluing of it. It is > when we say that you can decide for yourself what truth is. Now you're on the right track. It's NOT following Scripture, either evading it, rewriting it, or eliminating it from Scripture. > > COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE PREACHING: (doesn't take much time at all) > In recent decades Churches have failed to "go" while expecting the > unbeliever to "come" and the result is wild rock concerts in Churches > so to attract the unbeliever. We don't live in a society where the > Biblical world view is respected because the scientist has now > "disproved" God. The evolutionist has done a good job on society and > the Church seems be be quite oblivious and gets all frustrated when > the world doesn't flock into Sunday morning Church. How do we best > reach the people who now believe they are a product of death, by > telling them about another death of an "irrelevant" Jew of 2000 years > ago? Evolution and liberalism has relegated Jesus to "file13" for > society today. 'Sure has, and to a large degree, the "church" as a whole has allowed that to happen.....in some parts of the country more than others. > > Now-a-days the traditional approach of preaching, that used to be > fruitful, "You wicked sinners turn or burn", has been dealt a death > blow by the evolutionist and liberals (for different reasons) and it > is the lazy minded church's fault. Christians are always expecting the > unbeliever to to come to Church when the Christian should be going to > them. Jesus said to go out into the harvest. Any of the readers of > this please tell me when was the last time you actually spoke to an > unbeliever about anything to do with the Gospel. I do think we need to > be much more The other day. > economical with our speaking and speak to the questions that are > relevant to the doors that are open for communication today. Speaking > truthful words does not necessarily equate with the communication of > TRUTH. It may be a whole lot of hot air we just expelled. NOT on my end. ;) > > PROVEN PRODUCTIVE PREACHING: (it does take time) > On how to present the Gospel we need to take notice of New Tribes > Mission and their approach for we are dealing with a "civilised" > version of the "savages" of the wild. (Yes I hated to use the word > savages but the point is there). New Tribes don't start with speaking > about Jesus but Creation through to Jesus and with much fruit. It > places the story of Jesus and the cross in it's divine context. Our > respective societies are no better than the people New Tribes preach to. I don't even begin to know what the answer(s) are, except that I think that telling the truth....the BIBLICAL truth is what should be given on a 1 on 1 situation or a group. One person who's done a great deal in the area is Chuck Colson with his prison ministry. He's a no holds barred Biblical teacher who has a big heart for those incarcerated.....much like an old time preacher who shows the love of Christ. He is VERY effective. > > To those who mention about preaching the gospel to the unbelievers in > Church already - well now, isn't that a given. There are children, > husbands and wives (and some preachers) etc who need saving. The whole > programme of the Church should be to disciple all to saving faith but > these unbelievers are there because they have to be, in most cases. I > am not talking about the "home grown" unbeliever but those "out there" > by the countless million that Jesus described as the field. We need to > knock on their door. Hold outreach meetings in their setting > not primarily on the Church property, even if we do have the latest > u-bute sound system. You plant the seed in the soil not the silo. Absolute right!! What some of the mega-churches have done is to remake the church into what the surrounding community wants it to be. They end up building very large churches who OFTEN don't know what the saving grace of Christ is, let alone all the dictates of Scripture. Joel Olsteen comes to mind. > > Numerous people slip into hell every minute while the Church fights > and argues over who has the best presentation of truth and isn't that > then all about us rather than THE TRUTH. Ask yourself this question > "What I do, how well is it working"? > God bless your efforts. > And, ALL of our efforts! I don't care about the presentation.....I care about the truth....not soft selling it or evading it. Fred -- SOCIALISM is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. -Winston Churchill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fmiller at lightlink.com Mon Dec 14 20:08:08 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 20:08:08 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college, speech disrupted by arson.) In-Reply-To: <4B263D67.9010503@thelinuxlink.net> References: <9c0d10fd0912131747o443526f0w8e9051b9b7830758@mail.gmail.com> <4B263D67.9010503@thelinuxlink.net> Message-ID: <4B26E178.9040606@lightlink.com> On 12/14/2009 08:28 AM, l4c wrote: > Dave Powell wrote: >> Another comment re alcohol. It is said that Jesus used alcoholic wine >> at the passover. Not so, as He would have violated the law. At the >> Passover the Jews were not allowed to have yeast even in the house. >> They were even ordered to remove it outside for the night. Now is >> that enough to stop Christians from drinking the stuff? Maybe not but >> if you want to approve of it you need some other text to do so. It is >> interesting that where ever the alcoholic type wine is spoken of it >> in the negative but when ever wine is spoken of it is positive. Don't >> necessarily read alcohol when reading wine. >> Merry Christmas all >> Dave >> Kind regards >> Rev Dave Powell (Home) Ph No. 07 4635 0204 or 0405 450 259 >> Bible Methodist Church - Kilcoy >> www.thebmca.org >> >> President Darling Downs Christian Conventions Inc >> >> Be kinder than necessary. Everyone you meet is fighting some kind of >> battle. >> You never know when a moment and a few sincere words can have an >> impact on a life for a life. > > I am not going to invest a lot into this conversation and probably > will not even reply any further, however, I believe that this entire > idea of non alcoholic wine is complete malarkey. Wine is wine and > grape juice is grape juice. You also have to remember that thousands > of years ago, there were no refrigerators and fermentation was not > only a way to *keep* your beverage, but, it was a way to have > something safe to drink a well as fermentation kills off a lot of > harmful bacteria. Correct. Further, fermentation HAD to have already started in the juice within 24 hours due to the lack of refrigeration. > > As for this whole Jewish thing, I grew up in NY with quite a few of > them and saw first hand (taken from wikipedia): > > Four cups of wine > > There is a Rabbinic requirement that four cups of wine (or grape > juice) are to be drunk during the seder. This applies to both men and > women. The Mishnah says (Pes. 10:1) that even the poorest man in > Israel has an obligation to drink. Each cup is connected to a > different part of the seder: the first cup is for Kiddush, the second > cup is connected with the recounting of the Exodus, the drinking of > the third cup concludes Birkat Hamazon and the fourth cup is > associated with Hallel. Correct! It's also important to note that before Prohibition, protestant churches from one end of the country to the other served wine for communion. Even though they could have continued doing so, most decided not to because they wanted to support to movement to removing drinking from the public. All of you may want to read up, again, references in Scripture about wedding celebrations. Note, the ONLY thing condemned in Scripture is drunkenness. Fred -- SOCIALISM is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. -Winston Churchill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Mon Dec 14 22:45:27 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:45:27 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=AD1_Peter_3_=28Tuesday=29?= Message-ID: <4B270657.7050202@bibleseven.com> *?1 Peter 3 (Tuesday)* *?Commentary* "3:1 In the same way, wives, be subject to your own husbands. Then, even if some are disobedient to the word, they will be won over without a word by the way you live, 3:2 when they see your pure and reverent conduct." [Note: Peter does not say that the believing wife is to engage in sinful conduct, he is clear that hers must be "pure and reverent conduct", the only one in the relationship who is "disobedient" is the husband who needs to be "won over to the Word."] "3:3 Let your beauty not be external ? the braiding of hair and wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes ? 3:4 but the inner person of the heart, the lasting beauty of a gentle and tranquil spirit, which is precious in God?s sight." [Note: Peter is not forbidding "... the braiding of hair and wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes", he is teaching that believing women should not imagine external appearance to be their true beauty.] "3:5 For in the same way the holy women who hoped in God long ago adorned themselves by being subject to their husbands, 3:6 like Sarah who obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. You become her children when you do what is good and have no fear in doing so." [Note: It was obvious in the OT that the wives of Abraham and Isaac were beautiful as they were the object of the affections of kings in lands through which they traveled such that they were kidnapped. While this is not definitive as to their hair styles, jewelry, or fashion, such have always been part of the initial attraction to men. The key here is that the believing wife treat her husband with honor - which would include not being obsessed about her external appearance nor presenting herself before other men in a provocative manner - such is reserved only for her husband.] "3:7 Husbands, in the same way, treat your wives with consideration as the weaker partners and show them honor as fellow heirs of the grace of life. In this way nothing will hinder your prayers." [Note: Believing husbands are to treat their wives, believing wives or not, with honor - if they want God to honor their prayers. With the rare exception of the OT judge Deborah the males were responsible for leadership and the conduct of warfare, therefore held superior roles of power and would have tended to be physiologically more powerful as well. It is helpful to recall that Christians are called to be "meek", a term which meant power under control, more precisely power under the control of God.] "3:8 Finally, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, affectionate, compassionate, and humble. 3:9 Do not return evil for evil or insult for insult, but instead bless others because you were called to inherit a blessing. 3:10 For the one who wants to love life and see good days must keep his tongue from evil and his lips from uttering deceit." "3:11a And he must turn away from evil and do good;" "3:11b ... he must seek peace and pursue it." "3:12a For the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous and his ears are open to their prayer." "3:12b But the Lord?s face is against those who do evil." "3:13 For who is going to harm you if you are devoted to what is good?" [Note: This is a rhetorical statement which intends to refer to God rather than evil men who will harm Christians an non-Christians alike, regardless of their faith, sometimes merely because they can and for no other reason.] "3:14 But in fact, if you happen to suffer for doing what is right, you are blessed. But do not be terrified of them or be shaken." [Note: "Terror" and "shaken" generally refer to a faith-level fear related to ones eternal circumstances - so Peter warns believers to not be terrified of those who cause them "to suffer for doing what is right" because that only affirms that they are "blessed" with assured salvation.] "3:15 But set Christ apart as Lord in your hearts and always be ready to give an answer to anyone who asks about the hope you possess. 3:16 Yet do it with courtesy and respect, keeping a good conscience, so that those who slander your good conduct in Christ may be put to shame when they accuse you." [Note: There are several elements to observe here: "...set Christ apart as Lord in your hearts" - This is an intentional submission. "... always be ready to give an answer" for "... the hope you possess" - Know your testimony. "... to anyone who asks" - Don't force the conversation, wait for the Holy Spirit to prepare and prompt them. There is no point in a testimony to one whose "ears" are closed. "... do it with courtesy and respect" - Your story is yours, it should not include attacks upon or pejoratives about others, and it should not be designed to manipulate others. Leave the heart- level work to the Holy Spirit of God whose motivations are pure. This does not mean that your testimony may not be passionate - it should be. "... keeping a good conscience" - Generally speaking your hypocrisy will neutralize your otherwise good testimony. "... so that those who slander your good conduct in Christ" - They will not be slandering your hypocrisy, that testifies for itself, the meaning of slander is falsehoods about what you do to honor Christ which serves as a "stumbling block" to those who are in rebellion. "... may be put to shame when they accuse you." - If your testimony for good conduct is not neutralized by hypocrisy then when you are attacked most who observe the attack will recognize that the accuser is in the wrong. "3:17 For it is better to suffer for doing good, if God wills it, than for doing evil." [Note: Sometimes God allows us to function in the role of martyr, suffering before a watching people, falsely accused and mistreated. Not only is the one who attacks seen as doing wrong but your right-response to the false treatment will create an opportunity for the Holy Spirit to bring the gospel to the lost.] "3:18a Because Christ also suffered once for sins," [Note: Our role model is Christ.] "3:18b ... the just for the unjust," [Note: He had no sin, thus He was clearly unjustly mistreated, yet He was used more powerfully to the benefit of others that any martyr in history.] "3:18c ... to bring you to God," [Note: He did so for the same reason, but in our cases to a lesser degree, that He now asks us to bear suffering.] "3:18d ... by being put to death in the flesh" [Note: Some of our suffering will separate us from things of the flesh we value but which are either impediments to our well-being or are necessary sacrifices for the greater good of others though our testimony in our suffering.] "3:18e ... but by being made alive in the spirit." [Note: Just as Jesus was "... made alive in the Spirit" as a result of the death of His flesh in the world, so are we "... being made alive in the spirit" when our flesh is sacrificed for the cause of Christ.] "3:19 In it he went and preached to the spirits in prison, [Note: While Jesus was dead in the flesh, yet alive in the Spirit, He preached to a subset of the dead - see following for a further discussion.] 3:20a after they were disobedient long ago when God patiently waited in the days of Noah as an ark was being constructed. " [Note: Two alternative understandings are greatly debated; I am more comfortable with the NET translator's preference for the reading that Jesus brought the gospel to those who were in Hell due to their pre-Noadic sin and who died in it rather than the suggestion that Peter intends that Jesus preached to the unredeemable fallen angels, since such would appear to be unproductive gloating.] "3:20b In the ark a few, that is eight souls, were delivered through water. 3:21 And this prefigured baptism, which now saves you ? not the washing off of physical dirt but the pledge of a good conscience to God ? through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 3:22 who went into heaven and is at the right hand of God with angels and authorities and powers subject to him." [Note: The saving "baptism" of Jesus is the result of ".. the pledge of a good conscience to God" and nothing related to the physical water. This is a valuable illustration as one notes the linkage to Noah and the other eight, who never even touched the water, nor were they below the waters - what we know as Biblical baptism is a purely symbolic act.] *Interaction* *Consider* the persistent theme of Peter throughout these verses as to the importance of our "good conduct", the testimony of our faith which is viewed by the world through our daily walk. *Discuss* practical ways to always have a ready testimony, when the Holy Spirit prompts someone to ask, and to present it with courtesy and respect. If married discuss practical ways to honor your spouse. *Reflect*? upon God's expectation that we be prepared to handle suffering for our faith and that we trust Him to redeem good from what the enemy intended for evil. *Share* an example of your testimony, or that of someone you know personally, where their response to suffering has been used by God to lead others to salvation or a believer to greater maturity. *Truth in Action* Today I am choosing to review my testimony, do I have one that is brief and clear, courteous and respectful to the listener? I will share my testimony with a fellow believer and ask them to prayerfully reflect with me how it may be heard by someone whom the Holy Spirit has prepared and prompted to ask me to share it. If there is anything about it that may be improved to make it a more useful tool for the Lord, especially anything that draws more attention to me than to the Lord, I will humbly modify it. *Be Specific* ______________________________________ -------------------------------------- Wednesday's text will be: 1 Peter 4-5 -------------------------------------- -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From karl at kleinpaste.org Tue Dec 15 00:35:45 2009 From: karl at kleinpaste.org (Karl Kleinpaste) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 00:35:45 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists In-Reply-To: <9c0d10fd0912131747o443526f0w8e9051b9b7830758@mail.gmail.com> (Dave Powell's message of "Mon, 14 Dec 2009 11:47:36 +1000") References: <9c0d10fd0912131747o443526f0w8e9051b9b7830758@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dave Powell writes: > Another comment re alcohol. It is said that Jesus used alcoholic wine > at the passover. Not so, as He would have violated the law. At the > Passover the Jews were not allowed to have yeast even in the house. The claim is an absurdity on its face. By the time it's alcohol, it is no longer yeast. It has the chemicals in it that used to be yeast, but if that's enough to condemn a man, then on that basis one would condemn all humanity as cannibals because umpty-'leven generations ago, a man fell over dead and unburied in a field that was planted with wheat centuries later long after the body had decomposed to dirt. > if you want to approve of it you need some other text to do so. Ps 104:14,15 [14] He provides grass for the cattle, and crops for people to cultivate, so they can produce food from the ground, [15] as well as *WINE* that makes people feel so good, and so they can have oil to make their faces shine, as well as food that sustains people's lives. [NET, emph.added] The word translated "wine" in v.15 is H3196, yayin (???): "From an unused root meaning to effervesce: wine, as fermented". The LXX supports this equivalently with its use of G3631, oinos (?????), which is simply referred back to H3196. > interesting that where ever the alcoholic type wine is spoken of it in > the negative but when ever wine is spoken of it is positive. Ps 104 is a litany of all the good stuff God does for us. The reference to wine in v.15 explicitly refers to fermented content. If you want to disapprove of it, you need some other text to do so. From fmiller at lightlink.com Mon Dec 14 20:23:41 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 20:23:41 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Simple Blessings of CHRISTmas Message-ID: <4B26E51D.60205@lightlink.com> Simple Blessings of /CHRIST/mas The /simple blessings/ of Christmas are all around us... In the bustle of the season and even in the challenges of life. This Christmas, /*open your heart*/ And don't miss out on a single /*gift God has given you*/... */JOY, PEACE, COMFORT, LOVE/* The simple blessings of Christmas are for everyone. View this NEW devotional Christmas movie from Inspired Faith and share with friends and family for free! To View This Movie ? The *JOY* of Christmas is /JESUS/ /Jesus Christ/ is.... The *message* of all that God has to say to us The *fullness* of all that God has to give us The *essence* of all that God wants us to be. */Jesus/*, the /word/ of God incarnated The /image/ of God revealed The /fullness/ of God imparted The /glory/ of God reflected The /grace/ of God extended The /power/ of God demonstrated The /heart/ of God expressed The /love/ of God manifested The /salvation/ of God provided Send this *free* inspirational Christmas movie. Downloadable screensaver is also available to purchase. Watch and share all 6 of our beautiful, devotional Christmas movies or choose from our complete selection of more than 20 movies. View All Movies ? -- SOCIALISM is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. -Winston Churchill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 30997 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Tue Dec 15 15:05:40 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 15:05:40 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=AD1_Peter_3=3A19-20a_-_Clarif?= =?utf-8?q?ication?= In-Reply-To: <4B270657.7050202@bibleseven.com> References: <4B270657.7050202@bibleseven.com> Message-ID: <4B27EC14.9030807@bibleseven.com> CLARIFICATION - ?1 Peter 3:19-20a I *should* have further qualified my Commentary re. this. There is a powerful debate about the specifics of this text within the scholarly community of Bible students that swirls around the recitation of the Apostles Creed. In the 16th century "hell" meant hades as such, rather than the final state of the lost....as it generally is used today. We also have the varying understanding of the impact of linear time and timelessness as well as the "hades" construct that these are "asleep" prior to the judgment. If one insists upon a timeline of immediate judgment at the moment of death then one still must allow that this is a pre-judgment preaching of Jesus to those who are "on hold" in hades prior to the Great White Throne Judgment. This, of course, begs the question "Is there any other example of Jesus preaching to those "who are asleep" as a post-physical death/pre-judgment form of evangelism or is this an historically-exclusive event with a unique purpose? Or does one take Peter's text as purely rhetorical and not at all intended to be literal? This text, not carefully considered (which tends to be beyond the scope of our current survey-type studies), does create an opportunity for theological mischief in the form of a "third reality of consciousness" between the flesh and eternity - purgatory. Your thoughts? > "3:19 In it he went and preached to the spirits in > prison, > > [Note: While Jesus was dead in the flesh, yet alive in > the Spirit, He preached to a subset of the dead - see > following for a further discussion.] > > 3:20a after they were disobedient long ago when God > patiently waited in the days of Noah as an ark was being > constructed. " > > [Note: Two alternative understandings are greatly > debated; I am more comfortable with the NET translator's > preference for the reading that Jesus brought the gospel > to those who were in Hell due to their pre-Noadic sin and > who died in it rather than the suggestion that Peter > intends that Jesus preached to the unredeemable fallen > angels, since such would appear to be unproductive > gloating.] -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From preston.lists at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 16:23:09 2009 From: preston.lists at gmail.com (Preston Boyington) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 15:23:09 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college, speech disrupted by arson.) In-Reply-To: <4B21D90F.7060406@smalltimer.net> References: <4B21D90F.7060406@smalltimer.net> Message-ID: <4B27FE3D.30704@gmail.com> David Ormand wrote: > > Speaking as a (Southern) Baptist, and one who is > currently studying Calvinism vs. Arminianism, and > has a Reformed Church in America branch in his > neighborhood (which has sparked curiosity leading > to investigation) and having friends in Methodist, > Presbyterian, and Catholic churches, I would say > with confidence that _every single one of us_ would > say we are following the Bible. > > Now, the Catholics are at least honest enough to > say, "and the traditions of the church". Truth is, > all of us bring our traditions to the Bible. With > Southern Baptists, it has been "No Drinking" (and > yes, "no dancing, no card-playing" and maybe a few > more "no's", too. Oh, and my fav - "no divorced > men as pastors or deacons"). This "No Drinking" > goes so far as to have preachers expositing from > the pulpit that "Jesus only drank unfermented > grape juice." > > These traditions come out of our histories. We > need to acknowledge the extent to which our > denominational histories influence our interpretation > of the Bible. I too was raised as a Southern Baptist (my father is also a Deacon) so I am finding the "honest enough" part a little difficult. I believe it is because you haven't read in 1st Timothy 3:2-13. it's where we get our "job description" for our Deacons. minor excerpts include the phrases: "Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well." and "Likewise [must] the deacons [be] grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;" seems to be yet another part of the Bible that Churches are dismissing or playing into the allegorical. many that prefer a 'lower' standard often cite a passage from the gospels that doesn't go into as much detail. I was taught that drinking alcohol was not a sin, although drunkenness is a sin. excess is the enemy. From tbutler at ofb.biz Tue Dec 15 16:35:59 2009 From: tbutler at ofb.biz (Timothy Butler) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 15:35:59 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college, speech disrupted by arson.) In-Reply-To: <4B27FE3D.30704@gmail.com> References: <4B21D90F.7060406@smalltimer.net> <4B27FE3D.30704@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Dec 15, 2009, at 3:23 PM, Preston Boyington wrote: > I too was raised as a Southern Baptist (my father is also a Deacon) > so I > am finding the "honest enough" part a little difficult. I believe > it is > because you haven't read in 1st Timothy 3:2-13. it's where we get our > "job description" for our Deacons. > > minor excerpts include the phrases: > "Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children > and > their own houses well." and "Likewise [must] the deacons [be] grave, > not > doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;" There is some debate one what to do with the "one wife" thing -- I've heard various exegetical arguments on it. I need to dig them up again. I think there is certainly a question as to whether divorce permanently mars someone in such a way that repentacne and full restoration into the body is impossible. I suspect most would want to say "no, it is not impossible to be fully restored into the body of Christ," yet a code prohibiting divorced pastors seems to do that. Food for thought. -Tim From bstaggs at staggs.net Tue Dec 15 17:13:03 2009 From: bstaggs at staggs.net (Billy Staggs) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 16:13:03 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college, speech disrupted by arson.) In-Reply-To: References: <4B21D90F.7060406@smalltimer.net> <4B27FE3D.30704@gmail.com> Message-ID: > There is some debate one what to do with the "one wife" thing -- > I've > heard various exegetical arguments on it. I need to dig them up again. > I think there is certainly a question as to whether divorce > permanently mars someone in such a way that repentacne and full > restoration into the body is impossible. I suspect most would want to > say "no, it is not impossible to be fully restored into the body of > Christ," yet a code prohibiting divorced pastors seems to do that. > > Food for thought. > > -Tim > Impossible to be restored to the Body of Christ, or to hold the office of Pastor? -- Bstaggs <>< From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Tue Dec 15 17:59:50 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:59:50 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] 1 Peter 4-5 (Wednesday) Message-ID: <4B2814E6.2020307@bibleseven.com> *1 Peter 4-5 (Wednesday)* *?Commentary* ?4:1 So, since Christ suffered in the flesh, you also arm yourselves with the same attitude, because the one who has suffered in the flesh has finished with sin, 4:2 in that he spends the rest of his time on earth concerned about the will of God and not human desires. ?[Note: When one discovers that physical appearance and physical pleasure do not result in lasting happiness but joy in the Lord fills the heart endlessly, one experiences a transformation of perspective. Sometimes this comes through an emotional-intellectual-spiritual encounter with God and His Word through the Holy Spirit and sometimes we make it necessary for God to deprive us of appearance, health, and/or the resources to feed our narcissism.] ?4:3 For the time that has passed was sufficient for you to do what the non-Christians desire. You lived then in debauchery, evil desires, drunkenness, carousing, drinking bouts, and wanton idolatries. ?[Note: "... the time that has past" is a phrase Peter uses to draw a line in the life of the believer which clearly separates them from who they were versus who they have become in-Christ.] ?4:4 So they are astonished when you do not rush with them into the same flood of wickedness, and they vilify you. ?[Note: Those who knew you are peers-in-sin now find your sin-resistant spirit a stumbling block which triggers the condemnation of the Law within - so from their rebellious hearts they attack you instead of dealing with their sin.] ?4:5 They will face a reckoning before Jesus Christ who stands ready to judge the living and the dead. ?4:6 Now it was for this very purpose that the gospel was preached to those who are now dead, so that though they were judged in the flesh by human standards they may live spiritually by God?s standards. ?[Note: Some might speculate that Peter was returning to his prior point about Jesus preaching to the "dead" from the day of Noah, but it seems more likely that he is speaking of those who used to be dead in their sin but because of the gospel are now made alive eternally in Christ.] 4:7 For the culmination of all things is near. So be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of prayer. 4:8 Above all keep your love for one another fervent, because love covers a multitude of sins. 4:9 Show hospitality to one another without complaining. 4:10 Just as each one has received a gift, use it to serve one another as good stewards of the varied grace of God. 4:11a Whoever speaks, let it be with God?s words. 4:11b Whoever serves, do so with the strength that God supplies, so that in everything God will be glorified through Jesus Christ. 4:11c To him belong the glory and the power forever and ever. Amen. 4:12 Dear friends, do not be astonished that a trial by fire is occurring among you, as though something strange were happening to you. [Note: Peter wants his readers to avoid the confusion that comes from thinking that their circumstances are unique.] 4:13 But rejoice in the degree that you have shared in the sufferings of Christ, so that when his glory is revealed you may also rejoice and be glad. 4:14 If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory, who is the Spirit of God, rests on you. 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer or thief or criminal or as a troublemaker. [Note: We may never blame God for suffering that results from sinful rebellion, though we may turn away from that sin and ask God to redeem something good from it, even as we accept the worldly consequences.] 4:16 But if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but glorify God that you bear such a name. 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin, starting with the house of God. And if it starts with us, what will be the fate of those who are disobedient to the gospel of God? 4:18 And if the righteous are barely saved, what will become of the ungodly and sinners? 4:19 So then let those who suffer according to the will of God entrust their souls to a faithful Creator as they do good. [Note: Peter warns that God will judge those in the "... house of God" who continue in their sin, yet notes that if they are to be judged - while protected from eternal consequences by grace - what might those not so protected anticipate as their fate?] 5:1 So as your fellow elder and a witness of Christ?s sufferings and as one who shares in the glory that will be revealed, I urge the elders among you: 5:2 Give a shepherd?s care to God?s flock among you, exercising oversight not merely as a duty but willingly under God?s direction, not for shameful profit but eagerly. [Note: Peter exhorts "elders", spiritual leaders, to assure that the integrity of the teaching of the gospel, discipleship (including discipline), and care-giving to believers is maintained. They are to do so without drawing attention to themselves nor accepting more compensation - which diverts funds that might otherwise go to the care of the needy and/or to evangelism and discipleship - than necessary.] 5:3 And do not lord it over those entrusted to you, but be examples to the flock. 5:4 Then when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that never fades away. [Note: Every leader is a peer "child of God" with every other believer. Arrogance and bullying is not acceptable. leaders are to lead-first from the example of their lives, embodying the "fruits of the Spirit.] 5:5a In the same way, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. [Note: Just as elders/leaders are to be subject to the Holy Spirit those who are younger in spiritual maturity - regardless of chronological age - are to submit to those who are more spiritually mature.] 5.5b And all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble. [Note: Peter challenged everyone to live with humble spirits as the tendency of "the old man", the flesh in this world, is toward pride.] 5:6 And God will exalt you in due time, if you humble yourselves under his mighty hand 5:7 by casting all your cares on him because he cares for you. [Note: Peter reminds his readers that ours is a loving God with all power - we trust everything to Him because He wants to bless us - and He is already aware of our needs. When we don't cast all our cares on God we come to either resent God or look to ourselves or to fellow humans for answers - guaranteed imperfect answers.] 5:8 Be sober and alert. Your enemy the devil, like a roaring lion, is on the prowl looking for someone to devour. [Note: Peter alerts his readers to the reality of spiritual warfare, a genuine evil enemy, and our need to be on our guard against him.] 5:9 Resist him, strong in your faith, because you know that your brothers and sisters throughout the world are enduring the same kinds of suffering. [Note: Peter reminds that we have the authority to resist the enemy and we are expected to do so. He does not suggest that we will not suffer in the struggle, any more that any army is without injuries in a battle, but he affirms that we hold the superior hand in-Christ. He wants his readers to remember that their struggles are in common with other believers "throughout the world".] 5:10 And, after you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace who called you to his eternal glory in Christ will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you. 5:11 To him belongs the power forever. Amen. [Note: God allows our suffering to mature us and to serve as a witness to our faith - then He steps in and demonstrates His loving power.] 5:12 Through Silvanus, whom I know to be a faithful brother, I have written to you briefly, in order to encourage you and testify that this is the true grace of God. Stand fast in it. 5:13 The church in Babylon, chosen together with you, greets you, and so does Mark, my son. 5:14 Greet one another with a loving kiss. Peace to all of you who are in Christ. *Interaction* *Consider?* that when one discovers that physical appearance and physical pleasure do not result in lasting happiness but joy in the Lord fills the heart endlessly, one experiences a transformation of perspective. Sometimes this comes through an emotional-intellectual-spiritual encounter with God and His Word through the Holy Spirit and sometimes we make it necessary for God to deprive us of appearance, health, and/or the resources to feed our narcissism.] *Discuss& ?some practical ways ?to "... be self-controlled and sober-minded" (see verses 4:7-11a) *Reflect* upon Peter's challenge to leaders in 5:1-3. Do you observe these characteristics in your leaders? Have you prayed for them? Have you thanked them for honoring the Word in this way? *Share* a practical example of your submission to leaders who are faithful to God's expectations in the text of 5:1-3. *Truth in Action* Today I am choosing to "be sober and alert" to the enemy who "... is on the prowl looking for someone to devour" and to "resist him, strong in your faith". I will review the teaching of Paul re. "Putting on the full armor of God" and discover where you fall short - then I will partner with the Holy Spirit to shore-up my spiritual defenses. *Be Specific* ________________________________________ ----------------------------------- Thursday's text will be: 2 Peter 1 ----------------------------------- -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From fmiller at lightlink.com Tue Dec 15 18:58:10 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 18:58:10 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] French army sides with Mozilla in email war Message-ID: <4B282292.9000607@lightlink.com> A new email client unveiled by Mozilla this week contains code from an unusual source -- the French military, which decided the open source product was more secure than Microsoft's rival Outlook. ............ The Gendarmerie Nationale police, which was part of the military at the time and did the design, released some of its work to the public under the name "TrustedBird," and co-branded it with Mozilla. The military uses Mozilla's Thunderbird mail software and in some cases the Trustedbird extension on 80,000 computers and it has spread to the ministries of Finance, Interior and Culture. ................ The French government is beginning to move to other open source software , including Linux instead of Windows and OpenOffice instead of Microsoft Office. Story- http://www.smh.com.au/technology/biz-tech/french-army-sides-with-mozilla-in-email-war-20091211-kn3k.html -- SOCIALISM is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. -Winston Churchill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fmiller at lightlink.com Wed Dec 16 00:12:45 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 00:12:45 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] During a recent............ Message-ID: <4B286C4D.8020609@lightlink.com> During a recent password audit at work, it was found that a blonde was using the following password: MickeyMinniePlutoHueyLouieDeweyDonaldGoofySacramento When asked why such a long password, she said she was told that it had to be at least 8 characters long and include at least one capital. -- SOCIALISM is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. -Winston Churchill From fmiller at lightlink.com Wed Dec 16 00:28:29 2009 From: fmiller at lightlink.com (Fred A. Miller) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 00:28:29 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college, speech disrupted by arson.) In-Reply-To: References: <4B21D90F.7060406@smalltimer.net> <4B27FE3D.30704@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B286FFD.4060208@lightlink.com> On 12/15/2009 05:13 PM, Billy Staggs wrote: > > > >> There is some debate one what to do with the "one wife" thing -- >> I've >> heard various exegetical arguments on it. I need to dig them up again. >> I think there is certainly a question as to whether divorce >> permanently mars someone in such a way that repentacne and full >> restoration into the body is impossible. I suspect most would want to >> say "no, it is not impossible to be fully restored into the body of >> Christ," yet a code prohibiting divorced pastors seems to do that. >> >> Food for thought. >> >> -Tim >> >> > Impossible to be restored to the Body of Christ, or to hold the office of > Pastor? > Let me run 2 REAL LIFE situations that I personally know about. In the 1st case, the husband decided he like men better and paid for the divorce. What about her standing.....already know about him. 2nd case where the husband is abusive AND molests their daughter.....she had no choice but to divorce him. What is her standing now? I believe I know the answer(s) but I want to hear from the group. Fred -- SOCIALISM is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. -Winston Churchill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Wed Dec 16 08:12:37 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:12:37 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college, speech disrupted by arson.) In-Reply-To: <4B286FFD.4060208@lightlink.com> References: <4B21D90F.7060406@smalltimer.net> <4B27FE3D.30704@gmail.com> <4B286FFD.4060208@lightlink.com> Message-ID: <4B28DCC5.5080709@bibleseven.com> Someone needs to post the specific verses from which they argue that the text establishes a legal barrier to one who has been divorced serving in leadership. Once that is on the table we may then consider the context of that text, and the teaching of the Bible (not mere extra-Biblical human teaching), about grace and law as it must be applied to every application. PD > On 12/15/2009 05:13 PM, Billy Staggs wrote: >> >> >> >>> There is some debate one what to do with the "one wife" thing -- >>> I've >>> heard various exegetical arguments on it. I need to dig them up again. >>> I think there is certainly a question as to whether divorce >>> permanently mars someone in such a way that repentacne and full >>> restoration into the body is impossible. I suspect most would want to >>> say "no, it is not impossible to be fully restored into the body of >>> Christ," yet a code prohibiting divorced pastors seems to do that. >>> >>> Food for thought. >>> >>> -Tim >>> >>> >> Impossible to be restored to the Body of Christ, or to hold the office of >> Pastor? >> > > Let me run 2 REAL LIFE situations that I personally know about. In the > 1st case, the husband decided he like men better and paid for the > divorce. What about her standing.....already know about him. 2nd case > where the husband is abusive AND molests their daughter.....she had no > choice but to divorce him. What is her standing now? I believe I know > the answer(s) but I want to hear from the group. > > Fred > > -- > SOCIALISM is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance > and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal > sharing of misery. -Winston Churchill -- Have an http://Ultrafidian.com Day! Pastor David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senior Pastor (Interim) Bethel Missionary Baptist http://bethelstatesboro.org (new site pending) Bible Commentary & Daily Reflection-Action-Devotional http://bibleseven.com/b7/b7studies.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From bstaggs at staggs.net Wed Dec 16 11:29:48 2009 From: bstaggs at staggs.net (Billy Staggs) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:29:48 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college, speech disrupted by arson.) In-Reply-To: <4B286FFD.4060208@lightlink.com> References: <4B21D90F.7060406@smalltimer.net> <4B27FE3D.30704@gmail.com> <4B286FFD.4060208@lightlink.com> Message-ID: Fred, Let me add another element to the discussion, what about someone who was divorced prior to becoming a Christian? I once was defending someone's qualification for an office who was in just such a situation (divorced before conversion) and I was quickly reminded by an elder Christian that "the Bible doesn't say that". While I conceded out of respect, I do believe that a Biblical case could be made for such an allowance. Here are the Scripture references that I believe to be the ones most often used to determine the qualifications for Bishops, Deacons and or Elders (emphasis are my own): (1 Timothy 3:1-7 - KJV) 1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. (1 Timothy 3:8-13 - KJV) 8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; 9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. 11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. (Titus 1:5-9 - KJV) 5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: 6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. 7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; 8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; 9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. Here are the references that I used regarding someone who was divorced prior to conversion. (Psalm 103:11-12 - KJV) 11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him. 12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 - KJV) 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. I think one would be remiss to not also consider the Biblical teaching on diverse in general, such as: (Luke 16:18 - KJV) 18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery. Please don't infer from this that I am dead set against divorced persons from holding an office in the Church. I have knowingly sat under a Pastor who both he and his wife had been divorced in the past. (Though it caused several members to leave the Church, the elder Christian I mentioned above for one.) And I belong to a denomination that under certain circumstances (subject to approval of the governing body) allows divorced persons to hold offices. However I hope & pray that anyone within the Body of Christ charged with making decisions on such matters, does so in light of what God's Word has to say. Just glad it's not me. :-) I have a good friend who felt so strongly about this that when his wife left him in his early twenties (100% her idea), he has remained unmarried to this day (he is now 48). Interesting discussion. -- bstaggs <>< _____ From: linux4christians-bounces at thelinuxlink.net [mailto:linux4christians-bounces at thelinuxlink.net] On Behalf Of Fred A. Miller Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 11:28 PM To: Linux for Christians Subject: [SPAM] Re: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college, speech disrupted by arson.) On 12/15/2009 05:13 PM, Billy Staggs wrote: There is some debate one what to do with the "one wife" thing -- I've heard various exegetical arguments on it. I need to dig them up again. I think there is certainly a question as to whether divorce permanently mars someone in such a way that repentacne and full restoration into the body is impossible. I suspect most would want to say "no, it is not impossible to be fully restored into the body of Christ," yet a code prohibiting divorced pastors seems to do that. Food for thought. -Tim Impossible to be restored to the Body of Christ, or to hold the office of Pastor? Let me run 2 REAL LIFE situations that I personally know about. In the 1st case, the husband decided he like men better and paid for the divorce. What about her standing.....already know about him. 2nd case where the husband is abusive AND molests their daughter.....she had no choice but to divorce him. What is her standing now? I believe I know the answer(s) but I want to hear from the group. Fred -- SOCIALISM is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. -Winston Churchill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From l4c at thelinuxlink.net Wed Dec 16 11:40:53 2009 From: l4c at thelinuxlink.net (l4c) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 11:40:53 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college, speech disrupted by arson.) In-Reply-To: References: <4B21D90F.7060406@smalltimer.net> <4B27FE3D.30704@gmail.com> <4B286FFD.4060208@lightlink.com> Message-ID: <4B290D95.7050102@thelinuxlink.net> Billy Staggs wrote: > *the husband > of one wife*, Is everyone completely sure that this is pertaining to divorce and not polygamy, which was quite commonplace in the day? Besides, the Bible does outline some good reasons for divorce, would they be the exception to the "husband of one wife" clause, or would you be excluded from ministry (as Deacon / Pastor) if you remarried because your spouse was unfaithful or died? I wonder what the Catholics think of this since none of their pastors are married to "one wife" at all. Do you think that passage works in reverse? Do you have to be married to your one wife in order to qualify for being a Deacon or are you excluded on the basis of being single? Hrmm... --Linc. From bstaggs at staggs.net Wed Dec 16 12:10:46 2009 From: bstaggs at staggs.net (Billy Staggs) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 11:10:46 -0600 Subject: [Linux4christians] Baptists (was Re: Ex-Muslim's college, speech disrupted by arson.) In-Reply-To: <4B290D95.7050102@thelinuxlink.net> References: <4B21D90F.7060406@smalltimer.net><4B27FE3D.30704@gmail.com> <4B286FFD.4060208@lightlink.com> <4B290D95.7050102@thelinuxlink.net> Message-ID: <80894760A95B43F7B9326495454954BC@chchq.net> > Is everyone completely sure that this is pertaining to divorce and not > polygamy, which was quite commonplace in the day? I for one am not. > Besides, the Bible > does outline some good reasons for divorce, would they be the exception > to the "husband of one wife" clause, or would you be excluded from > ministry (as Deacon / Pastor) if you remarried because your spouse was > unfaithful or died? > I wonder what the Catholics think of this since none of their pastors > are married to "one wife" at all. Do you think that passage works in > reverse? Do you have to be married to your one wife in order to qualify > for being a Deacon or are you excluded on the basis of being single? Based on the following Scriptures I don't believe that it is required to be married to hold such an office. (1 Corinthians 7:1-2 - KJV) 1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. (1 Corinthians 7:6-9 - KJV) 6 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment. 7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that. 8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. 9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. > > Hrmm... > > --Linc. From pastordavid at bibleseven.com Wed Dec 16 12:47:39 2009 From: pastordavid at bibleseven.com (Pastor David) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 12:47:39 -0500 Subject: [Linux4christians] Divorce & Leadership [Was: Baptists] In-Reply-To: <80894760A95B43F7B9326495454954BC@chchq.net> References: <4B21D90F.7060406@smalltimer.net><4B27FE3D.30704@gmail.com> <4B286FFD.4060208@lightlink.com> <4B290D95.7050102@thelinuxlink.net> <80894760A95B43F7B9326495454954BC@chchq.net> Message-ID: <4B291D3B.6070605@bibleseven.com> 1. There is no evidence that Timothy, or Paul for that matter, was married at the time of their service - so marriage cannot be a perquisite for leadership. 2. As the quoted text clearly states 100% of what occurred prior to salvation belongs to a dead person - the only one trying to hold that against the one whom GOD *made new* is the "accuser" the devil. (Which means that any human doing so is siding with the devil rather than with God.) 3. Even as a Christian the Bible reluctantly allows for divorce. Keep in mind that God's moral preference is that every believer live sin-free, whether married, single, or divorced. If the "sin" of divorce excludes one from service than all other sins also exclude one, therefore no one could serve in leadership. Selective application is real poor scholarship! 4. I have always found it to be evidence of the hypocrisy of tradition-over-truth that one may have been a rapist or an axe-murderer or a drug-dealer or a pedophile or have engaged in all manner of sexually-immoral conduct prior to salvation (and perhaps even